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This is a thread for unique pianos on eBay or Craigslist. Not high-priced junk being sold by delusional owners as in another thread, but pianos you find interesting.

I do not know the reputation of the sellers or how good these pianos are. As always, caveat emptor.

I will start off with two:

A red Otto Altenburg grand: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Otto-Altenberg-Grand-Piano/122920005102

A see-through case grand: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spectacula...ano-Free-worldwide-shipping/202194852677

Certainly a bit different. I think I could get enough of either quite soon, though.

I might like the red one. It's hard to tell the color, though, because of reflections.

" ... some light scratches that come with any polyester piano..."

Cheers

I liked the red one as well, though hard to tell how extensive the finish blemishes are from the photos. Too much flash / lighting glare in that shot. Think the "Otto Altenburg" is a Samick.

The see-through one looked interesting because usually the big piano companies just hand-build one for exhibiting at events. However, the name ("Steinlager") is clearly a stencil brand name. Wonder who actually makes it?

Doesn't Steinlager translate as stone beer?

Google Translate says it means "stone warehouse."
I think "steinbier" is the German word you're looking for to describe stone beer.
Maybe we'll get a stencil piano one day with even funnier faux-German.

One aspect of this thread not readily recognized, is the strange and interesting people behind the interesting eBay and CL finds (relating to pianos, of course). You can usually tell a scammer pretty quickly by asking a few questions. One obvious clue is "the piano is located in another state" or, "I'm located in another state", or, "my associates will be handling the sale" or ...

One of the most interesting sellers I've ever dealt with was the owner of 6'8" Kimball Viennese model grand listed on CL. I was genuinely interested in the piano and called the owner. I was interrogated by the owner like I was a criminal. First, I asked when I could schedule a time to come and look at the piano. He wanted me to give him my home phone number/land-line to verify I was who I said I was. Okay, fair enough. Next, he asked me if I needed to sell my current piano in order to buy his piano. I said no, I had the funds the buy his piano. He asked me again if I had the money in my bank account to buy his piano ($6000/$7000 I forgot the exact price). I assured him again that I had the money to buy the piano.

Next, he said he did not want strangers coming to his home and wanted to make sure I was going to buy the piano before he would allow me to come and look at it. In essence, he wanted me to agree to buy the piano before he would tell me his address and schedule a time to look it. I told him there was no way I would agree to buy his piano first without looking at it and playing it first. He said in that case, we could not do business.

Was he the lunatic or was I?

Again, generally speaking, it doesn't take long to figure out who you're dealing with if you can actually talk to them on the phone. I hope he sold his piano, but under those terms, I seriously doubt it...

Rick

That seller was definitely unreasonable. No one is going to spend $6,000+ on a piano totally sight unseen.
He probably had to have a dealer pick up the piano and sell it on consignment if he wasn't willing to have potential buyers visit his home.

There is a large eBay seller (which will go unnamed) in New York that I think is not on the up-and-up. I inquired about a semi-concert grand offered for $4,000. They said they could deliver a piano "anywhere" for about $1,000, but when they learned I was in Colorado, they said they "couldn't sell me the piano." Not even "we can't move it for $1,000 - will cost more like $2,000." Asked if I could arrange my own piano mover, and ... radio silence. (Scammer self-selected out because he knew he was dealing with someone who knew what he was doing that could get him in trouble?) He didn't have another customer lined up. The piano stayed on his Web site and he actually *raised* the price.

Another conclusion I've come to, which has been somewhat surprising to an extent, is the fact that many of the used piano ads on eBay and CL seem to be private sellers; in reality, the seller is not a private seller, but a dealer under the guise of a private seller.

I'll go a step further; I would venture to say that probably 75% of the piano ads on CL (at least in the Atlanta area) are from one particular used piano dealer. And, chances are, this dealer is likely one of many...

Just sayin'.

