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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800272
01/09/19 07:53 PM
01/09/19 07:53 PM
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Why not try a bit of high-end EQ by putting a shirt or two on top of the top speaker grills?

Last edited by newer player; 01/09/19 07:53 PM.
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800274
01/09/19 07:57 PM
01/09/19 07:57 PM
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UK
Phoerocks Online content
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Using Garritan CFX Full (Player perspective, sometimes Classic) which I think works great. Much prefer it to any in-built sound.

On another note, I'm a bit wound up trying to do this firmware patch. Step one was easy (Preparing USB then holding power down for 10 secs), but step two and three require the following:

"Press and hold all three pedals (damper, sostenuto, soft) simultaneously, then press the POWER button to turn on the instrument."

For the life of me, having tried this 50 times with different timings etc. this won't work! Either boots normally, or to "Factory Check Mode" which is the wrong area.

KAWAI James, any advise on this? Have followed manual carefully, have tried FAT and FAT32.

Am now stuck in Limbo with 1/3 firmware files applied to the unit !!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Phoerocks] #2800284
01/09/19 08:18 PM
01/09/19 08:18 PM
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Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello Phonerocks,

Originally Posted by Phoerocks
KAWAI James, any advise on this? Have followed manual carefully, have tried FAT and FAT32.

Am now stuck in Limbo with 1/3 firmware files applied to the unit !!


Don't worry, the 2nd and 3rd stages of the software update are just to update the touchscreen UI. If the main UI already shows "v1.0.2" at the bottom of the Settings menu, you're already running the latest version, and there is no need to continue with these two stages. The instrument's main system software will have been updated in the 1st stage.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800289
01/09/19 08:35 PM
01/09/19 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
With so much written about the hissing issue, how many of you NV10 owners have escaped the NV10 audio artifacts entirely by exclusively (or almost exclusively) using VSTs for your day-to-day playing/practicing? And if that is you, what VST/virtual instrument do you use that you feel is a good fit for the NV10?


Well, I have, but not because of any hissing issue. I pretty much use Garritan CFX exclusively with my NV10, through headphones for daily practice. When my daughter practices, or on the rare occasion nobody else is home, I play the built-in NV-10 tone (Pianist Mode, default classical setting) and it's generally fine.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2800291
01/09/19 08:43 PM
01/09/19 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
...or on the rare occasion nobody else is home, I play the built-in NV-10 tone (Pianist Mode, default classical setting) and it's generally fine.

Thanks! Perhaps I am asking the wrong question, but is there a reason you don't like to use Garritan CFX through the NV10's built-in speakers? Or does it sound worse through the speakers than the headphones, or does CFX through the NV10's speakers sounds worst than the native Pianist Mode?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800292
01/09/19 08:43 PM
01/09/19 08:43 PM
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For folks not experiencing hissing issues, does the latest version of the firmware cause a degradation in sound compared to the original firmware?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gérard] #2800369
01/10/19 04:40 AM
01/10/19 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mbernardofdz
Hello:
I´m afraid that the firmware nv10_v102f_EU, which I have also installed, is a simple equalization patch, as has already been said in the forum. The hissing through the speakers has been reduced, but at the expense of modifying substantially the timbre of the instrument.


I had the same experience with another "custom" firmware patch that I received from Kawai Germany. Not a very inspiring situation.

Originally Posted by Gérard
The hissing speaker problem has not been solved by Kawai yet. I made the decision to be reimbursed for the novus. He left this morning ...

Good luck to you who has the hissing problem.

A musical instrument is first a good sound ... even more when you invest a lot of money.

I'm going to buy an MP11SE or a CA78 while waiting .... I love Kawai but today I can say that I had only problems with the novus, very bad experience alas.


I can understand, Gérard, and I'm thinking of doing the same. It's really just a shame.

So the only question that remains is whether there is any hope that by random luck things would be better in a replacement piano. So who of you have a Novus who's original sound via speakers (without further dulling updates or VSTs) does NOT suffer from the hissing problem? I'd like to understand whether this issue is something that at this point is pretty much guaranteed to happen with all new pianos or not...

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: navindra] #2800370
01/10/19 04:44 AM
01/10/19 04:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,043
Germany
JoBert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by navindra
For folks not experiencing hissing issues, does the latest version of the firmware cause a degradation in sound compared to the original firmware?

