Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
How It All Really Began
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
94 registered members (bennevis, accordeur, brooster, Beemer, 31 invisible), 1,430 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 9 10
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2710157
01/30/18 05:27 PM
01/30/18 05:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
People who have studied learning know one learns faster and more permanently when one is qenuinely interested in the material. If not, most of the hard work will be wasted. There are ways to spike the interest so that one will not be bored even when not immediately engaged, but to just keep going when bored is not efficient. Yes, you may finally learn that way too, but there are ways to learn faster and with more enjoyment.

If one has little interest in looking into things that are "difficult" at first sight it is unlikely that one will get very far in any activity. I find it has been much less disabling to be unable to stand boredom because that forces you to find meanings in things even when not obvious and it is by those meanings that real deep learning happens.

That is why I object the idea that good education means making the kids (or adults) do things they find boring just because it has always been done that way. If studying makes you bored something is not right.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: outo] #2710165
01/30/18 05:44 PM
01/30/18 05:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
Originally Posted by outo

That is why I object the idea that good education means making the kids (or adults) do things they find boring just because it has always been done that way. If studying makes you bored something is not right.

You object to lots of things, including my musical education which made me the musician I am today.

Why not try thinking outside your own very narrow box? You don't even need to think laterally.....

As I've already said, if I only learnt what I wanted to learn as a piano & music student, I'd never have played any Bach or Bartók or anything more contemporary, my technique would be very limited, I'd never be able to sing in a choir because I wouldn't have developed any aural skills worth their salt - in fact, I'd almost certainly have given up piano in my first lesson because my first teacher made me do several things I didn't want to do. And she didn't teach me the only song (Love Story) I wanted to learn.

Seriously, I think you've forgotten how much stuff you did as a school kid which bored you, but which you had to do to pass exams and progress, without which you'd have had no meaningful education and no career.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: bennevis] #2710169
01/30/18 05:58 PM
01/30/18 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo

That is why I object the idea that good education means making the kids (or adults) do things they find boring just because it has always been done that way. If studying makes you bored something is not right.

You object to lots of things, including my musical education which made me the musician I am today.

Why not try thinking outside your own very narrow box? You don't even need to think laterally.....

As I've already said, if I only learnt what I wanted to learn as a piano & music student, I'd never have played any Bach or Bartók or anything more contemporary, my technique would be very limited, I'd never be able to sing in a choir because I wouldn't have developed any aural skills worth their salt - in fact, I'd almost certainly have given up piano in my first lesson because my first teacher made me do several things I didn't want to do. And she didn't teach me the only song (Love Story) I wanted to learn.

Seriously, I think you've forgotten how much stuff you did as a school kid which bored you, but which you had to do to pass exams and progress, without which you'd have had no meaningful education and no career.


I do not object to you, your ways or your musical education at all. Only the way you often present them as the (only) right way. And especially for people who are in a completely different situation.

I actually did not do things that bored me at school. I am a product of very free upbringing smile I became good at learning without having to do all those boring exercises and homework. And I did quite well, got into university after all. What it took was something far from narrow thinking, quite the opposite...

I am applying the same principles to my adult piano learning and I do think the results are quite good so far. But I do not say others need to do things my way to succeed.

Last edited by outo; 01/30/18 06:04 PM.
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: TimR] #2710172
01/30/18 06:03 PM
01/30/18 06:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,250
South Florida
G
Gary D. Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,250
South Florida
Originally Posted by TimR


I'm pretty sure we could figure a way to teach games so that they DID become a painful chore instead of addictive fun.

Yup. wink
Quote

I fear sometimes we've taught music that way.

I have the same fear.
Quote

For sure we teach chemistry and math that way.

I learned to hate chemistry because the teacher who taught it was witch. She really was. I did not discover until years later that I find chemistry absolutely fascinating.

The periodic table is one of the most amazing detective stories in human history.