Rick

I've experienced the same in our area in Indianapolis. A couple of dealers and a large rebuilder in the region are using CL to advertise their instruments, but they do not identify themselves in their ads.

I thought this was interesting - piano shells for keyboards.
https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/msd/d/piano-shells-for-keyboards/6460129231.html

And on the theme of red pianos:
https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/msg/d/beautiful-red-grand-piano/6452863386.html

Is that a piano or a fancy red credenza for displaying family "treasures"?

Regards,

Now that's just scary.

This reminds me of the CL listing below. The price goes down $25 every couple of days:

https://baltimore.craigslist.org/msg/d/boss-gt-100-effect-pedal/6431654367.html

He wants to meet in a parking lot, you hand him cash, and he hands you the unit. Don't know his name. Don't know where he lives. In other words, if there's a problem, you have no way to get back to him.

I was interested $100 ago, and emailed to say "can we meet somewhere with an electrical outlet, so I can verify that it works?" Still waiting for an answer, and the price has dropped 4 times since then.

He's reworded the ad a little too: removed "parking lot" from the meeting location, and added "it works."

But I know he's honest, 'cause he says, "Please NO Scammers."

Just another thought...

You have to be very careful who you deal with on CL. Not only scammers, who you usually never see or meet in person, lurk on CL, but real thieves and murders lurk on CL. It usually involves items like smart-phones, jewelry, and automobiles. There is not just one Craig's List murderer, there are many.

Also, there are certain areas in my neck of the woods that are plagued with criminal gang activity. There is gang activity that goes on 20 miles or so from my home. In the metro Atlanta area, as pretty a picture as the politicians try to paint of Atlanta, it is crime ridden and very dangerous in certain areas. Shootings, murders, and robberies, among just a few harden crime activities, happen daily. But these are things you don't hear about much when Atlanta is trying to woo Amazon to build it's new head-quarters hub there.

Not to get on a soap-box or OT, but just a few thoughts about the risks involved in doing business on CL. The reputable piano store is by far the safer option, although likely more expensive...

Rick

Hi Rick
Craigslist is like anything else, use your common sense. Haven’t you bought a pianos from craigslist before? I have. When you contact the lister, ask questions. If you agree to see the piano and get the address, is it in an area of town you would feel comfortable? If yes, proceed. If you get to the house and you feel uncomfortable in anyway with the person that answers the door, don’t go in. A little common sense can get you a quite good piano.

Great advice!

Yes, I have bought a few pianos advertised on Craigslist, and I've sold a few. The safest I've ever felt when looking at a used piano was when I bought my Yamaha C7 from a large Pentecostal Church. My wife (who is severely disabled and confined to a wheel-chair) and I attended the Church services on a Sunday morning before looking at the piano. Some of the members of the Church gathered around and prayed for my wife sitting in her wheel-chair, unsolicited. That was fine with me, because I believe in prayer.

After the service, where we got to hear a very well-known college choir, the music director took us to another building and I looked at the C7. It took me about 30 minutes to make up my mind I wanted to buy the piano. That was great buying experience.

I made these comments because they are an actual experience and true. Not to promote any sort of religion, which is against the policies on PW.

Rick

Great story Rick!

Having a piano store act as an intermediary between buyer and seller is more beneficial to the store than the buyer or seller...

Because the piano store has costs for floor space, staffing, inventory, utilities, etc. and needs to turn a profit, they'll offer a piano seller about half what the piano is worth.
And then the buyer will pay twice what it would cost compared to buying directly from the seller.
That is why I prefer private-party sales. I have never been in a situation where I felt like I was risking my life dealing with gang-bangers or criminals.
Most private individuals selling grand pianos that I have encountered were upper-middle-class, older adults who were moving/downsizing or upgrading to a newer and better instrument.

It doesn't work in all instances, though. A lot of people who bought a piano in a store will trade their piano in at the store to upgrade, especially if the store offers "full value credit" for the trade-in.
Then the piano is back in the store and and priced to reflect the costs of running a showroom.
The high-tier brands are almost never found for CL private-party sales (though eBay has begun to change this ... but cross-country piano moves cost $2,000 and traveling to evaluate pianos is expensive).