Since I don't have any hissing issues (and play exclusively the internal sounds, mainly via speakers), I guess I'll give it a go:

Please keep in mind, that I'm far from being an audiophile or other kind of expert listener. Someone with more discerning (or younger) ears may get different results.

TL;DR - If there is a difference, it is very subtle.

OK, now for the long and slightly convoluted story:

I didn't upgrade to 1.02f at first, but to 1.02e, which wasn't made public but which I got directly from Kawai support, back in October 2018, because that version was supposed to include a fix for a bug that I had reported (the problem with storing a "Romantic" favorite that I posted about earlier in this thread) and they wanted me to verify that the problem was indeed fixed before releasing it. And yes, it was fixed, so I guess they then included some other further changes, increased the version number to 1.02f and then released that version a bit later.

Anyway, when I got this new firmware, I too was curious if it would include any changes to the base EQ of the piano, so I tried to hear if there were any differences after I applied it. I went so far as to play a short while with the old firmware still active, to get the "old" sound into memory, then I upgraded, and then I played the same pieces again. I think I even reverted to the old firmware (I think it was 1.02c, but I'm not sure right now) to repeat the test.

The results were very inconclusive. The difference, if any, was indeed very subtle, and the big problem with my test was, that I couldn't really do a proper A/B comparison where I could listen to the old sound, then turn around and listen to the new sound. Instead, I had to listen to the old sound, then go through a 1-2 minute upgrade procedure, and only then listen to the new sound. After such a long pause (with distracting activities in between) the memory of the old sound had already faded so much, that it was very hard for me to determine if I was really hearing a difference, or if I was only imagining it.
I think that is a good thing, actually, because if the differences had been large enough to still be obvious after the lengthy turnaround of the firmware upgrade, then that would have meant that the sound had really been altered considerably. Which however wasn't the case.

Still, in the end, I'm convinced that there was a slight difference, but as said, it was very subtle and my conviction comes less from that I actually noticed the difference consciously as a different sound, but more from other factors:

First of all, I simply asked Kawai support about if the new firmware also contained EQ changes when I reported back that it did fix my favorites problem (I know - asking the manufacturer is probably a strange concept smile), and the answer was affirmative. So even if I didn't hear much of a difference, I know that the EQ is slightly different than before.

The second clue is in my own manual EQ settings (this part is a bit convoluted): With the old firmware, I had used the manual EQ (via the "Tone Control" setting) to reduce the highs a bit (IIRC I had mid-high at -1 and high at -3). I did that because I found some of the very highest frequencies a bit annoying when playing via speakers. However, in my headphones (HD599), which are a bit "warmer", I did not have this problem, and reducing the highs in that fashion did not sound good in the headphones, so I had different favorites for playing with speakers (with the highs reduced as described) and for playing with headphones (with standard EQ settings).
After the upgrade to 1.02e, I was able to undo my manual EQing again, i.e. I now have Tone Control off again and just use the default EQ both for speakers and headphones. At the default EQ setting, I think the piano is now a bit brighter than it was previously at -1/-3, but the annoying frequencies for which I initially did the -1/-3 EQ are no longer there. (Mind, I'm not speaking about a "hiss" here, just normal high frequencies that were annoying in my environment.)
So, compared to the old firmware without EQ, the new firmware without EQ was a bit more "damped" in those very high frequencies that annoyed me. However, it is much less "damped" than the old firmware was at the manual -1/-3 setting, because while I found the old firmware with -1/-3 a bit too "dull" with my HD599, I don't think the same about the new firmware at default EQ. Which means that now I no longer need different favorites for playing with speakers and headphones, which is a good thing. smile
So based on the fact that after the upgrade I was able to undo the manual -1/-3 setting, I also know that the base EQ in the firmware must have changed. But less than my previoys -1/-3 manual change.

And for completeness sake I should mention that I've recently upgraded to 1.02f too, but didn't hear any more changes after that upgrade.

