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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2709966
01/30/18 12:04 AM
01/30/18 12:04 AM
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If you use headphones a lot, then it's a big deal, at least it is for me when I tested out the binaural capable 'X' models. This is basically borrowing technology from current Disklavier CX-SH. The last generation's non-binaural headphone sounds like listening to a stereo CD recording and not like playing a live piano.

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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: Osho] #2709993
01/30/18 04:47 AM
01/30/18 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Osho
Even if it was technically feasible to develop a digital piano hardware that can be user upgradable, there is no reason why Yamaha or any other DP manufacturer will invest in R&D engineering cost to do so. It makes no business sense. First of all, there is no competitor offering such systems. Second, it will reduce their chances of selling a newer model. Third, it will take R&D engineering budget from developing capabilities for which people will pay them money to upgrade their business model.

I, like many others in the thread, would love an upgradable DP - I would really prefer not to have to bother with VSTs - but it will not happen unless a newcomer introduces such a capability in the market first and takes significant business away from Yamaha/Kawai/Roland etc.

Thanks,
Osho




Maybe so, but that's taking a dim view of business potential. This is basically to say that it makes no business sense to make anything at all of enduring value. (I would love them to admit as much in their marketing brochures!)

But it isn't necessarily so. As you mention, the Nord business model includes change and upgrading. Presumably, this is one reason why it's so expensive - country of origin and small scale operation being others. So a 'long life' hybrid piano would be expensive, but the USP, which would be heavily marketed, would be that the piano will grow and improve through the years. What you are buying now is the best you can get, but it will still be cutting edge technology in years to come. State of the art in a decade hence, yet also an enduring piece of furniture.

It is possible that you are right, though, and people are so used to built in obsolescene, and the throw away economy that we really do prefer to chuck stuff out every 10 years and get a shiny new one. Grim.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2709996
01/30/18 05:13 AM
01/30/18 05:13 AM
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There are two things about Nord which is not comparable with Yamaha AG : 1/ competition : the advantage of Nord may make some people choose it instead of Roland or Yamaha. In the other way, Yamaha had no competitors when they designed AG. Now, they have Kawai, but I don’t think this would make them copy Nord. 2/ as I said, the flexibility is interesting because Nord will not limit to Yamaha/Bösendorfer. If an AG is shipped with flash, but the only pianos are from Yamaha/Bösendorfer, the advantage is very reduced. I don’t think Yamaha will propose Steinway sounds for obvious reasons.

I don’t think there are upgrades about Nord pianos : the 1GB flash can’t be changed. You can only change the samples according to your needs. Something like VRM can’t be added.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2709998
01/30/18 05:25 AM
01/30/18 05:25 AM
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I work in the concert and stage lighting field developing products of comparable value to digital pianos. For comparison, our products retail from $250-$40,000.
If digital piano manufacturers are anything like the company I work for, the most probable reasons that DP manufacturers don't put high end upgradable components in their pianos are:
1) planned obsolescence, and
2) product margins.

I was surprised to find out that manufacturers in the lighting industry tend to want at least 100% markup on R&D and material costs.
Dealers also demand 100% markup, so $2500 in hardware costs will likely retail for $10,000 by the time they make it to the consumer.
These are real numbers by the way, which is why I'm not telling you who I work for. Of course, margins do vary from product to product.

Even with these markups, several major lighting companies closed shop last year, or got out of the lighting market altogether!
As a consumer though, I would pay many thousands extra for an upgradeable piano but I'm sure most consumers would baulk at the extra costs involved.

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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2710001
01/30/18 05:40 AM
01/30/18 05:40 AM
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You make some good points, parnassus. I wonder how many people think that $10 worth of components in the factory can result in a product retailing for $200.
It's because there are many activities (and people) that must be paid for.
So ... you're not just buying a piano. You're paying for ...
  • Marketing
  • Design
  • Supply chain operations
  • Vendor qualification
  • Regulatory compliance
  • Quality assurance
  • Intellectual property rights
  • Transportation
  • Inventory costs
  • Sales commissions
  • Warranty claims
  • Waste disposal
  • Bookkeeping
  • Taxes

And lots more. Competition is what holds those margins DOWN TO "ONLY" 100%.

Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: MacMacMac] #2710005
01/30/18 06:48 AM
01/30/18 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You make some good points, parnassus. I wonder how many people think that $10 worth of components in the factory can result in a product retailing for $200.
It's because there are many activities (and people) that must be paid for.
So ... you're not just buying a piano. You're paying for ...
  • Marketing
  • Design
  • Supply chain operations
  • Vendor qualification
  • Regulatory compliance
  • Quality assurance
  • Intellectual property rights
  • Transportation
  • Inventory costs
  • Sales commissions
  • Warranty claims
  • Waste disposal
  • Bookkeeping
  • Taxes

And lots more. Competition is what holds those margins DOWN TO "ONLY" 100%.

In the light of that, it's amazing - well nigh miraculous - that anyone has ever made and sold anything of enduring value. But it has happened, nevertheless.

Last edited by toddy; 01/30/18 08:48 AM. Reason: Grammar error

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2786452
11/30/18 12:31 PM
11/30/18 12:31 PM
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Pennsylvania
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Here in central (rural) PA there is a Yamaha shop that is the only piano store within, roughly, an hour’s drive. Given the recent flurry of discussion about the 515, I visited this shop during some downtime from hectic work schedule. It is a small shop that also sells guitars and a variety of accessories and books. They currently have no 515.

The salesperson who greeted me did not seem to be aware of the 515’s recent birth but says the store’s boss is Yamaha’s Regional Sales executive .... I guess this to mean either Northeast or Mid-Atlantic region however it is Yamaha slices this particular pie.

Be this as it may, they have an N3 ( & 2 & 1) on display. I sat down and spent a few minutes that allowed me to realize that the N3 action & feel made it much easier to produce desired dynamics, particularly pp, compared to both my HP508 and MP7.

The price tag hanging on the n3 is 19,999 US which I believe has been the usual msrp since it’s introduction long ago in Piano albeit perhaps not Yamaha years. Using the 3Mac formula, I estimate 14,000 to be in the ballpark of an asking price while the N3 was still the current model. Now that the 3x has been out a good year or more, would anyone care to suggest a reasonable (depreciated) asking price for either a new or demo N3?


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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2786493
11/30/18 01:51 PM
11/30/18 01:51 PM
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N3 is going for about half original price in Switzerland - around $10k. N1 for half that. It's a good time to pick up a bargain on the older technology, but good action.

Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2786878
12/01/18 07:47 PM
12/01/18 07:47 PM
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USA
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Originally Posted by madshi
So how much of an improvement do the new samples and better resonance handling bring? Is it a noticeable improvement, or only a very small one?

If it's a noticeable improvement, I'd rather wait for the N1X, to be honest.

Thank you guys!


The N3 is a small grand design. If you are thinking of the N1, maybe you should look at the N2. You can hear one of the PW guys playing one here: https://goo.gl/9K1xLi. It sounds good to me. wink


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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2786891
12/01/18 08:32 PM
12/01/18 08:32 PM
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Good prices for used N3s seem to be around $6-7k, depending on region and availability.

Asking price for a new N3X is about $13,500, so consider what kind of discount you would expect for a still new or demo last-gen unit.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2786896
12/01/18 08:57 PM
12/01/18 08:57 PM
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I think the difference between the NU1 and the NU1X in sound is huge. So I would never buy an N1 knowing that the technology in it is like 10 years old or so. If the do release an N1X, it would be awesome. Having the sound of the NU1X and the key action of the N1 in one piano would be my dream come true.

I’m also considering waiting for an N1X release before buying the NU1X.

Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2786907
12/01/18 10:16 PM
12/01/18 10:16 PM
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I'm curious as to why one would want to purchase a Hybrid like the N2, N3 e.t.c. vs a silent acoustic. They both seem to fill the very similar niches. I guess the Hybrid would probably be a bit lighter and not need tuning. Any other major differences in functionality?



Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: Haruki] #2786911
12/01/18 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Haruki
I think the difference between the NU1 and the NU1X in sound is huge. So I would never buy an N1 knowing that the technology in it is like 10 years old or so.