The picture of the transparent piano is lifted right off of Alibaba. If it is the same piano, there's quite a bit of detail on the listing there, and presumably one could order it directly.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...nd-Piano-custom-acrylic_60350448445.html

Aha! Good catch, David. Interesting to note for the OP that by cutting out the questionable middleman, it's even possible to order a 275 cm concert grand from this company! The devil is in the details of this listing...if out of stock, the manufacturer can be ready to ship in 30-40 days. That's absurdly, alarmingly fast production time in the piano universe, and not a figure that a person would associate with quality.

That transparent piano reminds me of a Schimmel I came across in Shanghai. I can't figure out how to post pics in threads anymore as the image gallery isn't providing links anymore (that I can find anyway), but the link to the image gallery itself is here:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2707751/transparent-schimmel.html

Here you go, Cassia.




Rick

With so much less wood in these acrylic-cabinet pianos, how does the resonance compare to that of a piano with a conventional wood cabinet?

Regards,

I'd be concerned about the acrylic yellowing with age. As far as I know, there's no remedy for that.

Too bad this piano is in Australia: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Estonia-9ft-Concert-Grand-Piano-from-Steinway-Specialists/202054968676

An Estonia concert grand for AUD$28,000 (about US$22,000). I don't believe their shipping estimate of AUD$1,800.

Link to the page with the Chinese wholesale 275cm concert grand: https://wholesaler.alibaba.com/product-detail/Luxury-furniture-custom-bar-piano-9_60520829106.html

The overall trend in the US is cutting out middlemen. Why do you think we have a "retail apocalypse?" People are buying everything on-line these days, including clothes, pet food, electronics, etc.

People like me buy pianos on-line because every middleman adds a price uplift. On a piano, that can amount to tens of thousands of dollars.
I didn't win the Powerball or inherit a fortune, so those sums of money translate to months-to-years of hard work.

Think about how many hours you would have to spend on the job in order to buy a Steinway D at MSRP, and then get back to me. In my own case, that's more than two years of pre-tax income. So much money that I don't think I could save that much in 20 years. And if I did, really I should be funding my retirement account more generously...

Corporations are all too willing to off-shore my job to save a buck. As long as we accept that as a society, is it wrong for me to question brand name equity and look for more affordable, "good enough" options from Asia? That is what corporate management is doing to me constantly. While the greedy CEOs earn enough to buy another Steinway D every day, it remains a far-off dream for me.

But that said, I agree that 40 days is PDQ for manufacturing a concert grand. This would definitely be a factory-produced instrument that doesn't get a lot of individualized attention. Tech work would almost certainly be required after the sale to get the most out of this instrument. I don't think I could stomach the risk of $15,886 to order a 275cm concert grand from China, sight unseen. That is a case where I would pay more to buy from a dealer (such as the Steck link I shared earlier), where I could see / touch / hear the goods. Assuming the Steck is a similar mass-produced Chinese 9-footer, we now know ... wholesale price $16K, retail price $25K.

But ... what if the other guys are building their 9-footers for $30,000 or so but charging you six times their production cost? That's a lot of fat and happy middlemen while someone like me is told to do without.

Shipment is via AU Post Express. Do you just put stamps all over the lid and drop it in a mailbox?!

I would guess from the style of the Estonia name on the fallboard, that this is a considerably older Estonia. Some of the older Estonias, depending on their vintage were far from being refined instruments. "New hammers, action and recent strings" might be red flags; how old is this piano that it needed new hammers, new action and new strings? What kind of hammers, action, etc. etc?

Regards,

Wow, a couple of concert grands got listed overnight for cheap.