As a summary: After the change, to me, even if the piano may have sounded very, very slightly different, it certainly didn't sound worse than before, or otherwise bad in any way. Or in other words: If it had had the newer base EQ from the beginning, when I tested it in the shop, I wouldn't even have realized that the EQ is different. Of course I couldn't have, if I had never heard the piano with the "other" EQ before (doh!), but you know what I mean: I wouldn't have sat there in the shop and said "Oh, I'm not sure, but the piano sounds kind of strange, I wonder if someone has fiddled with its EQ?". It sounds just like a normal (digital) piano. I would certainly have bought it without hesitation even if it had had the same base EQ from the beginning.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: cliowa] #2800374
01/10/19 05:07 AM
01/10/19 05:07 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by cliowa
I had the same experience with another "custom" firmware patch that I received from Kawai Germany. Not a very inspiring situation.


May I ask if you have tried updating to the official 1.0.2f version mentioned above?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800377
01/10/19 05:12 AM
01/10/19 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Thanks! Perhaps I am asking the wrong question, but is there a reason you don't like to use Garritan CFX through the NV10's built-in speakers? Or does it sound worse through the speakers than the headphones, or does CFX through the NV10's speakers sounds worst than the native Pianist Mode?


There are a few reasons (and admittedly some are a bit nitpicky, sorry for incoming wall of text):

1. Ground loop-like feedback with my laptop: I can't fix this 100% even when running the laptop on battery power or with an iDefender on the USB cable. I tried using Bluetooth midi but the added latency is unacceptable.

2. CFX noise is highlighted with the speakers: My 598s seem to be tailored for CFX. This particular VST has a slightly higher noise floor, which is actually damped with these headphones. Played through the speakers on the NV10, I can hear the sample noise readily and it's distracting (and I've confirmed through the headphones that it's originating with the samples and not the speakers).

3. Headphones + speakers always active: Kawai and I have a fundamental disagreement about how this should work smile. I want to leave my headphones plugged in and active all the time, and be able to turn the speakers on and off through a tap of the touchscreen (via local control stored in a Favorite). I can't do that through the NV10 since plugging in the headphones automatically disables all speaker output. Running the VST through headphones on the laptop addresses the issue, since nothing is plugged into the NV10 headphone port. So now anyone who wants to play the piano just taps the favorite labeled "speaker" or "headphones" without fiddling under the piano trying to find and plug/unplug a cable and then mess with any volume difference between the two settings.

4. I really like the advanced resonances of SK-EX Rendering, and appreciate being able to hear them once in a while, so heading them when playing with speakers is nice.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2800389
01/10/19 06:11 AM
01/10/19 06:11 AM
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cliowa Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by cliowa
I had the same experience with another "custom" firmware patch that I received from Kawai Germany. Not a very inspiring situation.


May I ask if you have tried updating to the official 1.0.2f version mentioned above?

Kind regards,
James
x

Yes, I have. I had the same impression as with the custom one that the sound seems somewhat suppressed, i.e. doesn't sound natural anymore. (This was also the feedback I gave Kawai Germany about the other patch.)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: cliowa] #2800402
01/10/19 07:28 AM
01/10/19 07:28 AM
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cliowa Offline
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Should have added: The hissing has been lessened, but has not disappeared. Had it gone away completely I would have maybe stuck with the new version, but since everything just seems dampened I reverted to the older one.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2800479
01/10/19 11:55 AM
01/10/19 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,122
Austria
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Austria
Originally Posted by Gombessa
1. Ground loop-like feedback with my laptop: I can't fix this 100% even when running the laptop on battery power or with an iDefender on the USB cable. I tried using Bluetooth midi but the added latency is unacceptable.

Maybe something here can help

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-bus-powered-audio-devices-discuss.5899/

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800495
01/10/19 12:14 PM
01/10/19 12:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,210
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Re: my earlier VST question. I've just been thinking that if I spend $10K on a DP, then I figure 95-90% of that is for the keyboard action, 5% for the sound, and 5% for furniture. So if I have to then spend $500 (VST + even an inexpensive dedicated PC) more to get the sound I want through a VST, and rid myself of any audio artifacts (such as hissing), then that really is a phffffftttt, isn't it? Because I might get even more than a $500 discount on the piano just through negotiation, right?

Why does it seem such a big deal about an audio artifact which could be cured by an additional $500, that people would rather return/resell their pianos and get something with possibly worse keyboard action, instead? I'm guessing it's more than just a feeling of affront that the $10K item one purchased is imperfect.