In spite of boring math teachers I had enough natural interest so that they could not kill it!


Piano Teacher
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: outo] #2710184
01/30/18 06:51 PM
01/30/18 06:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo

That is why I object the idea that good education means making the kids (or adults) do things they find boring just because it has always been done that way. If studying makes you bored something is not right.

You object to lots of things, including my musical education which made me the musician I am today.

Why not try thinking outside your own very narrow box? You don't even need to think laterally.....

As I've already said, if I only learnt what I wanted to learn as a piano & music student, I'd never have played any Bach or Bartók or anything more contemporary, my technique would be very limited, I'd never be able to sing in a choir because I wouldn't have developed any aural skills worth their salt - in fact, I'd almost certainly have given up piano in my first lesson because my first teacher made me do several things I didn't want to do. And she didn't teach me the only song (Love Story) I wanted to learn.

Seriously, I think you've forgotten how much stuff you did as a school kid which bored you, but which you had to do to pass exams and progress, without which you'd have had no meaningful education and no career.


I do not object to you, your ways or your musical education at all. Only the way you often present them as the (only) right way. And especially for people who are in a completely different situation.

I am applying the same principles to my adult piano learning and I do think the results are quite good so far. But I do not say others need to do things my way to succeed.

You used the word "object" in reference to what I did. And you're reading things into my words that I never said with regards to how I learnt piano. I never said that mine was the only right way, just that it was the way I did it. And you immediately jumped in - not for the first time (and this is getting quite tedious) - to "correct" me.

What I did say was that humans - Homo sapiens - would never have survived as a species if we only ever did what we enjoyed doing. There are many people today who only do things they want to do, but they survive only because of 'things' (which I won't elaborate on) which were not in place in most countries until a century ago.

Let me correct you for once - you have a very narrow range in piano and music, you dislike many great composers' music and you never touch them. Because you've always done what you like (or claim so). Which is fine - after all, you aren't making a living from it. Neither am I, but I would personally feel very much poorer if I couldn't do all the things I can now do, precisely because I had to learn how to do them as a kid - I can improvise, compose, harmonize tunes (on the spot), sight-read and sight-sing easily, 'hear' music in my head from reading it like a book, play by ear, and play Bach, Debussy, Bartók and Ginastera (composers whose music I would never have touched, if I had the choice as a student) just as easily as I play Mozart and Chopin and Joplin. In fact, all those 'hated composers' and their music are currently in my performing rep, because over the years, I've learnt to like them - in moderation.

Like a child who learnt to like vegetables, which if given the choice, he'd never have ever touched in the first place. In my job, I see many such children - and even adults - whose parents indulged them when they were young. One such adult eats nothing but white bread and strawberry jam, and has to pop many supplements and disgusting meal replacement stuff to treat, and to stave off malnourishment, and he wished that his parents had been firmer with him at mealtimes when he was a toddler.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: bennevis] #2710194
01/30/18 07:36 PM
01/30/18 07:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo

That is why I object the idea that good education means making the kids (or adults) do things they find boring just because it has always been done that way. If studying makes you bored something is not right.

You object to lots of things, including my musical education which made me the musician I am today.

Why not try thinking outside your own very narrow box? You don't even need to think laterally.....

As I've already said, if I only learnt what I wanted to learn as a piano & music student, I'd never have played any Bach or Bartók or anything more contemporary, my technique would be very limited, I'd never be able to sing in a choir because I wouldn't have developed any aural skills worth their salt - in fact, I'd almost certainly have given up piano in my first lesson because my first teacher made me do several things I didn't want to do. And she didn't teach me the only song (Love Story) I wanted to learn.

Seriously, I think you've forgotten how much stuff you did as a school kid which bored you, but which you had to do to pass exams and progress, without which you'd have had no meaningful education and no career.


I do not object to you, your ways or your musical education at all. Only the way you often present them as the (only) right way. And especially for people who are in a completely different situation.