Baldwin D in mahogany finish, starting bid $2,500: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldwin-D-Concert-Grand-Piano-9-ft-grand/173118852910
A 9-ft. Knabe, starting bid $2,000: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Knabe-Concert-Grand-109039/142662684406

The Knabe, from the photos and description, seems like a "core" for refinishing and rebuilding. An old, beat-up piano likely needing substantial work. At the very least, new keytops and refinishing (quite a lot of $$$ to refinish a 9-footer). Likely also new strings and soundboard repairs.

The Baldwin looks to be in better shape. Seller claims a copy of a tech evaluation is available. I don't have room for any more pianos, but am sure tempted to inquire about that one...

NB: Moving a concert grand cross-country costs about $2,500 to $3,000. In this case, the move may cost more than the piano unless you are close by.

That Baldwin D sounds like shenanigans. The seller needs to get rid of it quick because his other concert grand is coming home from the shop. But if you look at his history he recently sold a Knabe for $500. I wonder how many pianos he's juggling? The other guy at least clearly identifies himself as a dealer.

I seriously just want to rent a Uhaul and drive to ohio to get that baldwin. but then I would have to get it into my house, and my parents would kill me, and I have no time to skip out on college.

I feel the same way. I have a soft spot for Baldwins, often preferring them to the comparable Steinway. Also I don't have the space for it, and my wife would kill me.

The seller of the Baldwin sent me a report from a piano technician who looked at the Baldwin on two occasions. He included his real name in his E-mail correspondence.

A summary of the issues in the tech report:
1. Piano likely previously rebuilt. Plate appeared to have been repainted multiple times.
2. A few strings had been replaced since the last rebuild.
3. One tuning pin had been tapped down.
4. Finish is not perfect. Checking and a gouge on the top lid.
5. Problems with damper timing between bass and treble; damper lift tray may have become warped.
6. Bass tone considered "a little under-powered" for a 9' concert grand. However, down-bearing on bridges is still good.
7. The soundboard, while intact with no cracks, has had its finish darken with age.

This is an old model. Originally manufactured in 1909.

It's not that far away from me. If I had the time to spend, I'd be tempted to drive over and take a look. I definitely would if I had space for it!!

This could be close to a core piano. The evaluating tech can't even tell for sure if the piano was rebuilt which seems to imply any rebuilding was done long ago. Regarding the "rebuild" we don't know when, by whom, what was replaced, quality of the work, etc. "Checking and gouge" are way worse than "not perfect". IOW the cost could be 10-50k for a complete rebuild by a good rebuilder depending on what was done.

In addition the seller's reason for a low price sounds fishy. Even if he really needs space this piano could be stored on its side w/o taking up much room.

If the piano needed new hammers, action, etc. it is not an Estonia made since Laul became the owner of the company. Those pre-Laul pianos were not considered very good, and are totally different in quality from Estonias after Laul took over the company.

My take on eBay sales (for anything, not just pianos) is "price too low?" "story doesn't quite add up?" It's a scam. One doesn't need to know the nature of the scam or how it works. One merely needs to recognize it is a scam.

I'm not 100% convinced it is a scam, but don't think I am going to pursue the Baldwin listing. If everything is on the up-and-up, the piano would likely need several thousands in additional work. I'm not prepared to take on a five-figure restoration project currently.

On the Baldwin, all his feedback except one is for being a buyer...

Some people really like those old Knabe concert grands! There are a couple folks here who have them too, if I'm not mistaken.

The Baldwin sounds intriguing, but likely not much more than a core. When a tech writes an appraisal, I suspect that she has to be very judicious in choice of words to avoid antagonizing their client (who may truly love the piano). Reading between the lines of this appraisal, it sounds like it is in need of a lot of expensive work. At the same time, the owner must understand this, as he's asking only 1/10 of the appraised value.

I would not expect the Baldwin to be worth anywhere near $25,000. On a good day, it might fetch $5,000 or more. The opening bid price is reasonable.

