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What do You recommend how I go about learning so that I can tell where the beat lies for any piece of music in any time signature and in any measure for piano?

I want to do this so I can play with metronome clicks to match the beats and always be in tempo based on beats per minute for the specific music

can this be self taught or should I take music theory course , or lessons , I have some understanding , but not always certain

Can you tap your foot to music when you hear it ?

If I understand your question correctly what you need is some theoretical and practical study on time signatures and how the pulse works in music. Your goal should not be to be able to follow a metronome but to understand how the music flows in each case so that you can internalize the different time signatures and play according to the written notes fluently. This can be self taught in some cases but would be easier with a teacher. I recommend lessons with a teacher who will teach you theory and practice at the same time.

Do you mean by ear or from the sheet? Each one supports the other but they are not the same skill.


That's not necessarily a good idea. Music isn't metronomic. Sometimes you have to slow down or speed up slightly, sometimes the pulse changes in the middle of the music. Learn to do this reliably without the metronome.

For standard Western music (classical or jazz or pop), "the beat" is right at the barline. If there's a note written right after the barline (no intervening rest), _that_ note is "on the beat".

For the rest of the beats in the measure:

. . . Yes, you need to learn some theory about time signatures.

Either self-study, or a teacher, will let you do that.

I think using the metronome is a good idea. Yes, music isn't always metronomic. But if you can play reliably with the metronome, it will be much easier to bend and stretch the beats later on. If you can't play reliably with the metronome, it means you have serious problems that will get in the way of absolutely everything you do on the piano.

Look at the time signature and decide how many beats are in each measure.

For example, in 4/4 there might be 4 beats in the measure. In 2/2, there might be 2 beats. In 6/8, there might also be 2 beats.

The only way you are going to learn to quickly identify which specific beats the notes fall on is by reading a lot of music, so get started with that. Here are some things you can try:

1) Turn the metronome on and play, ensuring that there are the correct number of beats in every measure. This needs to be your overwhelming priority, completely non-negotiable. There must be the correct number of beats in every measure.

2) Listen to pieces with the score in front of you, tapping your finger on each beat.

3) Play only the notes that fall on the beats, and skip the others.

4) Decide on a time signature, and make up your own tunes, again ensuring that you have the right number of beats in each measure.

The pulse must always continue, no matter what.
It is more important that you have the correct number of beats in the measure than that you are playing the right notes, or that the dynamics are right, or that you avoid losing your place in the music.

Now, I'm assuming I'm addressing your question. If your question is "how can I learn to play at exactly 88 beats per minute without the use of a metronome for reference?", I have no clue.

It depends on the music you want to play. Some should be played exactly as notated, some requires rubato. Notation isn't perfect. It tells you exactly which keys to press, but not so exactly when. And how loud? That's very subjective.

Instead of trying to achieve an exact overall timing without a metronome, why not an earphone metronome that only you can hear? That's how movie and TV sound tracks are done.

when learning the piece, whether from sheet music, or by ear, you guys never really figure out where the beats are , on the music, and play alongside metronome?

And yes, I understand beat doesn't always match on the a note, could be a rest, or nothing at all,

Get someone who can play well (like a teacher) too show you how to find the beat.
Reading about how to find the beat is like dancing about architecture.

I don't use the metronome. Notating rhytm is fairly simple and with a little bit of practice it's normally easy to figure out what to play. There's just a little bit of math to learn.

Beats yes, metronome no. I only use the metronome to work on rhythms if I hear some unevenness but never in the initial stages of working out the rhythm. I was just sight reading a piece in 7/8 right now and playing without a metronome. I started by tapping out the odd meter (in this case it was 4+3) feeling the strongest beats (1 and 5) then, having that beat clearly imprinted in my mind I followed the score. That's what I usually do. First, feel the main beats then fill out the rest. It makes the music come out more musical than following along metronomically.

BTW, I know about strong and weak metronome sounds but I find that feature very annoying because when you miss a beat you have to wait a whole measure. I always use equal beats.

Jitin, I think you are mixing up two things: (1) giving a musical performance that includes a sense of beat and rhythm, vs. (2) using the metronome as a tool. These are quite separate things.


One thing is to be able to keep a steady beat on your own, without a metronome.

Another thing is to learn how to read music notation and be able to see on the music where the beat is.