I am applying the same principles to my adult piano learning and I do think the results are quite good so far. But I do not say others need to do things my way to succeed.

You used the word "object" in reference to what I did. And you're reading things into my words that I never said with regards to how I learnt piano. I never said that mine was the only right way, just that it was the way I did it. And you immediately jumped in - not for the first time (and this is getting quite tedious) - to "correct" me.

What I did say was that humans - Homo sapiens - would never have survived as a species if we only ever did what we enjoyed doing. There are many people today who only do things they want to do, but they survive only because of 'things' (which I won't elaborate on) which were not in place in most countries until a century ago.

Let me correct you for once - you have a very narrow range in piano and music, you dislike many great composers' music and you never touch them. Because you've always done what you like (or claim so). Which is fine - after all, you aren't making a living from it. Neither am I, but I would personally feel very much poorer if I couldn't do all the things I can now do, precisely because I had to learn how to do them as a kid - I can improvise, compose, harmonize tunes (on the spot), sight-read and sight-sing easily, 'hear' music in my head from reading it like a book, play by ear, and play Bach, Debussy, Bartók and Ginastera (composers whose music I would never have touched, if I had the choice as a student) just as easily as I play Mozart and Chopin and Joplin. In fact, all those 'hated composers' and their music are currently in my performing rep, because over the years, I've learnt to like them - in moderation.

Like a child who learnt to like vegetables, which if given the choice, he'd never have ever touched in the first place. In my job, I see many such children - and even adults - whose parents indulged them when they were young. One such adult eats nothing but white bread and strawberry jam, and has to pop many supplements and disgusting meal replacement stuff to treat, and to stave off malnourishment, and he wished that his parents had been firmer with him at mealtimes when he was a toddler.......


Sigh...I guess you just do not see how it is possible to grow into an open minded, responsible and rational adult without firm management by parents and teachers. But I assure you that I did, I take my responsibilities very seriously. And I eat vegetables even if I was never made to smile

Have you not more than once presented a certain kind of musical education (similar to your own) as THE serious way to study and the way to learn classical while it's fine to do other things if one is only doing things for fun (which means not seriously) and when interested in non classical? You often use your adult friend as a model how to succeed as an adult starter quite persistently ignoring any presented examples of other successful paths.

As for my music taste, I guess I naturally gravitate towards composers that many piano students have not even heard of. I find more value for myself to look into those as well as some more well known ones. I have not felt the need to list all those composers or all the music I have studied here, so someone might think I have very limited interests. If you were truly interested to know you could always ask instead of just assuming. I have a huge musical library. And I am pretty certain my knowledge in music history and musicology well exceeds most amateurs because I also read a lot instead of just hacking through scales on the piano.

I just do not understand why do you get so defensive if someone thinks differently than you? Why not present more valid arguments if you disagree instead of making it personal? I did not write about you in my post but kept the discussion on ideas and facts as I see them, could you not do the same?

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: outo] #2710203
01/30/18 08:02 PM
01/30/18 08:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
Originally Posted by outo


I just do not understand why do you get so defensive if someone thinks differently than you? Why not present more valid arguments if you disagree instead of making it personal? I did not write about you in my post but kept the discussion on ideas and facts as I see them, could you not do the same?

Sigh, sigh, sigh......and again, sigh.

Kindly read your own posts. Shall I repost it (as you've obviously forgotten)? OK, here it is:

Originally Posted by outo
So you think that was the ONLY way to get somewhere? Because it's all you know maybe? People find differeny things enjoyable you know, some more usefull than others...
(sic)

....when all I did was to explain how I got to where I am now. I call that a personal attack on me, on stuff I never said, stuff which is a figment of your limited imagination.

Do I ever say anything remotely like that about your frequent postings about your own experiences and 'disabilities' (highly unique to you, BTW) whenever someone mentions a tried-and-tested method they use? tired

As I seem to get under your skin so often (and you persist on "misunderstanding" my posts so often), why not do me a big favour and put me on IGNORE?