I agree, this Baldwin looks to be a core. Just the refinishing costs for a 9' piano put it in this category. I also think it would likely need restringing and other tech work, also expensive.
Maybe I'd take a chance on it if I lived nearby and could get it for $1,000, but someone else can have this one...

The Knabe is also a core, but a little less expensive.

The meaning of core is not related to the cost of rebuilding but what has to be done. A core piano requires replacing virtually everything except the case(which would be refinished) and plate and maybe the soundboard to put the piano in excellent playing condition. If the non case parts were great it would not be a core even if the case was terrible.
If it is a real core or even just requires extensive work but not a full rebuilding, then whether you buy it for 1K or 2.5K would be insignificant compared to the cost of the work.

I don't need a second one but it's tempting: 1891 Steinway Model B - ~11K

I mentioned estate sales before. There's a Steinway O not too far from me. But I wonder if the baseball is worth more.

https://www.estatesales.net/IL/La-Grange/60525/1770513

Actually, it looks like they're trying to auction it off before the sale.

http://www.ctonlineauctions.com/detail.asp?id=678875

If that checks out with a tech, it looks intriguing. If only the lid needs refinishing, that's quite a bit less $$$$ than refinishing an entire piano.
Also, I think there are upgrades to update older versions of Pianodisc. Also, I think QRS offers an upgrade to retrofit a Pianodisc with a PNOmation control unit to update it as well.

I would be certainly curious about any piano owner that buys a rebuilt Steinway and then doesn’t tune it for 20 years.......,,,And again, out of curiosity only, I wonder if the techs on this forum think it would be successfully tunable after 20 years

This Steinway has detailed woodwork on the music desk so may serve as an antique / furniture piece. Also, sometimes pianos go to neglect when a family situation changes - divorce, death of a family member, kids moving out, kids stop playing, etc. If no one in the house plays, many people don’t shell out $150 every 6 months for maintenance. But then, most of those types would not own Steinways...

Pianos out of tune for a while, if not suffering pinblock issues, can be retuned successfully with a pitch raise and frequent tunings for the first year. Then it should stay in tune like any other well-maintained piano.

As always, a tech evaluation is in order to avoid getting a lemon.

Hi Colin
Yes I am aware of pitch raises, But I curiously wanted the feedback from technicians on this forum if this is usually successful on pianos that had not been touched for 20 years. I think they would have the experience of seeing many pianos In similar circumstances, and could therefore provide some input

Of course you’re right the family circumstances can change. But that does not answer the question for me about why someone would not pay $150 every few years for a tuning When they bought a rebuilt Steinway.

Not sure how 'unique' or 'different' this one is, but anyone facing a white piano, one just popped up in my local market:

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/msg/d/wurlitzer-grand-piano-white/6476670311.html

Osho

If these sell near the minimum bid price, maybe one day I will be a "snob" with a Steinway.
Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steinway-S...uo-Art-65-w-175-rolls-bench/192440920412

Listing says it is a 6'5", but I suspect it's really the 6'2" model A outfitted with a Duo-Art roll player system. Or did Steinway make a separate 6'5" model in the '20s?

I know, probably needs substantial work both to the piano and the reproducing player system ... which is expensive to do. It definitely needs a new set of key tops.

The $2,500 Baldwin D disappeared from the 'bay. The seller found a buyer off eBay and cancelled the auction.
The Knabe core listing ended with no takers as of this morning. Wonder if it will be relisted?

Price of the Wurlitzer white piano seems high to me. 5'8" white grand piano for $6,000. I think that was about the price new in shops about 10 years ago (not sure what they sell for today).

I have read stories from technicians who successfully tuned pianos that have been neglected for 20 years or more, and had gone more than a whole step flat. Though usually a piano neglected that long is going to need additional work beyond the pitch raise ... at least some action repairs/adjustment if not a full regulation. If the piano sat around unused but in a friendly environment, it will be well-preserved.

