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How to set the pins when friction is so high?
#2710693 02/01/18 03:59 PM
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Hello!

When I tune some pianos, grands, like Yamaha G2 or similar, in the upper secction (capo bar) happen this:
I turn the pin clockwise until the tune ups, then I turn un-clockwise to "detune" and nothing happens,
Until i turned even more than from the begginig to start changing the tune.
It seems to be the not equalized tension in the sl, and nspl, but coud be so much?
I was giving hard blows to the key until i broke a hammer shank, (and my ears wink and the tuning doesn´t go down.
If it´s the friction, what should I do? I decide to de-tune like a semitone, and then tune up, and stop exactely when the sring is tuned.
Because if I want to go up and down, to set the pin, it´s impossible...
Any tips? suggestions? thanks!

Pablo


Pablo Woiz
Yamaha G2, Roland Fp-30 //before: Technics p-30, Casio Privia px-100, Yamaha MX-49, M.Audio Axiom-61, Yamaha CP-80, Roland f-20, Upright Zimmermann.
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710704 02/01/18 05:17 PM
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It is not unusual for the cloth under the strings near the tuning pins to be the source of the friction. On a sample string, try applying some Protec CLP to the cloth along the string. At least at first, avoid applying it to where the string bears against the plate, because you can end up with too little friction. The Protec CLP will not stain the cloth or attract dust, but it's a good idea to brush the cloth clean before applying it. I carry some Protec CLP in a small squeeze bottle, and that works well.

There are other possible sources of friction, but trying this on a sample string will not hurt anything, and it could prove to be a significant help.


Floyd G RPT
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710714 02/01/18 05:51 PM
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Pablo,

Do you have Protek where you are? Or a similar lubricant?

On very high friction pianos I have no problem applying it at the capo bar and upper string rest as well as the felt. Try one or two first to see if any improvement before doing everything.

Believe it or not, filing the hammers to good shape and fitting them to the strings can imorove this situation also.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710733 02/01/18 06:55 PM
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Mario Igrec in Pianos Inside Out recommends Protek Prolube rather than Protek CLP, for understring felt, V bar and capo bar applications (and presumably agraffes). Prolube comes in a spray bottle, but can be decanted into a hypo oiler, or applied with a little brush or piece of felt. Formerly I used Protek CLP for these applications, but now I use Protek Prolube.

I have certainly found that treating the understring felt, especially on old pianos where the strings have bitten in deeply over time and there is a wide expanse, makes a difference to ease of tuning and stability.

Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
David Boyce #2710775 02/01/18 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Mario Igrec in Pianos Inside Out recommends Protek Prolube rather than Protek CLP, for understring felt, V bar and capo bar applications (and presumably agraffes). Prolube comes in a spray bottle, but can be decanted into a hypo oiler, or applied with a little brush or piece of felt. Formerly I used Protek CLP for these applications, but now I use Protek Prolube

I use the Proteck CLP too. I wonder what the difference in the products is?


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710782 02/01/18 08:39 PM
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It can be tricky. You really have to try to focus on where the bottom of the pin is. Usually with grands that have high friction I pull it slightly above pitch really focusing on the bottom of the pin. Then I flex the pin towards the strings while playing the note fairly hard to get the pitch to drop. If that doesn't work I lower the pitch by flexing towards the strings and turning the pin counterclockwise slightly until the pitch gets to where I want it. When it does I turn the pin up clockwise while keeping downward pressure on it so that the pitch doesn't change. It's hard to explain. I also do this with pianos that have long nonspeaking lengths. Maybe I can get a video soon.


Lucas Brookins, RPT
Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Floyd G #2710857 02/02/18 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Floyd G
It is not unusual for the cloth under the strings near the tuning pins to be the source of the friction. On a sample string, try applying some Protec CLP to the cloth along the string. At least at first, avoid applying it to where the string bears against the plate, because you can end up with too little friction. The Protec CLP will not stain the cloth or attract dust, but it's a good idea to brush the cloth clean before applying it. I carry some Protec CLP in a small squeeze bottle, and that works well.