After all, you have nothing to learn from my posts about music, and life (as you already know all you need to know about everything). Or you just don't want to learn.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: bennevis] #2710214
01/30/18 08:35 PM
01/30/18 08:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo


I just do not understand why do you get so defensive if someone thinks differently than you? Why not present more valid arguments if you disagree instead of making it personal? I did not write about you in my post but kept the discussion on ideas and facts as I see them, could you not do the same?

Sigh, sigh, sigh......and again, sigh.

Kindly read your own posts. Shall I repost it (as you've obviously forgotten)? OK, here it is:

Originally Posted by outo
So you think that was the ONLY way to get somewhere? Because it's all you know maybe? People find differeny things enjoyable you know, some more usefull than others...
(sic)

....when all I did was to explain how I got to where I am now. I call that a personal attack on me, on stuff I never said, stuff which is a figment of your limited imagination.

Do I ever say anything remotely like that about your frequent postings about your own experiences and 'disabilities' (highly unique to you, BTW) whenever someone mentions a tried-and-tested method they use? tired

As I seem to get under your skin so often (and you persist on "misunderstanding" my posts so often), why not do me a big favour and put me on IGNORE?

After all, you have nothing to learn from my posts about music, and life (as you already know all you need to know about everything). Or you just don't want to learn.


If you look at the quote from my post again do you not see the question marks? What do you think they represent? Did it not occure to you that maybe if you think I misunderstood you, you could have explained yourself more instead of feeling under attack? Do you honestly think I come here to purposedly bully you?

I do not need to ignore posters because I do not have any problem with people having different opinions. That includes you. I do not even mind your post on me and my musical life because how could you know? You do not know much about me anyway. I just thought we could have a more fruitful and interesting discussion by keeping it on a more objective level.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: outo] #2710215
01/30/18 08:43 PM
01/30/18 08:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,618
Originally Posted by outo

If you look at the quote from my post again do you not see the question marks? What do you think they represent? Did it not occure to you that maybe if you think I misunderstood you, you could have explained yourself more instead of feeling under attack? Do you honestly think I come here to purposedly bully you?


Because it's all you know maybe?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: bennevis] #2710216
01/30/18 08:45 PM
01/30/18 08:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by outo

If you look at the quote from my post again do you not see the question marks? What do you think they represent? Did it not occure to you that maybe if you think I misunderstood you, you could have explained yourself more instead of feeling under attack? Do you honestly think I come here to purposedly bully you?


Because it's all you know maybe?

Maybe?

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2710218
01/30/18 08:59 PM
01/30/18 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
O
outo Offline
3000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,742
Finland
Anyway, the topic was whether learning and practicing could be more "fun" rather than a chore and still effective. As it happens I was talking to a young woman today and we both have studied piano. She did the basic exams in music school but quit about 15 years ago. She seemed to regret not having gone further and mostly stopped playing too but said she lost interest because she had so little choice on what to focus on and what pieces to learn. When I talked about my lessons she said it sounds much more motivating to have all the freedom to choose.

Hopefully she may return to piano one day and find a teacher that can keep the interest alive. But one must question whether she could have kept learning if she found a more personal interest on her lessons earlier? Do people quit so much simply because of the work involved or could something be done to make learning more enticing?

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: kevinb] #2710251
01/31/18 12:08 AM
01/31/18 12:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,923
W
Whizbang Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Whizbang  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,923
Originally Posted by kevinb
It felt like I was playing with five pork sausages on each hand.


Yum.


Whizbang [Linked Image]
amateur ragtime pianist
https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschala
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2710279
01/31/18 04:48 AM
01/31/18 04:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,569
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,569
Orange County, CA
Okay, this thread has digressed a bit.

I saw three of my adult students so far this week. None of them practiced. Not even 5 minutes.