I, too, think it odd that someone would possess a fine piano like a rebuilt Steinway and not pay for tunings at least once per year, whether or not they play the piano often. Otherwise, it just takes up space and why not just sell it to someone who wants it? Clearly, demand for Steinways outstrips supply given the prices they command...

I don't find it odd at all that some (many) acoustic piano owners choose not to have their pianos tuned very often, even Steinway owners. In fact, it is more likely the rule rather than the exception.

Not all piano owners see the importance/necessity of having their pianos tuned on a regular basis. Most of the used pianos I've purchased had not been tuned in a while.

The fact is, a piano that is very stable in terms of tuning stability could go a year or two, or longer, without needing a full tuning.

I'm no piano tech, but it is my opinion that a piano that is not tuned in a long time may become way out of tune, and it can take several tunings to get it back stable, but I don't see the logic that it is damaging to the piano in general. But that is just my unprofessional opinion.

Rick

It may often be the case that those who don't play and who know nothing about the maintenance of a piano think: "I don't play it, no one else plays it, so there's no point in paying to have it tuned. It still displays all my family photographs very well."

Regards,

Every used piano I have bought needed tuning. It was something sitting around that the seller hadn't used in a while and just wanted to get rid of.

What baffled me is that someone would pay a lot extra for a top brand but not maintain their piano. And if you want top dollar when selling a used piano, having it already tuned helps tremendously. It provides an attestation to the buyer that the piano is tunable (i.e., no loose tuning pins / pin block issues). Also, although the tuning will likely drift a little when the piano is moved, for a short local move the piano is immediately usable to the buyer when it is delivered. Then it can be fine-tuned a month later after settling in.

See my most recent post on this thread.

Regards,

I saw your post. But a $500 heap 'o' junk old grand piano displays photos equally as well as a rebuilt Steinway.
The former I expect to be allowed to fall into disrepair. The latter, not so much.

A Steinway OR is a model L with a DuoArt player.

Anyone in the Bay Area wanting a 4'11" baby grand for pocket change?
Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183059516227

Tokai is entry level but I remember a forum member here had one and got it playing nicely before upgrading to a Yamaha C7.

This is one of those "moving but can't take the piano" listings. Really, not worth $400 to move the piano with you? Especially if the buy now price is $500? Seller comes out ahead $900 but even a Tokai baby grand is worth more than that (if playable).

If I were in the Bay Area I would have grabbed this already!

That was me, Colin. Yes, I did enjoy the Tokai grand while I owned it. A couple of the dealer members here didn't speak too highly of the Tokai, but yet they sold them back in the day. I guess in the piano biz, opinions about certain brands and brand loyalty can change like the wind, depending on what they are selling at the moment.

Before Google stopped recognizing PW, if you Googled "Tokai piano" you'd get more hits on Piano World regarding the Tokai than any other site, and most of the threads were about my infamous Tokai.

I felt like perhaps I had a hand in putting the Tokai brand on the Internet map...

Still not a bad entry-level grand (made in Japan) at the right price.

Rick

"Playing nicely"? The buyer even admitted it was his first piano so he didn't know much about pianos at the time. How good can a piano costing less than the price of good piano bench likely be?

The seller doesn't come out ahead $900 because they no longer have a piano.

I think it makes more sense to buy one good piano than to consider buying a lot of very inexpensive ones unless, perhaps, if one likes to tinker with them.

You can carry US$350 in change, in your pockets? You must have very big pockets.

Seller ended the Tokai listing due to an "error." Probably meant to set the minimum price at $3,500 and buy-now price at $5,000 ... not $350 and $500 respectively. Or maybe it was a scam.



As discussed in my thread about shopping the used piano market, price and quality don't always move in lock-step. This looked like the classic "moving, can't take piano" case in which the seller lets it go cheap to avoid paying for a piano move.
I didn't try to buy this piano ... no more room for pianos here, and it would cost at least $1,000 to ship from Northern California to Colorado. But the brand name would not have deterred me if I were local, had more room, and could get it moved for $300.
Rickster mentioned above that he had a Tokai and enjoyed it despite the brand's mediocre reputation. I remember from his threads, that the Tokai left his home in better shape than when he bought it! Tech work took an entry-level piano and made it an enjoyable instrument until he wanted to upgrade.

