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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801103
01/12/19 03:59 AM
01/12/19 03:59 AM
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+ 1.

I'm in the market for the VPC-2 when it appears (it has to appear at some point, right?). Have been very happy with my CS10 so I had some customer loyalty built up. Going to buy an acoustic at some point, and thought of complementing it with the VPC. But seeing how Kawai has fumbled the NV-10 situation has made me more skeptical.

Last edited by oivavoi; 01/12/19 04:04 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801132
01/12/19 06:54 AM
01/12/19 06:54 AM
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Just to confirm: Also for me the hissing is a phenomenon of the internal speakers (and much more mildly so also via headphones). I just bought a line out cable to connect to my stereo system, and there's no such noise via external speakers. (I don't have the setup with a VST and thus cannot recreate what opus64 describes.)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: opus64] #2801161
01/12/19 08:36 AM
01/12/19 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by opus64
Originally Posted by toddy

It can't be that because there is a firmware fix that reportedly limits high frequencies. That couldn't overcome a problem in the amplifiers or speakers - so the problem (or at least one of the problems) must be in the sound generator or elsewhere in the digital domain.


That's not quite a given. The 'amplifier' stage is not just a dumb analog stage, there is a lot of digital signal processing.

Since these stages are digital, they could be updated with a firmware update -IF- they reside on programmable hardware or the relevant parameters are programmable, I do not know if this is the case but it is possible.....I am convinced that it is a problem in the digital signal processing/digital amp section that goes to the on-board speakers.


I think we are in agreement here - we are both suggesting that the problem is digital and not generated, for example by capacitors in the amplifier.

However, this assumption appears to be contradicted by this from cliowa

Just to confirm: Also for me the hissing is a phenomenon of the internal speakers (and much more mildly so also via headphones). I just bought a line out cable to connect to my stereo system, and there's no such noise via external speakers. (I don't have the setup with a VST and thus cannot recreate what opus64 describes.)


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: toddy] #2801195
01/12/19 10:22 AM
01/12/19 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
I think we are in agreement here - we are both suggesting that the problem is digital and not generated, for example by capacitors in the amplifier...

But has Kawai ever acknowledged that the NV and CA models have any kind of problem whatsoever? Was the GUI reset when plugging headphones ever acknowledged? Were the numerous bugs with the favourites management ever acknowledged? Was the speaker hissing in the NV ever acknowledged? Was the lack of iOS/Android app support ever acknowledged?

Maybe Kawai is quietly trying to sort out these problems and will provide support to its CA/NV customers very soon. Or maybe they are readying the next generation of CA/NV models based on the input that their beta-testers customers provided.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801205
01/12/19 10:48 AM
01/12/19 10:48 AM
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From what I have been told here close to the US Kawai distribution/headquarters, they are handling each customer complaint (and there are not a lot of them) on an individual basis. One at a time. They provide Kawai in Japan information regarding each occurrence. Actually, the same as acoustic piano service calls. The technician manager for So. California (acoustic and DP’s) said that they get very few calls for the NV10. The majority being for acoustics as there are a lot of them in use, of course.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801236
01/12/19 12:37 PM
01/12/19 12:37 PM
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Tom, that's what my experience has been like as well--issues reported to, and updates/responses from Japan. I think it's easy to get caught in the pianoworld "bubble" (which probably represents the 0.5% most engaged purchasers across all brands/models) and overestimate the percentage of real world owners experiencing or agreeing with what we collectively discuss here.

In any case, I do hope that all affected owners get a fully satisfactory resolution to whatever issues they're experiencing. IMO the NV10 is such a great instrument to play that it's such a shame some owners are having problems that detract from the joy they should be feeling.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2801251
01/12/19 01:13 PM
01/12/19 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
But has Kawai ever acknowledged that the NV and CA models have any kind of problem whatsoever?


Tacitly, yes, by putting out a digital HF filter fix. Why would they do that unless there were a problem such as distortion and /or noise in that frequency range?

Even so, perhaps there is no problem after all and this is just a case of mass hysteria. Improbable.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2801256
01/12/19 01:17 PM
01/12/19 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
IMO the NV10 is such a great instrument to play that it's such a shame some owners are having problems that detract from the joy they should be feeling.


+1

I wouldn't had sold mine if there were some small problems which are easy to fix, but there was too much wrong on it. I'm extremely picky i know. On the other hand, i think it's justified be picky at that price level.


Yamaha NU1X
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801273
01/12/19 02:01 PM
01/12/19 02:01 PM
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Handling customer complaints and requests on an individual basis obviously works great for Kawai (and other big DP brands as well). Most customers will contact the dealer where they bought the keyboard. The dealer will then do his best to classify the complaint as something "normal" or "expected" and it may only take action in case of some major malfunction. So I am not sure if Kawai is even aware of how customers complaints are being handled at dealer level. Some customers may actually try to contact Kawai directly but I believe those will be a minority.

Therefore, having UI issues or hissing speakers may be considered "normal" behaviour for the majority of customers. So, it becomes "normal" not to release frequent system updates because most customers don't even know that the DP can be updated in first place. As you have said, the "bubble" we have here at this forum is not representative.