The 10-year old N3 still does things almost no modern DPs do (multi sampled output). And the sample fidelity is quite good. But yeah, it's an old engine now and doesn't include basic featured like string resonance.

If I were to buy an n1/n2/n3 today, it would be solely for the action, and uses to drive a VST for the piano tone.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: halherta] #2786947
12/02/18 04:39 AM
12/02/18 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by halherta
I'm curious as to why one would want to purchase a Hybrid like the N2, N3 e.t.c. vs a silent acoustic. They both seem to fill the very similar niches. I guess the Hybrid would probably be a bit lighter and not need tuning. Any other major differences in functionality?

Location, environment, practicality, space, cash flow, etc, none of these are about the instrument though.

Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: TomLC] #2786977
12/02/18 07:40 AM
12/02/18 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC

The N3 is a small grand design. If you are thinking of the N1, maybe you should look at the N2. You can hear one of the PW guys playing one here: https://goo.gl/9K1xLi. It sounds good to me. wink


I do like the sound of the N2, I don't think it's bad smile I like to blend with Pianoteq or Garritan CFX from time to time, for something different. I almost never play though listening to just Pianoteq or CFX by itself.


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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: toddy] #2787019
12/02/18 10:59 AM
12/02/18 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
....I wonder how many people think that $10 worth of components in the factory can result in a product retailing for $200.
It's because there are many activities (and people) that must be paid for.
So ... you're not just buying a piano.......... You're paying for .....

In the light of that, it's amazing - well nigh miraculous - that anyone has ever made and sold anything of enduring value. But it has happened, nevertheless.


In the early 90's I went to work in a Tech Support call center of a company that started in 76' with 2 guys in a garage having invented 1 product. By late 80's they had grown to 600 employees and a 15 acre campus marketing/manufacturing/selling/supporting hundreds of products ... a good place to work, bowing to a micro-managing BoD and share holders corpus was barely on the radar but not yet the company's raison d'etre ... owners and top management still interacted daily with employees, treated employees with genuine respect and shared the annual wealth by way of routine good will, wage increases and yearly bonuses. Tech Support was operated somewhat uniquely compared to others in this growing "value-added" industry; the call center techs performed both pre-sale and post-sale support. We frequently met with and got product training from the owners & operators of other similarly successful small American tech companies. One day the owner of a similarly-sized Cali tech manufacturer was visiting and explaining a new version widget .... talk about a then typical American success story, when I asked what his company's initials "IMC Corp" stood for, he said with a smile " its my company". Upon asking why the new product had replaced the brand of included wall-wart PS, this man's eyes glossed over as he proudly gushed with the explanation that the newer Chinese brand PS saved his company's factory a nickel ! , per unit , in producing compared to the older version and a matter of simple math for the high volume they expected to produce. 💲🙂

In light of that, anything human and or inanimate with or of lasting value continues to be amazing but diminishing returns in the increasingly artificial world continue to gain every day. In the mean time, cost, space, expense, practicality and electronic features are the main reasons I would consider purchasing an N3 or 3X versus a bonafide or silent AP/GP.


- Kawai MP7 w/ MDR7506 phones and LSR308 monitors
- Roland HP-508
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: Haruki] #2797646
01/01/19 11:55 PM
01/01/19 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Haruki
I’m also considering waiting for an N1X release before buying the NU1X.

I heard from a dealer that the N1X and N2X will be introduced later this month. Keep an eye on news from NAMM in a few weeks.

Last edited by DaveH; 01/01/19 11:57 PM.
Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: madshi] #2797784
01/02/19 10:55 AM
01/02/19 10:55 AM
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A dealer told me the same thing at the end of 2017 and that it would be available in 2018. It will be interesting to see if it comes up at NAMM. A service guy is coming out today for my N2, I'll ask him if he has heard anything.


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Re: how much better is N3X than N3, NU1X than NU3? [Re: DaveH] #2797796
01/02/19 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveH
Originally Posted by Haruki
I’m also considering waiting for an N1X release before buying the NU1X.

I heard from a dealer that the N1X and N2X will be introduced later this month. Keep an eye on news from NAMM in a few weeks.

Ooh, now I'm awake!

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