Some people here may have only a $1,000 budget and are looking for a real piano. That is why I share these listings.

I know that I am unusual in that I want to have multiple budget pianos. Despite that, I still haven't spent the kind of money it costs to buy a single high-end piano.
Most people would not feel a need to have more than two pianos (most piano teachers' studios I've seen have two pianos, or one acoustic + one digital). The aspiring piano technician may want to buy a fixer-upper piano to learn to work on pianos, or to fix and flip at a higher price if the work is not expensive to complete.



LOL ... not literally pocket change, but that was an outrageously low asking price for an entry-level baby grand nonetheless...

Regarding the Tokai, that was my first baby grand piano, and I didn't know much about pianos at the time. I paid $4250 for the piano, and then $350 for a professional mover to move it. It served me well during the time I owned it. It was a G-180 (5'10") and a copy of the Steinway "O".

I sold it for $3000, and it was in better shape when I sold it than when I bought it. They guy who bought it was a trained classical pianist and was thrilled with it...

It is the piano pictured in my forum avatar.

Rick

Rick -

Sorry you lost money on the sale of the Tokai. But the pianist who bought it from you got a nice, under-appreciated piano to enjoy at an affordable price. I don't think you made a bad or ignorant choice. Most people buying their first piano don't go whole-hog and spend high five-figure sums. They find a reasonably good entry-level instrument under $10,000 and start playing. Then when they appreciate what more money will get you, they upgrade! Just like what you did.

I know my "snob appeal" thread stirred up a hornet's nest, but these are exactly the kind of piano that I think more people should consider in their search. The Steinway O was a successful design. Some would say the Tokai is a "Japanese knock-off." Some truth to that, but the buyer with $3,000-$4,500 to spend will come home empty-handed from Steinway Hall. Whereas they can get the "knock-off" within their budget and have a perfectly good piano to play!

There's a world of difference between not moving in lockstep and thinking $300 for a grand has more than the faintest chance of getting a decent piano. Most people who need to sell a piano quickly due to a move don't give them away for virtually nothing. It's more likely they reduce the price but not to an absurd level.For people with that budget, almost every source from dealers to reference books to PW members recommend a used vertical or digital. When looking for a grand at that price the chances that it will be pretty bad are considerably greater than if one looks for a vertical or new digital.

A Steinway O costs in the neighborhood of 80K. While some, including me, would say that for 80K there are better choices, it' not reasonable that a near 6' piano costing 4.5K would be good. That's going way too far in the other direction, If you double or triple that amount there may be pretty good choices but 4.5K is just too low. It's not reasonable to think a piano at that price is a "knock off" in a realistic sense.

I don’t understand a thread about inexpensive pianos. If I don’t have much money for instance, and I live in the bay area, I can check my own craigslist for inexpensive pianos in my area. Unless we have personal knowledge of the individual piano’s quality, aren’t we doing a disservice to potential buyers by posting anything about the piano? A $400 piano could be a great deal, and it could be $400 too much for the piano. An inexperienced buyer may well likely read ‘wow, let me buy it’ into these postings... and that is not warranted without more information.

I would think the same logic would apply whether I have $1000 $10,000 or $20,000 to spend on a piano. If I only have $1000, I could not afford it buy a lemon and waste some of my total allocation.

Here are some more pictures of my Japanese made Steinway O Tokai G-180

Like I said, it served me well for a few years. I enjoyed learning to play on it, learning to tune on it, and learning some valuable piano tech skills on it, including stabbing the rock-hard hammers with a voicing needle to tone down the brightness a bit. For what I paid for it, I was not afraid I was going to do more harm than good, which I never did. Everything I did to the Tokai was an improvement.

