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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2800581
01/10/19 02:59 PM
01/10/19 02:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 983
Milano
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newer player Online content
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Milano
Originally Posted by Gombessa
It helps, but oddly enough doesn't solve the problem 100% (I can still hear some electrical noise/warbling come out of the speakers when I adjust volume or use the trackpad on the laptop).


That might be something different than a ground loop. I have the same on my laptops. You might hear ticking noise scrolling up/down on a web page (sounds with both the mouse & the up/down arrows). You might hear that doing nothing if you put your head close to the laptop case.

Is that the sound? Can you hear it from the Kawai speakers also?

If so, the sound might be related to DC-DC power regulation in your laptop and sometimes called "coil whine". Might be the Intel power savings schemes.

Some things to try that might work:
- disable turbo boost (ThrottleStop software or Intel XTU or BIOS)
- lock CPU at base clock (so your CPU seems to run steady at say 2.0GHz)
- disable c-states
- disable SpeedStep
- disable SpeedShift

If you run OSX, there is a program to disable turbo boost; I don't know how to do the rest on OSX

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800619
01/10/19 04:38 PM
01/10/19 04:38 PM
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Thanks newer. I might be using the term ground loop incorrectly. The noise is indeed a constant buzzing/ticking and it reacts to activity (scrolling, keyboard presses) on the laptop (MBP). I hear it exclusively through the Kawai speakers, and only when both the USB cable (for MIDI) and line in audio cable are both connected between the DP and the laptop. If I pull out the USB cable, the buzzing stops, even with the audio cable still connected to the DP.

The iDefender eliminates about 80% of the noise but it still isn't dead silent (as it is without the USB connected). BT midi solves it (but introduces wireless latency).

Would be nice if the NV10 supported a USB audio interface like the latest Yamaha DPs, since it would eliminate the need for the audio cable (and presumably a conduit for the noise).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800662
01/10/19 06:22 PM
01/10/19 06:22 PM
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Pete14 Offline
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Kawai should be able to add USB audio capability through a firmware update, right?
I mean, that’s what Yamaha did with the CLP-6XX series and the NU1X.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Pete14] #2800666
01/10/19 06:35 PM
01/10/19 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Kawai should be able to add USB audio capability through a firmware update, right?
I mean, that’s what Yamaha did with the CLP-6XX series and the NU1X.


Others have disagreed with me on this, but I don't think it's quite so simple.

I think Yamaha built in the hardware capability for USB audio into the CLP6xx and NUX1 from the very start, but didn't activate or advertise it because it wasn't ready on the firmware side when the DPs were first released. When they finally finished it, they could activate the feature easily with a software update.

This doesn't mean however that every DP with a USB interface can automatically provide USB audio with just a software update, though.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2800685
01/10/19 07:39 PM
01/10/19 07:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Thanks newer. I might be using the term ground loop incorrectly. The noise is indeed a constant buzzing/ticking and it reacts to activity (scrolling, keyboard presses) on the laptop (MBP). I hear it exclusively through the Kawai speakers, and only when both the USB cable (for MIDI) and line in audio cable are both connected between the DP and the laptop. If I pull out the USB cable, the buzzing stops, even with the audio cable still connected to the DP.

The iDefender eliminates about 80% of the noise but it still isn't dead silent (as it is without the USB connected). BT midi solves it (but introduces wireless latency).

Audioquest Jitterbug?


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800885
01/11/19 02:00 PM
01/11/19 02:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 17
UK
Phoerocks Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


Yeah just buy 10 of these and chain those bad boys. Problem solved wink

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Phoerocks] #2800888
01/11/19 02:03 PM
01/11/19 02:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


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Originally Posted by Phoerocks
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


Yeah just buy 10 of these and chain those bad boys. Problem solved wink

Only ten? Oh sorry, that must be the economy solution... smirk


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800891
01/11/19 02:14 PM
01/11/19 02:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 17
UK
Phoerocks Offline
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UK
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Phoerocks
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop


Yeah just buy 10 of these and chain those bad boys. Problem solved wink

Only ten? Oh sorry, that must be the economy solution... smirk


Well I suppose one could take the "Amazon Subscribe" route, and get an extra one mailed automatically every month.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800893
01/11/19 02:20 PM
01/11/19 02:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,531
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Audioquest sell USB cables for ridiculous amounts such as a €1000 claiming it would improve the sound. That’s an apparent lie smile For that reason alone I wouldn’t trust any of their products.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2800896
01/11/19 02:25 PM
01/11/19 02:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Audioquest sell USB cables for ridiculous amounts such as a €1000 claiming it would improve the sound. That’s an apparent lie smile For that reason alone I wouldn’t trust any of their products.