Let me just tell you what happened to an acquaintance who bought a CA78 a while ago. Recently he told me that his DP was "perfectly fine" but then he added that the screen "went blank for some seconds" after plugging headphones. I asked him if he had already contacted Kawai for a repair or replacement, because that defect has been observed in some CA/NV units. He said that the dealer told him this was "the normal behaviour when connecting headphones", so he never bothered again because he could hear sound as soon as he plugged the headphones. So, why should Kawai be releasing frequent updates or sending technicians to repair such units? It is much easier and cheaper to pretend everything is fine and keep a minority customers individually appeased until the next generation of DPs is brought to the market...

In my case, I own a CA98 and considered upgrading to the NV10. Given the issues with the CAx8 and NV10 and lack of acknowledgment of those issues from Kawai, the NV10 is not an option anymore. But, again, I am in the minority group, so it does not matter.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2801287
01/12/19 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
So, why should Kawai be releasing frequent updates or sending technicians to repair such units? It is much easier and cheaper to pretend everything is fine and keep a minority customers individually appeased until the next generation of DPs is brought to the market...


My only comment here is that Kawai arguably DOES have frequent updates and is trying to address issues for all uses, not just individually. There have been 3-4 firmware updates in the ~1 year since the nv10 had been released, those updates contain fixes/workarounds to various issues reported by users, and they're available to everyone to download. I'm not trying to argue that these updates have fixed everything that people have complained about, but the way they release firmware is similar to how other major manufacturers do--they release them online and leave to users the job of discovering updates are available (too bad none of the maker's notify registered users proactively).
In fact, Kawai is the only maker I know if that has a rep regularly notifying the public (on pianoworld) when updates are actually issued (Kawai James often makes a new post when an update is released).

It's not like they only send custom firmware updates to those who complain (though they DO send beta updates to individuals to help test fixes and address issues more quickly for those who are affected, a practice I think is laudable).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801291
01/12/19 02:44 PM
01/12/19 02:44 PM
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In a world where all piano manufacturers are evil, Kawai are probably the least evil smile But yet, it’s so disappointing there’s still no fix. I believe either it can’t be fixed through software and so would require a board swap which would be too difficult and expensive in the field, or they just decided to become a bit more evil than they used to be. I don’t like that to be honest. It’s one of many reasons for me to not buy a fourth Kawai piano in a row.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2801294
01/12/19 02:52 PM
01/12/19 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I believe either it can’t be fixed through software and so would require a board swap which would be too difficult and expensive in the field

It' can't be a board swap issue. Otherwise you would think it would be fixed in a later product revision for new buyers, and I haven't read anything to suggest new buyers never become afflicted. Many OEMs rev their products all the time, even while leaving the main model number the same. I've gotten for example Cisco switches with the same model number but major revisions in their main circuit boards. So that would not be the only reason for not addressing an issue of hardware. Honestly, I think they haven't fixed it because like many large companies, it takes time to investigate and then to approve a fix. Consider how long it took before VW came out with their fix for diesels? And that was with even Governments screaming about it. Kawai's pressures from customers can in no way even compare smile


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2801312
01/12/19 03:43 PM
01/12/19 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
In a world where all piano manufacturers are evil, Kawai are probably the least evil smile But yet, it’s so disappointing there’s still no fix. I believe either it can’t be fixed through software and so would require a board swap which would be too difficult and expensive in the field, or they just decided to become a bit more evil than they used to be. I don’t like that to be honest. It’s one of many reasons for me to not buy a fourth Kawai piano in a row.


My observation is Kawai tech’s will certainly replace a main board, or a UI board, if that will solve the problem the customer is experiencing. As I said earlier, each customer’s problem to be solved is different. To be handled case by case. An overall fix is not likely, if it even is possible. The person Arc7urus mentions could easily call Kawai if his dealer is unresponsive. The dealer’s full responsibility is to make a phone call to Kawai. Why in the world wouldn’t he do that? If the whole piano is replaced (which you all know is my case), the dealer is not responsible. If you had bought a grand for less than $10,000 (a cheap piano) you would likely need several visits from a technician in the first year. In my opinion, as I said before, if I was Kawai I wouldn’t have tried so hard to please everyone in the acoustic and digital piano universe. It made the instrument too complicated. But I have found the warranty service excellent!

However, like Gombessa I have empathy for those who don’t seem to getting the same responsiveness from Kawai that I have. In your shoes, I would demand that response from the dealer and from Kawai technical service rather than wait for a software update.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801496
01/13/19 08:56 AM
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I don't have much prior experience with Kawai, so I cannot speak to their overall support level or make any comparisons to other brands. What I can say is that my experience with the support for the Novus has not been one to recommend. And this is not a matter of not demanding things or being too lazy to really follow through with questions and complaints. I have been in touch with everyone from local dealer to distributor and finally Kawai (in Germany) itself, and indeed it has broken my trust in a brand that I had previously thought to have a reputation for good quality and high product standards in general.