Again, the guy who bought it was thrilled with it...

Posting ad links is not an inherent disservice to buyers. The piano might be junk, or it might be a diamond in the rough. As always, caveat emptor. Have a tech check out a piano you're seriously interested in buying. A tech check should protect against buying a lemon.

It does not cost high five figures to get a decent used piano on the resale market. Buyers should not resign themselves to digital or an upright without considering all their options.

I bought two Samick-made grands at $3,200 and $2,500 respectively. While not state-of-the-art, they are not junk by any means. A $3,000-$4,500 budget is not too low. It takes patience, savvy, and tech evaluations, but it can be done. A decent grand for less than $5,000.

Rickster's photos above do not depict a heap o' junk. That Tokai is a respectable piano and with a little tech work, blossomed into a pretty nice piano. Yes, the Yamaha C7 is nicer, but costs 4X-6X times as much. The budget-minded pianist would be much happier with that Tokai than with no piano at all.

my first grand was a small yamaha cosmetically battered from its hard use in a bar or nightclub, cigarette burns in the finish as evidence. at the time, early 70s, these pianos were probably a better quality instrument than similar grands yamaha made later called GH 1, and it was a great player, responsive, robust sound for its size. if not for this piano, might not have kept playing on and off (on now) through the years, and never would have afforded it except for the huge discount from surface damages.

No one on this thread or any other PW thread ever said it costs in the high five figures to get even a decent new piano and certainly not a decent used piano. My most recent post, in case I didn't make it clear, was about new pianos and at 4.5K virtually everyone says it doesn't make sense to buy a grand since the quality would be so low.
No one said Rickster's piano was junk, but comparing it to a Steinway O, just because it's design has "some similarities", would be going to the other extreme. Having any piano is better than no piano, but that doesn't mean that one should choose grands that are priced very low over uprights or digitals at the same price. The choice isn't between having no piano or having a grand.

For new pianos with a budget of 5k most agree that a vertical or digital makes sense. For used pianos with a budget of 5K one has to decide between a grand and vertical but at the same price the vertical will often be a higher quality so one has to choose between higher quality vertical vs wanting a grand.

The most recent discussion was about a used grand selling for $300 and at that price the chances of the piano being decent are extremely low.

I posted about the $350-$500 asking price on that Tokai baby grand. I'm well aware of the recent discussion, particularly things I posted.
While I would agree that most $300-$900 used grand pianos are junkers, there are occasional exceptions. Particularly if the seller doesn't know what the piano is worth, or if they are in a rush to sell. Good thing for the seller they cancelled their auction in time. If someone in the Bay Area had hit "buy it now," they would have been contractually obligated to sell that piano for $500, substantially less than it is worth.

For me, the choice is between:
- no piano
- digital piano
- grand piano

Why my disdain for verticals, so much that I consider them a non-option?

Most uprights I have seen and played had inferior action and sound quality even compared to an entry-level baby grand. That includes well-regarded Yamaha and Kawai models, but not the European makes (haven't gotten to play one of those). The vertical design does not project sound into the room as well as a grand piano of any size. Nicer 52" uprights (new or used) that compare favorably with baby grands also overlap those grands in price range. The grand sounds at least as good and looks better in a room. Versus digitals, upright action is comparable (maybe slightly better) but the digital sounds like a concert grand through good speakers or headphones, and requires less maintenance (no tunings).

That is why I think a used grand is a better option than acoustic verticals unless space is at a very strict premium. A baby grand and bench take up about 40 square feet of floor space (5x5 for piano, 3x5 for bench out while playing). The upright and bench take about 25 (2x5 for piano + 3x5 for bench out while playing). Unless living in a micro-apartment, I think it's worth shuffling stuff around to find that little bit of extra floor space to accommodate a grand.

That's the kind of story I like hearing!
A good piano, just didn't look good due to the abuse of being in a bar or restaurant.