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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711390
02/04/18 09:16 AM
02/04/18 09:16 AM
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After playing this instrument, and compared to AvantGrand, what would you consider to be a fair street price?

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Pete14] #2711391
02/04/18 09:23 AM
02/04/18 09:23 AM
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Keysticks on most pianos, digital and acoustic, are numbered!

Originally Posted by Pete14
It seems like manufacturers differ in terms of what ‘idiosyncrasies’ are worth replicating. For example, Casio omitted the simulated escapement effect, and still they claim that their Celviano’s note-repetition surpasses that of a real piano. Of course, they’re not using a real grand piano action, but still it’s a step in that direction.
Kawai included a damper mechanism and -naturally occurring- escapement. Alpha also has real escapement, but omitted the damper mechanism. The new sensor system in the Alpha actually requires hammers to strike string-like sensors. So yes, the Alpha has felt hammers (I assume these will need to be replaced and/or maintained at some point). Perhaps in the case of the Alpha the hammers are essential; although I wonder if using a different material for the hammer heads (synthetic) would’ve been more practical and therefore maintenance free.


The celviano isn't really a hybrid though, note repetition seems to be a bit of a marketing thing as well. If anything cheaper DP actions tend to be better as the static weight of the system is proportionally greater than the overall inertia which means a faster return.

With the alpha, the sensors seem to be pretty soft, I doubt they will cut into the felt like piano strings too. Also even if the ends eventually get flattened a bit I'm not sure that makes much difference, the alpha is simply picking up velocity. Worn hammers affect tone on acoustics.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Frédéric L] #2711392
02/04/18 09:25 AM
02/04/18 09:25 AM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Curious you dislike the N1 action. I have tested it and was very found of it. It is quite firm. Perhaps that’s what you dislike.

As I hinted at in my write up, it could have been my fault, not the action’s. It could be that I’m simply not used to a real grand action, so it “felt” strange. And I played “cold”, so that could also have been the reason for my problems in fast passages. I could have tested again, but I’m not really interested in the Avant Grands right now. They are outdated and too expensive compared with the NV10 (even the outdated N2 is still 2600€ more than the NV10 and I expect that the eventual N2X will be even more expensive - and it doesn’t even exist yet).

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711393
02/04/18 09:28 AM
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I felt $12k street, give or take, would be well-positioned in the market. You can always see if your dealer has room to move on that, too.

If you really like the action of the AG N1/N2, don't mind the old sound engine (zero resonance, etc.) And can get them at discount, then the NV10 will seem expensive and not worth it.

But if you felt the AG action wasn't for you, the question is if you would pay a ~10-20% premium for an action you really like and modern sound engine, and that might be an outright bargain.

Real and sale prices on these hybrids vary so much that I suspect there will be some people getting NV10s for cheaper than they can get an N2 locally.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711395
02/04/18 09:32 AM
02/04/18 09:32 AM
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Orange County, California
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Originally Posted by Pete14
After playing this instrument, and compared to AvantGrand, what would you consider to be a fair street price?


Good question. It will be 12K here in the US to start I think. At least one dealer said that to me. Is it worth 4K more over the AvantGrand N2? I guess that depends on the individual. It's certainly newer, has better digital technology I guess. The action? Won't know until I try it when it comes in the store. This can be tricky because we often like things not because we like them, because we want to like them and rationalize reasons to do so.

I really like the action of the N2, it's consistent with what I practice with at the music school. But the school seems biased towards Yamaha. So when I go to test the NV10, I may be biased and try to find reasons to not like it, to justify the Yamaha I have now laugh


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2711412
02/04/18 11:20 AM
02/04/18 11:20 AM
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France
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
What it doesn't feel like is a light, airy action on an Shigeru or Bosendorfer 214/280. Could it be better? Sure


OK what you are trying to say here is that the action of the Novus is kinda heavy and it's not so enjoyable to play. Why can't they make a pleasant, light action ? It's not like they couldn't do it, technically.

Last edited by Cosi; 02/04/18 11:21 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711415
02/04/18 11:31 AM
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I can't speak for you, but that isn't what I am saying at all.