There are other possible sources of friction, but trying this on a sample string will not hurt anything, and it could prove to be a significant help.

Thanks a lot Floyd, I will try now and tell you.
But What would be the inconvenient of to have "too little friction" ?
wouldn´t be more responsive if teorical no friction??
Saludos

Pablo


Pablo Woiz
Yamaha G2, Roland Fp-30 //before: Technics p-30, Casio Privia px-100, Yamaha MX-49, M.Audio Axiom-61, Yamaha CP-80, Roland f-20, Upright Zimmermann.
www.pablowoiz.com
Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
That Guy #2710882 02/02/18 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by That Guy
Originally Posted by David Boyce
Mario Igrec in Pianos Inside Out recommends Protek Prolube rather than Protek CLP, for understring felt, V bar and capo bar applications (and presumably agraffes). Prolube comes in a spray bottle, but can be decanted into a hypo oiler, or applied with a little brush or piece of felt. Formerly I used Protek CLP for these applications, but now I use Protek Prolube

I use the Proteck CLP too. I wonder what the difference in the products is?

My understanding is that the company that produces it is a single person perhaps in their garage.

ian

Last edited by Beemer; 02/02/18 08:42 AM.

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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710904 02/02/18 10:48 AM
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Too little friction can make the tuning unstable. Ideally, the tension in the front non-speaking length should end up a little higher than the tension in the speaking length, so that with a strong blow, which for an instant raises the tension in the speaking length, nothing moves. The optimal amount of friction allows straight forward tuning, but at the same time allows the differential in segment tensions, and further insurance against unwanted string movement. I have over-lubricated, and suffered the consequences.


Floyd G RPT
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710944 02/02/18 01:10 PM
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Some pianos simply refuse to cooperate. Actually, that usually means they need restringing, which probably will not happen...so you need to adjust and do the best you can. Start with lubing the string contacts. I actually mix my Protek about 50/50 CLP/Prolube for a custom viscosity. Prolube is simply a thicker version of CLP. Effects last longer due to this. Sometimes I mix other ingredients into it too.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
P W Grey #2710977 02/02/18 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Prolube is simply a thicker version of CLP. Effects last longer due to this.

Thanks for the info Peter!

Last edited by That Guy; 02/02/18 02:34 PM.

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Scott Kerns
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2710991 02/02/18 03:18 PM
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Quote
My understanding is that the company that produces it is a single person perhaps in their garage.

ian


Maybe a single person decants the stuff into custom printed bottles in a garage, but I doubt if that person is actually the manufacturer of liquid fluoropolymer lubricants. I imagine that the proprietor of Protek did some work and experiment ation to find what works for pianos, and buys in bulk from a chemical corporation.

Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
David Boyce #2711181 02/03/18 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
My understanding is that the company that produces it is a single person perhaps in their garage.

ian


Maybe a single person decants the stuff into custom printed bottles in a garage, but I doubt if that person is actually the manufacturer of liquid fluoropolymer lubricants. I imagine that the proprietor of Protek did some work and experiment ation to find what works for pianos, and buys in bulk from a chemical corporation.

David,

I could not find the original link to where I discovered it one a one-man-band company. However this week I did research every Protek, Protek CLP and Clp trade mark (as marked on the product) and there is no registered Trade Mark involving Protek Industries Inc. Neither is there a European or USA patent or OSHA or MSDS safety sheet despite the product, according to some distributors, being flammable.

I'm not too bothered as long as i can still buy it smile

ian

Last edited by Beemer; 02/03/18 11:45 AM.

I'm all keyed up
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2711185 02/03/18 11:58 AM
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I'm not too bothered as long as i can still buy it


Well I'm the same, Ian! I too did a bit of looking into it some time ago, and you can't really find anything. But I'm pretty certain it must be some industrial lubricant product repackaged.

Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2711205 02/03/18 01:43 PM
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Are the tuning pins tight too??
Before tuning I like to do some evaluation. One good indicator is to apply pressure to the flat direction with the hammer and give a couple good test blows (know what the definition of a test blow is so you dont break hammer shanks) and see/listen to what happens. Identifying where the high string bearing friction exists can be done by lifiting the strings at the understring felt with a string hook.
If this tells you where the high friction is then lift all of the strings the same before tuning.
Protek is a good thing at these high friction points as well.
If this does not solve the problem then it must be the capo bar that needs reshaping.
If the pins are tight too then try tuning from the flat side and dont go sharp of desired pitch. then use some test blows, if it dont move, leave it alone.


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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2711222 02/03/18 03:24 PM
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Protek is a good thing at these high friction points as well.


Gene, do you have a preference between Protek CLP and Protek Prolube for this?

Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
David Boyce #2711259 02/03/18 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
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Protek is a good thing at these high friction points as well.


Gene, do you have a preference between Protek CLP and Protek Prolube for this?


CLP


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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2711296 02/03/18 09:16 PM
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CLP for me, too, applied with a 1/4 inch wide paint brush. I buy the big bottles and fill a 2 oz bottle for me tool case 1-2 times a week.




Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
P W Grey #2711534 02/04/18 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Pablo,

Do you have Protek where you are? Or a similar lubricant?

On very high friction pianos I have no problem applying it at the capo bar and upper string rest as well as the felt. Try one or two first to see if any improvement before doing everything.

Believe it or not, filing the hammers to good shape and fitting them to the strings can imorove this situation also.

Pwg



Thanks Grey, Yes, I live in Germany then I can get Protek.
I still never used it yet, I use some PFTE spray, that is 3 times cheaper, but I don´t know if it comparable to Protek.
http://www.ballistol.de/84-0-BALLISTOL-Teflon-Spray.html

I think, is time to buy Protek...

About filling the hammers make sense, because then the test blows would be more effective..

Thanks for your sugestions.

Pablo


Pablo Woiz
Yamaha G2, Roland Fp-30 //before: Technics p-30, Casio Privia px-100, Yamaha MX-49, M.Audio Axiom-61, Yamaha CP-80, Roland f-20, Upright Zimmermann.
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Re: How to set the pins when friction is so high?
Pablo Woiz #2711635 02/05/18 11:02 AM
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Pablo, there are many thing that can be observed when tuning that can give indications of how best to leave the string in a stable condition. (Non-speaking tension somewhat higher than the speaking length, and the tuning pin progressively twisted from bottom to top.) The specific problem you mention seems to be the bearing friction is high. The strings will not "render" across the upper termination unless there is a large amount of tension difference between the speaking and non-speaking lengths.

Many have suggested using a lubricant. I haven't had much luck with them and it also brings up some important questions. Isn't it desirable to have friction at these bearing points? Won't that improve stability by making it less likely that the string will render unexpectedly if the tensions in the speaking and non-speaking parts are too different, or if the residual twist in the pin later relaxes? And what if the combination of the friction of the bearing points and the spring of the pins and the hammer technique are balanced just right, allowing you to pull the pitch up to target, and leaving it there in a very stable condition. But then, how would you know?

Here is what I suggest when you use a smooth pull to bring a string up to pitch and it stays there. First, "set" the pin to remove any residual twist, leaving it progressively twisted from bottom to top. ('Ya gotta' learn to do it by feel...) Then flagpole the pin slightly toward the lower termination and give the note a few firm blows - no need to pound. If the pitch is still where it belongs, flagpole the pin back where it belongs and move on. If you happen to be concerned that it might raise in pitch, you can do the same thing by flagpoling the pin away from the lower termination. In cases with extreme bearing friction, you may need to nudge the pin in a CCW direction after a smooth pull in order for the string to be pass these simple stability tests. Again, no need to pound.

FWIW, I'll take a piano with too much bearing friction over one with minimal bearing friction any day! smile


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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