I sincerely doubt any of the practice strategies I teach them will be of any use.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: AZNpiano] #2710281
01/31/18 04:59 AM
01/31/18 04:59 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,216
Florida
dogperson Offline
Silver Subscriber
dogperson  Offline
Silver Subscriber
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,216
Florida
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Okay, this thread has digressed a bit.

I saw three of my adult students so far this week. None of them practiced. Not even 5 minutes.

I sincerely doubt any of the practice strategies I teach them will be of any use.


How disheartening! I met an adult pianist, beginning student, that told me she was not really progressing with her teacher and was discouraged, then admitted she did not practice! If we as students do not uphold our end........,


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2710285
01/31/18 05:30 AM
01/31/18 05:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,996
Italy
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014
casinitaly  Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,996
Italy
Two comments:

1. It’s good to see this thread back on track.
PW is almost always a very polite set of forums where members stick to the subjects rather than get into slanging each other. Let’s work at keeping it that way.

2. The more I read from the teachers in this forum , the more I realize how UNtypical most of the adult students I know are!

The adult piano students I know seem to be abnormally dedicated compared to what our teachers here encounter regularly.


[Linked Image]


Currently working on: Chopin Waltz in Amin (post), Chopin Nocturne in Cmin (post)
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: casinitaly] #2710299
01/31/18 07:20 AM
01/31/18 07:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,171
Groove On Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Groove On  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,171
Originally Posted by casinitaly
The adult piano students I know seem to be abnormally dedicated compared to what our teachers here encounter regularly.

That is certainly a good solution, take a blood sample from each prospective student and only accept those with blood type AB Normal. wink


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: AZNpiano] #2710307
01/31/18 08:44 AM
01/31/18 08:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,392
Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bSharp(C)yclist  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,392
Orange County, California
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Okay, this thread has digressed a bit.

I saw three of my adult students so far this week. None of them practiced. Not even 5 minutes.

I sincerely doubt any of the practice strategies I teach them will be of any use.


Wow, tell them I'll practice for them, they just have to pay for it. I'll even drive there. I'm abnormally dedicated wink


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
YouTube | SoundCloud
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2710309
01/31/18 08:48 AM
01/31/18 08:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,867
Northern VA, U.S.
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013
ClsscLib  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,867
Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Okay, this thread has digressed a bit.

I saw three of my adult students so far this week. None of them practiced. Not even 5 minutes.

I sincerely doubt any of the practice strategies I teach them will be of any use.


Wow, tell them I'll practice for them, they just have to pay for it. I'll even drive there. I'm abnormally dedicated wink


Me too. Practicing piano is the high point of my day, every day. And I do practice every day (with very rare exceptions), though I feel I never practice enough (nor as much as I'd like).

Not only youth, but also spare time is wasted on the young. They'll wish they'd banked some of it when they get older!


[Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: AZNpiano] #2710320
01/31/18 09:31 AM
01/31/18 09:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,078
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,078
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Okay, this thread has digressed a bit.

I saw three of my adult students so far this week. None of them practiced. Not even 5 minutes.



Sorry to hear that, it has to be discouraging.

I can't imagine not practicing - haven't skipped a day voluntarily in probably 10 years, although of course some days were productive and others the bare minimum. (I should be a lot better. Well, it's a difficult instrument - yes, we wish it were impossible.!)

Something that might not have been considered is the effect of our peer culture. A lot of our habits are not determined so much by our individual outlook and goals, but by what we've absorbed by those around us. I grew up in a family where both parents were musicians and there was some kind of practice every single day. That was the norm I absorbed. Some of my siblings were not as into music but they did sports and the same was true for them.

I also play in several bands and am on a couple of instrument forums. The members of the forums also become part of the peer group, and in daily discussions of practice, technique, progress, the practice habit is reinforced constantly. Like the commercial goes, "it's what we do."