If you play on a GL, GX, a Yamaha CxX, a M&H, or anything else, you may absolutely love the Novus action (I actually do love it, it's downright fantastic). I just happen to have the privilege of playing some amazing grands that are far it of my league, and note that the Novus doesn't feel identical to those (why should it?).

I don't think at all that it is "practice" grade action, unless a 7ft GX-5 is only good as a practice instrument?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711419
02/04/18 11:53 AM
02/04/18 11:53 AM
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France
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I just edited my message. Practice is not a good argument, my teacher have a Wilh.Steinberg grand and the action is very heavy, and it's not her practice instrument. But she "had" to choose a heavy action because she plays on many different instruments for her concerts. I never played Yamaha or Kawai grands, only the Schimmel of my previous teacher years ago which was kinda sluggish, and the Steinberg of my present teacher and I'm not a fan, this is very heavy for me, but good for control. I just need to find a Novus somewhere to try it I guess, just hoping it will not be too stiff and heavy for me.

Last edited by Cosi; 02/04/18 12:02 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2711423
02/04/18 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

6. I've spent a similar amount of time with the Avent Grands before and like Jobert, I was surprised to not really care for the action. It is stiffer than a typical Yamaha Grand like a C3X, the keydip felt shallow, and I came away thinking it felt way more like an NU1 action than any grand I have ever played.


I think that's a very interesting point. Yamaha have not, to my knowledge at least, stated a specific grand mechanism from which their AvantGrand action is taken. That does make me suspect that it was put together specifically for the AvantGrands, and as such you have to question the extent to which it is a real grand action. The NV10 explicitly uses the Millennium III action, and from your description, does indeed feel like a GL-30 acoustic grand which uses that action.

From what you and Jobert have said, it seems that Kawai have once again taken the lead on keyboard action. Now they just need to sort out marketing, distribution and electronics. laugh


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711431
02/04/18 01:10 PM
02/04/18 01:10 PM
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Seems rather unlikely that yamaha would have made a new parts for a line as small as the AGs. I can't see why it wouldn't be the same action as used in their grands.

However the keysticks on the AGs are pretty short, plus the hammer/counterweight balance might be adjusted slightly to account for the lack of dampers. The regulation may be different too.

Similarly with the top end shigeru the action should be the same, however on a 9ft EX the key-sticks are necessarily rather long and SKs may well be regulated to a more exacting standard. Particularly a hybrid like a novus will be expected to last years without maintenance and as such the regulation cannot be as exact as a piano that is going to get attention before every performance, but the same applies to smaller 'every day' grands as well.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: karvala] #2711432
02/04/18 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
From what you and Jobert have said, it seems that Kawai have once again taken the lead on keyboard action. Now they just need to sort out marketing, distribution and electronics. laugh


And quality control of course smile..

I find Kawai's pianos themselves are really great - I am a big fan. I own Kawai CA67 and I have recommended it to several friends/online. But the quality control and the business side seem so disorganized. NV10 US pricing PR mess at NAMM is one example. All different Kawai regional sites have their own websites - which are subpar comapred to Kawai global site - especially look at Kawai US website. Kawai Europe and other 'local' Kawai subsidiaries seem to create their own play-only PR material for internet (which doesn't make any sense given it is world-wide Internet!) - why isn't there a single Youtube channel giving the best information?

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 02/04/18 01:29 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711433
02/04/18 01:12 PM
02/04/18 01:12 PM
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PianoManChuck reviews Novus NV10 and is his 'Pick Of The Year' for Hybrid piano category. He says MSRP is $16K...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ags7o029Fk

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 02/04/18 01:19 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711486
02/04/18 04:52 PM
02/04/18 04:52 PM
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While I agree with the sentiments of many on here in regards to the sound of the AvantGrand, I have to disagree on the action. I owned an N1 in 2011, then bought an RX-2 in 2013, then had to downsize due to kids back to the N1. It feels just like an Acoustic, as it should. Nearly all action parts are what you find in other Yamaha acoustic grands. It is lighter than the action was on my Kawai. Actions are subjective and acoustic actions vary enormously between brands and age, prep, etc. while I personally think the NV10 is a better instrument than the N1/N2 due to the sound engine, all else is basically at parity with Yamaha’s nearly 10 year old tech (Yamaha AvantGrand N3 launched in 2008). This is no knock on Kawai either.