Another thing is to understand the rhythm as notated, fitting subdivided notes within the beat or across notes.

Another thing is to be able to combine the three previous items: keep a steady beat while playing the correct rhythm. (And then later, in certain styles of music, to vary the beat with slight slowing down and speeding up.)


Yet another thing is to be able to play in time with a metronome. This is generally a tool used for other purposes, not as an end goal in itself. For example, you might use the it only briefly, before starting to play, to determine the tempo. You might use it to test or to develop your sense of internal rhythm. You might use it as a click track to put together a multi-track recording.

I think my question is for "Another thing is to learn how to read music notation and be able to see on the music where the beat is." plus by listening and telling where the beat is, and knowing how to use the metronome because I think metronome works with knowing where the beat is and playing with clicks.....is there books that I can buy to learn that, any that you recommend?

One of my 1st books in music theory was: Elementary Rudiments of Music by Barbara Wharram.
But that was in the ancient past and might not still be in print.
But there are loads of other good books on music theory.
Get one that a music education center recommends and is using if possible.
There might be one near you. And maybe sign up for a course at the same time.

The first part puzzles me every time I ready it: "Able to see on the music where the beat is". Something in there doesn't seem to be understood properly, because in written music, where the beat is, is crystal clear. In 4/4 music there are 4 beats in a measure, 1, 2, 3, 4 and that can be seen visually. If you understand time signatures, note values, and how note values work with time signatures, then it's a very obvious thing. But if one of these things went awry when you were learning first theory, then it would account for the confusion you seem to be having. On the one hand you had some amount of theory, but I don't know if it translated into actually using it for music. You can listen to music, and pick it up from there. The music (heard / played) side doesn't seem to be connected to the read side - and in regards to beats and maybe not values in particular.

Sometimes (I assume in op's case) it's just a matter of not having learned/taught any of the theory at all. But I also had a friend who had extreme trouble understanding the underlying math. The idea of the note values as fractions of the whole note/each measure just did not go through until we used a very concrete tool. It would take quite a few words to explain, a picture would be easier. But basically made a circle from paper which was cut into divisions with the note values printed on them and then learned to put them together correctly so that the end result fits neatly within the whole note. Only after that practice did we go to actual measures of music and analysed different meters and how to count them.

I taught theory to a student quite a few years ago who had been self-taught originally. Some of the things that can get mixed up are the concept of relative note value (how whole notes, half, quarter, eighths etc.) related to each, versus the ratios and values in time signatures. One thing I disagree with strongly is when a shortcut is taken, all time signatures first being taught in quarter notes (4/4, 3/4, 2/4) giving the impression that a beat and a quarter note are the same thing. Then later when 3/8 or 2/2 are introduced, there is massive confusion.

I like the idea of your visual tool for relative note values, Outou.

It was very much improvised, I might still have the material somewhere so I could post a picture. It just seemed going through the charts in the book we used were not sufficient after I realized what the actual problem was and why she could not figure out how to count correctly in music. Her piano teacher either had not realized or gave up trying to explain. The idea was not just to visualize but actually have some hands on practice on how to build the rhythm part of notation. With a fun playful aspect because I could see how stressing everything related to math was to her. This was an adult with not so fond memories of math lessons in school.

I cannot remember how I was initially taught time signatures myself.

Several of the metronome apps sub-divide the beat by cycling around a visual shape. I personally find it pleasing; it re-enforces the cyclical nature of each measure. And it’s a particularly good way to visualize polyrhythms.

Where I am, right now, for the genre I play, I don't.

I do run into stuff that is tricky sometimes that I have to figure out.

The metronome is a tool and counting is a tool. Clapping rhythms is a tool. Listening to music is a tool. Speaking rhythms is a tool. Use them.

At some point, you internalize it and you fall back on the tools when you run into problems.

I recall some study with chess players where advanced chess players are able to see 'patterns that come up in play' and then quickly solve problems. But if you were to throw random patterns at advanced chess players, they struggle as much as novices. Music is kind of similar... if you were to throw crazy multi-meter stuff at me, I know I would really have an issue. But I think if you stick with music and find the music you like, you'll get the rhythmic themes of that style and not have to stress so much.

But in the meantime, hang onto any technique that works for you !