Contrast that with a lone adult, with no cultural background or family history. They may have an intellectual understanding that practice is important, but it isn't an ingrained part of their character. Former athletes may have an advantage here.


gotta go practice
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: TimR] #2710323
01/31/18 09:44 AM
01/31/18 09:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,965
London, UK
K
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kevinb  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,965
London, UK
Originally Posted by TimR
Contrast that with a lone adult, with no cultural background or family history. They may have an intellectual understanding that practice is important, but it isn't an ingrained part of their character.


Maybe; but surely we all of us have some idea what it takes to become good at anything? I grew up in a non-musical household, but I had many, many opportunities to see how far an absence of practice took me.

But I guess it's possible that there are people who think that musicianship is just a kind of gift, that you either have or don't have. Like your height, or whatever.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: kevinb] #2710328
01/31/18 10:06 AM
01/31/18 10:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,969
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,969
Canada
Originally Posted by kevinb
But I guess it's possible that there are people who think that musicianship is just a kind of gift, that you either have or don't have. Like your height, or whatever.

There are many, many misconceptions. And not every household will teach these things to their kids in terms of anything. I have tutored in various situations, turning things around here and there, and often enough in the student's home. You'd be surprised how many things can go wrong.
The fact of how music is "taught" to adults in many instances by "teachers specializing in adults" in the wrong sense, doesn't help much.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: keystring] #2710350
01/31/18 11:04 AM
01/31/18 11:04 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,216
Florida
dogperson Offline
Silver Subscriber
dogperson  Offline
Silver Subscriber
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,216
Florida
Originally Posted by keystring

....
The fact of how music is "taught" to adults in many instances by "teachers specializing in adults" in the wrong sense, doesn't help much.


I don’t draw the same conclusion that adults in many instances are taught incorrectly. My reference base is certainly the ABF where the members are studying with a teacher but also private teachers/students I know that are not members of this forum


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: kevinb] #2710355
01/31/18 11:12 AM
01/31/18 11:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,078
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,078
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by kevinb
Originally Posted by TimR
Contrast that with a lone adult, with no cultural background or family history. They may have an intellectual understanding that practice is important, but it isn't an ingrained part of their character.


Maybe; but surely we all of us have some idea what it takes to become good at anything? I grew up in a non-musical household, but I had many, many opportunities to see how far an absence of practice took me.


Not many activities can take years of almost imperceptible progress to become accomplished. Music is almost unique in having that learning curve.


gotta go practice
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: TimR] #2710358
01/31/18 11:22 AM
01/31/18 11:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,965
London, UK
K
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kevinb  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,965
London, UK
Originally Posted by TimR
Not many activities can take years of almost imperceptible progress to become accomplished. Music is almost unique in having that learning curve.


Target shooting. Horseriding. Karate. Oil painting. Woodcarving. Golf....

My feeling is that a great many human endeavours require years of imperceptible progress to become accomplished.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: casinitaly] #2710360
01/31/18 11:25 AM
01/31/18 11:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,250
South Florida
G
Gary D. Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,250
South Florida
Originally Posted by casinitaly

2. The more I read from the teachers in this forum , the more I realize how UNtypical most of the adult students I know are!

Adults who take the time to regularly communicate in forums are not going to be typical students.

I don't think members of this forum are typical in any way.


Piano Teacher
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: TimR] #2710362
01/31/18 11:29 AM
01/31/18 11:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,250
South Florida
G
Gary D. Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,250
South Florida
Originally Posted by TimR

Contrast that with a lone adult, with no cultural background or family history. They may have an intellectual understanding that practice is important, but it isn't an ingrained part of their character. Former athletes may have an advantage here.

My most hard working adult is a serious tennis player and understands better than most the importance of playing daily.


Piano Teacher
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: dogperson] #2710394
01/31/18 01:37 PM
01/31/18 01:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,969
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,969
Canada
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by keystring
....The fact of how music is "taught" to adults in many instances by "teachers specializing in adults" in the wrong sense, doesn't help much.