Last edited by PianoZac; 02/04/18 04:54 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711505
02/04/18 05:55 PM
02/04/18 05:55 PM
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I mostly agree with PianoZac. There isn't any real indication that Yamaha's is using anything other than a real grand action in the AG, and I'm sure it's just as authentic as Kawai's. Most differences will be due to preference at this point.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711535
02/04/18 07:38 PM
02/04/18 07:38 PM
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Well, to be fair, it's not like acoustic piano action has seen drastic changes in the past 10/20 years. If Yamaha's action was authentic when the AG series first came out, there's no reason why it should feel outdated today (sound engince is another story). I remember playing a C3 and an N3 side by side a couple of years ago, and they felt quite similar.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711582
02/05/18 01:24 AM
02/05/18 01:24 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello JoBert,

Thank you very much for your extremely detailed post. I'm obviously delighted to read that you enjoyed playing the NV10 - congratulations on your purchase!

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Osho] #2711584
02/05/18 01:31 AM
02/05/18 01:31 AM
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Hello Osho,

Originally Posted by Osho
Kawai Europe and other 'local' Kawai subsidiaries seem to create their own play-only PR material for internet (which doesn't make any sense given it is world-wide Internet!) - why isn't there a single Youtube channel giving the best information?


May I ask you to clarify what you mean by "play-only PR material"?

Also, I established a Kawai Pianos Global YouTube channel a few months ago intended for hosting non-Japanese videos created by Kawai Japan. I handed responsibility over to one of my colleagues in order to concentrate on some other projects, however perhaps I should think about preparing some videos myself - any thoughts/suggestions?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2711588
02/05/18 03:06 AM
02/05/18 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Osho,

Originally Posted by Osho
Kawai Europe and other 'local' Kawai subsidiaries seem to create their own play-only PR material for internet (which doesn't make any sense given it is world-wide Internet!) - why isn't there a single Youtube channel giving the best information?


May I ask you to clarify what you mean by "play-only PR material"?

I mean videos that are primarily just playing the Piano - so they do not have any language needing translation.

Originally Posted by Kawai James

Also, I established a Kawai Pianos Global YouTube channel a few months ago intended for hosting non-Japanese videos created by Kawai Japan. I handed responsibility over to one of my colleagues in order to concentrate on some other projects, however perhaps I should think about preparing some videos myself - any thoughts/suggestions?

Kind regards,
James
xc


My suggestion would be that there is a single youtube channel for all 'official' Kawai PR material - with translations/dubbing for videos that are in different language.

If one searches for Kawai Novus NV10 on youtube, there are videos from Kawai Europe, Kawai Spain (the same video that is on Kawai Pianos Global - even though it needs no translation!), Kawai Russia (where your voice is dubbed in russian!) and of course Kawai Globals.

It almost seems there is no cohesive strategy on how to market Kawai vidoes globally - every local regional subsidiary is free to choose what they want.

This was also evident in more serious matters than PR, e.g. the whole NV10 MSRP mess for US market at NAMM.

Basically, there doesn't really seem collaboration/communication with Kawai Japan and the regional subsidiaries.

Osho

PS: I am sorry we are going a little off-topic here.

Last edited by Osho; 02/05/18 03:06 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2711593
02/05/18 04:08 AM
02/05/18 04:08 AM
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Osho, thank you for your reply.

You raise some interesting points, however, as you say this is veering somewhat off-topic, so it's probably best if I respond to you via a PM.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2711660
02/05/18 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
8. The 20k price from NAMM isn't a thing. All the dealers i talked to who have ordered the nv10 have been consistent even before NAMM on price being in the $12k ballpark (some say a little more, some a little less) so I think the higher list price is just a way to display a big discount to the buyer.

Did the dealers say $12K street or MSRP price?

Thanks,
Osho


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