Or am I not understanding something and thinking about this the wrong way? Please educate me someone as this piano is a real possibility for me.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800510
01/10/19 12:41 PM
01/10/19 12:41 PM
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Portugal
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toddy Offline
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Adding a vst might solve the problem but it raises others on the way to do with compatibility, complications with hard and soft computer ware, problems with registration, installation and regulation. And, for some people, clutter and confusion. Then there's usually the latency problem at some point

It takes quite a lot of time to get a vst system up and running - and seemingly forever to get it running perfectly, judging by other threads.

It's a bit much to have to start all that hocus pocus after have just spent ten thousand dollars on a digital piano.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800521
01/10/19 12:51 PM
01/10/19 12:51 PM
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Westminster, CA
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
With so much written about the hissing issue, how many of you NV10 owners have escaped the NV10 audio artifacts entirely by exclusively (or almost exclusively) using VSTs for your day-to-day playing/practicing? And if that is you, what VST/virtual instrument do you use that you feel is a good fit for the NV10?


There is no problem using VST. You can check my channel. I used Ivory II but mainly now VSL Yamaha CFX.
Also, there is an experiment that I have been researching: Recording by VST and internal USB, export its midi, pass the midi to the piano and speakers to playback at the same time. This produces 4 sampled files. Then, combine and layer 4 files into 1 by measuring the exact spectrum to avoid any chorus effect. My latest youtube cover is the result of this long process. I am still uncertain but one thing for sure, when I play turning on both the piano's speaker and computer speaker running VST, the sound and feel is much better.


Kawai Novus NV10
www.youtube.com/vangakuz
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2800527
01/10/19 01:15 PM
01/10/19 01:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,638
Hobart, Australia
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Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Re: my earlier VST question. I've just been thinking that if I spend $10K on a DP, then I figure 95-90% of that is for the keyboard action, 5% for the sound, and 5% for furniture. So if I have to then spend $500 (VST + even an inexpensive dedicated PC) more to get the sound I want through a VST, and rid myself of any audio artifacts (such as hissing), then that really is a phffffftttt, isn't it? Because I might get even more than a $500 discount on the piano just through negotiation, right?

Why does it seem such a big deal about an audio artifact which could be cured by an additional $500, that people would rather return/resell their pianos and get something with possibly worse keyboard action, instead? I'm guessing it's more than just a feeling of affront that the $10K item one purchased is imperfect.

Or am I not understanding something and thinking about this the wrong way? Please educate me someone as this piano is a real possibility for me.

The issue is that it's thoroughly ridiculous that you can spend this much on a piano and have it distorting on you. A lot of people don't have the desire, inclination or technical ability to get PCs and sampled pianos going - and why should they have to? Kawai managed to get the CA series sounding fine with no distortion - why can't they sort out the NV10? It's really quite absurd to be sending out firmware patches to mask the problem. They should be offering solutions, not patches, not refunds - just fix the darn things. This is damaging faith in the brand - and deservedly so.

It's a separate matter if you want to buy one and use a PC/VST - at least you know that going in. But spare a thought for all the unsuspecting purchasers of the NV10 who are bitterly disappointed that they invested financially and emotionally into an instrument that doesn't deliver what it promised. I think it's a very serious issue and I can't believe how long it's taking Kawai to address it properly.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800530
01/10/19 01:31 PM
01/10/19 01:31 PM
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Westminster, CA
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Very true. For us piano addict and those who invest in an $10k instrument means we put a serious passion and commitment. A small imperfect alone is enough to put one into desperation and feeling of being scammed. Obviously this thread doesn't include all owner and not all people express their experience online. I believe the situation is worse than we think it is.


Kawai Novus NV10
www.youtube.com/vangakuz
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: newer player] #2800568
01/10/19 03:24 PM
01/10/19 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player


That's essential what an iDefender is-it isolates the USB power lines from the data (and even lets you supply separate power).

It helps, but oddly enough doesn't solve the problem 100% (I can still hear some electrical noise/warbling come out of the speakers when I adjust volume or use the trackpad on the laptop).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2800578
01/10/19 03:50 PM
01/10/19 03:50 PM
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Thanks very much JoBert! That's quite reassuring!

I wonder if it's possible to "undo" the change in equalization without needing to reflash the firmware... perhaps playing with the settings can achieve it.

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