I don’t draw the same conclusion that adults in many instances are taught incorrectly. My reference base is certainly the ABF where the members are studying with a teacher but also private teachers/students I know that are not members of this forum

I did not state that it happened in many instances, and it is also not a conclusion. It is one of the things that can happen and does happen, and a variable to consider. I have definitely observed this variable among some students here, another forum, and a friend I know personally.

What typically happens in this instant is that an adult is rushed ahead without being given enough of the basics, especially the physical basics, because the teacher is fooled by the intellectual knowledge and ability to conceptualize, or belief that adults want to just have fun. Another thing that can happen is when an adult has already mastered another instrument so that things are rushed forward, without the understanding that the physical skills won't be there. For example, the breath control and ear of a trumpeter does not give any physical skills for moving the hands and body in piano. However, the gradual careful training the trumpeter has gone through will make him ready to work the same way for piano.

For young students, the elements that go into that student's success are three: teacher, student, parent. For the adult student there are two elements: the student and the teacher. There is no supportive parent (or interfering parent.)

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2710466
01/31/18 06:35 PM
01/31/18 06:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 176
Virginia
D
DFSRN Offline
Full Member
DFSRN  Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 176
Virginia
I would like to share my article on Prescription for Music Lessons.

https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/article/mental-health

Taking music lessons as an adult is not just for fun, there are health benefits, benefits of music lessons are not for children only. Teachers may address health benefits of music lessons, it is mental fitness. I find practicing relieves stress and is an escape. I practice every day and on the rare occasion I do not get a chance to practice I really miss it. Personally, I would feel bad going to a lesson, and not being prepared on two accounts, first I do not want to waste the teachers time and second I paid for a 2 hour lesson and just wasted that money. If people can watch an hour of TV a night, they can practice the piano instead. It comes to motivation. However, there may be a time in life where due to other demands of career, parents, children, ............. it is not the right time to take lessons.


Deb
"A goal properly set is halfway reached." Zig Ziglar
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2710484
01/31/18 07:55 PM
01/31/18 07:55 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,216
Florida
dogperson Offline
Silver Subscriber
dogperson  Offline
Silver Subscriber
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,216
Florida
Hi Deb
Outstanding article! I do have one comment however about your post: having a lesson where you were unprepared. I do commit to practicing as well, but I have had lessons where I felt like canceling because I did not feel prepared for the lesson, particularly when I’ve been out of town for work for many consecutive days without access to practice at all. I did not cancel the lessons, and they were not a waste of either time or money. We were still able to be very productive. .... and my lessons are one and a half hours weekly


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: dogperson] #2710492
01/31/18 08:28 PM
01/31/18 08:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,000
rocket88 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
rocket88  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,000

I find that a lesson with a student who has not practiced that week can be very productive, as it changes the focus from the path on which we have been traveling to something else, which can be new and refreshing.

This does not apply however to students who rarely or never practice, of course, but to those who are dedicated and working but missed a week.

ps...Deb, thanks for a great article and resource!


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
Page 3 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 9 10

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

New In Our Store!
New In Our Store!
A few of the many new items we've added to our online store.
(PianoSupplies.com is a division of Piano World)
wrap around sunglasses with music notes
Wrap around sun glasses with music notes


88 keys, 10 fingers, no problem
88 Keys, 10 Fingers, No Problem


Bass Clef Hat
Bass Clef Hat

Tons more music related products in our online store!
(ad)
Pianoforall
PianoForAll
New Topics - Multiple Forums
"Pianist Magazine" CD and scores index
by GIJack. 07/22/18 02:20 PM
Antique Bluthner or 15 yr old Petrof?
by molgra. 07/22/18 01:35 PM
What do you call this type of action?
by Lirika. 07/22/18 12:04 PM
Performed for a record producer yesterday
by Rickster. 07/22/18 11:37 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics186,534
Posts2,733,421
Members90,618
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1