From the reactions I have gotten it seems clear that Kawai is aware of a serious problem, but is not willing to acknowledge that. (For example, I am being told that a return and exchange would not make sense, since likely the new instrument would suffer from the same issues as the old one. So what is one to think of the fact that they keep being advertised and sold happily?) Kawai's strategy of dealing with the issue (whatever that is supposed to mean here, given the lack of progress) "on an individual basis" seems to me more reminiscent of an effort to try to quiet noise about the problem rather than an effort at error resolution. Of course this might be a common marketing strategy for any sort of mass market product, but I guess I had fooled myself into believing that with a "high-end" instrument like the Novus one would be treated to an honest customer service, rather than a wave of dismissals until maybe at some point a solution is found.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: cliowa] #2801503
01/13/19 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cliowa
I don't have much prior experience with Kawai, so I cannot speak to their overall support level or make any comparisons to other brands. What I can say is that my experience with the support for the Novus has not been one to recommend. And this is not a matter of not demanding things or being too lazy to really follow through with questions and complaints. I have been in touch with everyone from local dealer to distributor and finally Kawai (in Germany) itself, and indeed it has broken my trust in a brand that I had previously thought to have a reputation for good quality and high product standards in general.

From the reactions I have gotten it seems clear that Kawai is aware of a serious problem, but is not willing to acknowledge that. (For example, I am being told that a return and exchange would not make sense, since likely the new instrument would suffer from the same issues as the old one. So what is one to think of the fact that they keep being advertised and sold happily?) Kawai's strategy of dealing with the issue (whatever that is supposed to mean here, given the lack of progress) "on an individual basis" seems to me more reminiscent of an effort to try to quiet noise about the problem rather than an effort at error resolution. Of course this might be a common marketing strategy for any sort of mass market product, but I guess I had fooled myself into believing that with a "high-end" instrument like the Novus one would be treated to an honest customer service, rather than a wave of dismissals until maybe at some point a solution is found.

In their defense, if this is such a huge issue as you say it is (which I am not arguing against), then it will take time to come up with a proper solution. Perhaps the firmware update was an attempt to mitigate the problem until a better solution is arrived at.

I recommend continuing to offer feedback to Kawai, as this will help them to ensure they arrive at a good solution.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: cliowa] #2801509
01/13/19 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cliowa
I don't have much prior experience with Kawai, so I cannot speak to their overall support level or make any comparisons to other brands. What I can say is that my experience with the support for the Novus has not been one to recommend. And this is not a matter of not demanding things or being too lazy to really follow through with questions and complaints. I have been in touch with everyone from local dealer to distributor and finally Kawai (in Germany) itself, and indeed it has broken my trust in a brand that I had previously thought to have a reputation for good quality and high product standards in general.

From the reactions I have gotten it seems clear that Kawai is aware of a serious problem, but is not willing to acknowledge that. (For example, I am being told that a return and exchange would not make sense, since likely the new instrument would suffer from the same issues as the old one. So what is one to think of the fact that they keep being advertised and sold happily?) Kawai's strategy of dealing with the issue (whatever that is supposed to mean here, given the lack of progress) "on an individual basis" seems to me more reminiscent of an effort to try to quiet noise about the problem rather than an effort at error resolution. Of course this might be a common marketing strategy for any sort of mass market product, but I guess I had fooled myself into believing that with a "high-end" instrument like the Novus one would be treated to an honest customer service, rather than a wave of dismissals until maybe at some point a solution is found.

Exactly my experience. They could and should have found one of the working units and send it to me. Instead, their "service" went through three stages:
  • 2 weeks of blaming the customer
  • three months of pointless repair attempts followed by
  • four months of ignoring me.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801954
01/14/19 02:22 PM
01/14/19 02:22 PM
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I tried to connect the NV10 using bluetooth MIDI to a PC running Windows 10 - using loopMIDI and Midiberry.
NV10 appears in Device Manager under Bluetooth but does not appear in Midiberry at all, so I cannot choose it as an input device and route it to loopMIDI.

Is it possible to use the NV10 bluetooth midi in Windows?
Any suggestions?

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801971
01/14/19 03:01 PM
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No suggestions, just the observation that I too was unsuccessful when I tried connecting to my new Surface Pro tablet with Windows 10. I was able to pair the piano, but it would then immediately disconnect and be listed only as paired, not as connected. And obviously it then also never showed up in any app.

Bluetooth MIDI support is relatively recent in Windows 10 and it seems that there are still problems with it. Also, at http://kawai-global.com/support/bluetooth Kawai lists only iOS and OS X / macOS as officially supported for Bluetooth MIDI. So I gave up and use a USB cable instead that I routed around the back of the piano to the tablet that is on the music stand anyway.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801972
01/14/19 03:09 PM
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FWIW, can confirm Bluetooth MIDI works with iOS and macOS with my CA98.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801978
01/14/19 03:19 PM
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Same here, BT MIDI worked fine for me on macOS. I haven't had the opportunity to test on Win10 yet.

FWIW, I didn't find BT MIDI acceptable for general playing. Compared to USB MIDI, there's 10-20ms additional latency over the air, which is readily perceivable if you've spent a moderate amount of time trying to minimize it. I think that's nearly double total finger-to-ear latency, and it's just not worth the convenience of eliminating a cable.


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