Have you tried the Audioquest Dragonfly Red? I have one. It is definitely one of the best DAC/amplifier for smartphones.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800898
01/11/19 02:32 PM
01/11/19 02:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,531
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Yep, tried the black, the red and I own an Apogee Groove. Neither of them sound different than just plugging my headphones into my MacBook Pro audio output. I use the Groove now to drive my HD650-s with Garritan CFX since it offers a bit higher amplification than the Mac Mini output.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800915
01/11/19 03:17 PM
01/11/19 03:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 27
Indianapolis, IN
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
With so much written about the hissing issue, how many of you NV10 owners have escaped the NV10 audio artifacts entirely by exclusively (or almost exclusively) using VSTs for your day-to-day playing/practicing? And if that is you, what VST/virtual instrument do you use that you feel is a good fit for the NV10?


I for one have stopped using the NV10 on-board sounds and speakers entirely because of this issue. On my system the hissing applies to anything that goes to the on-board speakers, even a VST. I attached an external set of studio monitors which does not seem to exhibit the issue.

This all seems quite ridiculous considering how much this piano cost, and how long Kawai has had to fix the problem or at least respond to their customers officially.

I used Garritan CFX for a long time, but now I have found the Vienna VSL CFX, Bosendorfer Imperial and Steinway-D. These are truly remarkable sample sets, and I haven't heard anything quite like them before, particularly the Syncron pianos. After using these VSTs my perception has changed to the point that the on-board sounds and Pianoteq no longer sound like real pianos to me. The Garritan CFX and Vienna pianos, I can play them forever and they always sound believable to my ears. Not that the on-board piano sounds are bad, compared to the (hardware) competition.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: opus64] #2800922
01/11/19 03:25 PM
01/11/19 03:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,782
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by opus64
I for one have stopped using the NV10 on-board sounds and speakers entirely because of this issue. On my system the hissing applies to anything that goes to the on-board speakers, even a VST.

Wait! The hissing happens with a VST and the on-board speakers? Does that say the problem is with the speakers themselves and/or the NV10's internal amplifier, and not the sound generator at all?


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800968
01/11/19 05:14 PM
01/11/19 05:14 PM
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Portugal
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toddy Offline
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Portugal
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The hissing happens with a VST and the on-board speakers? Does that say the problem is with the speakers themselves and/or the NV10's internal amplifier, and not the sound generator at all?


It can't be that because there is a firmware fix that reportedly limits high frequencies. That couldn't overcome a problem in the amplifiers or speakers - so the problem (or at least one of the problems) must be in the sound generator or elsewhere in the digital domain.

Last edited by toddy; 01/11/19 05:18 PM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800972
01/11/19 05:32 PM
01/11/19 05:32 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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This is also the first I've heard of an issue affecting more than just the built in piano tones. I don't doubt opus64, but it sounds like it may be a different issue than the one extensively discussed here?

And btw, I also agree that I never get tired of the Garritan CFX sound. If I close my eyes, it's so extremely immersive in a way that hardware piano tones can't match, it really sounds like you're in the presence of an acoustic grand.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: toddy] #2801029
01/11/19 07:55 PM
01/11/19 07:55 PM
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Posts: 27
Indianapolis, IN
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Originally Posted by toddy

It can't be that because there is a firmware fix that reportedly limits high frequencies. That couldn't overcome a problem in the amplifiers or speakers - so the problem (or at least one of the problems) must be in the sound generator or elsewhere in the digital domain.


That's not quite a given. The 'amplifier' stage is not just a dumb analog stage, there is a lot of digital signal processing.

Since these stages are digital, they could be updated with a firmware update -IF- they reside on programmable hardware or the relevant parameters are programmable, I do not know if this is the case but it is possible.

The problem I experience has been experienced by others and was even captured on video by one user on this thread which I can't recall now.

I have been looking at this for a long time and I am convinced that it is a problem in the digital signal processing/digital amp section that goes to the on-board speakers. The problem is that the 'hiss' effect is triggered by content in the sampled audio in certain frequency bands. The Garritan samples are particularly affected by this and it is unplayably hissy with Garritan on the on-board speakers on my unit. If I instead load the Vienna VSL VSTs their sampling process/mics did not yield as much of the certain frequencies that trigger the 'hiss' and it is more tolerable, but external speakers do not have the problem so I use those.

I believe the 'hiss' is the side effect of digital signal processing operation(s) designed to make the sampled instrument sound more realistic like Onkyo themselves describe it:
"The NV10’s audio output signal chain is optimised for fidelity and power, with 1-bit sample processing that enhances the depth and airiness of the Shigeru Kawai tone"

I think this effort to enhance the 'airiness' went astray, maybe because of a bug in the processing but also it could be a variable unit-to-unit problem with the speakers or analog circuits that causes it to be objectionable on only some systems.

Filtering the sampled sounds is a patch to prevent the content in the samples that excites the downstream processing from adding the 'hiss'.

Apart from this 'hiss' issue, there is a separate problem in that there is a 'buzz' sound that is captured on some samples on the internal engine that sounds like some resonance in the casing of the sampled piano, some have compared it to placing aluminum foil on the strings. This is not the issue i'm mainly concerned about in my case, but it is certainly there, and I believe this one is a sound engine problem.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801030
01/11/19 07:56 PM
01/11/19 07:56 PM
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I only have the CFXLite which sounds a bit dull, regardless of the preset. While it sounds really good on the NU1X speakers via USB to audio, something is missing that i can't describe. Maybe it's the light version or whatever. The build in sounds are good enough that i don't use CFXLite at all.

On topic: This is also the first time for me seeing a report about hissing noise when using a VST through the Novus speakers. Is the hissing present on all speakers or only on the right side?


Yamaha NU1X
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2801037
01/11/19 08:52 PM
01/11/19 08:52 PM
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It is on all top speakers, not just one side.

To those fellow Garritan lovers I recommend you also try the Vienna VSL CFX. It is an amazing sampled piano, and it is even more remarkable how different it sounds from Garritan despite being the same piano. Some days I feel like Garritan other like VSL.

The one downside of Vienna VSL is the lack of a velocity curve editor, I really hope they add this feature.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: opus64] #2801080
01/12/19 12:25 AM
01/12/19 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by opus64
It is on all top speakers, not just one side.

To those fellow Garritan lovers I recommend you also try the Vienna VSL CFX. It is an amazing sampled piano, and it is even more remarkable how different it sounds from Garritan despite being the same piano. Some days I feel like Garritan other like VSL.

The one downside of Vienna VSL is the lack of a velocity curve editor, I really hope they add this feature.


Omg, the will never add that feature because velocity is "Global Dynamic Range" and "Global Midi Sensitivity" under "Edit" tab.


Kawai Novus NV10
www.youtube.com/vangakuz
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2801089
01/12/19 02:00 AM
01/12/19 02:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,593
Melbourne, Australia
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It's pretty sad that you have a premium instrument which looks fantastic on paper, with its real action, touchscreen interface, high-quality sampling, subwoofer and high fidelity speakers and Onkyo amplifier, but the thread is now mainly about how to run it with a PC and external speakers.

There is radio silence on a resolution from Kawai, it's like people have just given up. I really feel for James at this time because he represents the brand and he can't criticise it, but it must be tearing him up to read so many complaints about the NV10 - especially since he was an enthusiastic presenter of the new model when it was introduced. Something has gone badly wrong in this process - both from a technical standpoint and from a public relations standpoint. It's certainly had a big impact on how I view the company - and I am one of those people who will be in the market for such a piano in the coming years. I hope Kawai can pull it together and rebuild some credibility around this and the coming hybrid models. I suspect the collaboration with Onkyo is on its last legs...

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