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Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: kevinb] #2709143
01/27/18 11:22 AM
01/27/18 11:22 AM
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pianopi Offline

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It definitely works wonders for those two measures.

Yes, I do think if, for just a minute or two, you play really slowly, and expect to move forward just one or two notes at a time, and really take in every articulation, and make sure each physical motion of the hand is ideal i.e relaxed and finding the easiest, most natural way of fingering and reaching the notes. Plus, not moving on until those few notes are mastered (you have to be patient, and expect to repeat many times), it does really work.

It means you are really aware of every move you're making and everything you are reading, and when you bring your piece up to speed (but don't force this), you find yourself in great control, and not just rushing through it, hoping for the best.

Keep your score out, your stool at the ready, and you don't have to spend those 5 minutes adjusting everything. Play something really thoroughly every time you pass the piano. It all adds up. It's like collecting skills (like collecting stamps), every little tiny addition helps.

Last edited by pianopi; 01/27/18 11:23 AM.

"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

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Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709147
01/27/18 11:29 AM
01/27/18 11:29 AM
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pianopi Offline

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The one-time editor of the Guardian did a similar thing, although his available time was 20 minutes a day and not 5, but it is the same idea.

Alan Rusbridger

You have to be really thorough and really mindful.


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: pianopi] #2709152
01/27/18 11:41 AM
01/27/18 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pianopi
It's just about a complete myth that people are too busy to practice.

Just 5 minutes and two measures each day, done thoroughly, slowly and properly - works wonders. Just about anyone can spare 5 minutes between daily (family duties) and going to the computer to complain about how they are just too busy to practice.

The issue isn't time alone - it is discipline and mental energy left (even if one can find 5 minutes) after work + family + chores + need to get rest before doing all that again...

Osho


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Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709157
01/27/18 11:51 AM
01/27/18 11:51 AM
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But playing the piano is wonderful. Little pockets of heaven, those spare 5 minutes. Anyone would think you don't like playing the piano. The mental effort of mindful playing is very relaxing .. isn't it?


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: pianopi] #2709160
01/27/18 11:56 AM
01/27/18 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pianopi
But playing the piano is wonderful. Little pockets of heaven, those spare 5 minutes. Anyone would think you don't like playing the piano. The mental effort of mindful playing is very relaxing .. isn't it?

May I ask if you started learning to play as an adult?

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709188
01/27/18 12:52 PM
01/27/18 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I must have the worst luck with adult students. Most of them are too busy with family to practice, and the single one that does practice has veered so far off the chart, it's beyond hope.


I'd think you're talking about me (part of the "most of them" crowd). Do you feel like you should fire us?

No. They are clearly aware that they are paying me even though they are not practicing. At least the off-topic conversations are nice, and they are pretty intelligent people.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: kevinb] #2709246
01/27/18 03:57 PM
01/27/18 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinb
Originally Posted by pianopi
It's just about a complete myth that people are too busy to practice.

Just 5 minutes and two measures each day, done thoroughly, slowly and properly - works wonders. Just about anyone can spare 5 minutes between daily (family duties) and going to the computer to complain about how they are just too busy to practice.


Is that really true? (The bit about working wonders, I mean). Do you have first-hand experience of how just five minutes of practice can have a significant beneficial effect? It takes me that long to find my music and adjust the piano stool.


It is very true. It works wonders if done correcty.

I teach this to all my students as part of the teaching segment "learning how to practice". So I not only have personal first hand experience in my own learning, but also lots of students who also do.

Five minutes is a long long time. Set a stopwatch and take something that is short and practice it slowly (very slowly and precisely and focused) for 5 minutes. It can seem like an eternity. Which is one reason why many students practice poorly, ie. they spend 5 or 10 seconds or so on a phrase and call it done.

What I do, and teach, is that you can grab a few moments here and there and practice in a way that is very beneficial, perhaps more so than sitting at the bench for an hour.

The key is to take one small thing...a short phrase, a chord change with the left hand, something very small, and practice it very slowly and deliberately for say 10X.

Thats it. Then walk away. Takes maybe literally 1 - 2 minutes.

Such practice is great because you are doing only one thing. No warm-ups, no scales, no arpeggios, no multiple pieces, no already learned repertoire, no new material, no sight-reading practice...nothing but one thing. One thing to focus on, one thing to remember, one thing to digest. One thing rather than dozens of things typical in a practice session.

The brain likes that, and you will find that it supercharges the learning of that section.

I apply this strategy all the time with my students, most of whom do not practice optimally.

For example, when a student brings a piece they are working on that has a problem, we work on the problem area in the studio...slowly, repeatedly. Invariably, that section then becomes one of the best, if not the best, sections in the piece.

Benefits:

* Partially solves the "no time to practice" problem.

* Super-practices a problem area.

ps...this does not eliminate regular practice sessions...instead it is a strategy to make use of time, a few moments here and there, and to fix problems quickly. YMMV



Piano teacher.
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: rocket88] #2709250
01/27/18 04:11 PM
01/27/18 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
The key is to take one small thing...a short phrase, a chord change with the left hand, something very small, and practice it very slowly and deliberately for say 10X.

Thats it. Then walk away. Takes maybe literally 2 minutes.

Such practice is great because you are doing only one thing. No warm-ups, no multiple pieces, nothing but one thing. One thing to remember, to digest.

The brain likes that, and you will find that it supercharges the learning of that section. ... Invariably, that section becomes one of the best, if not the best, sections in the piece.

Exactly! And, in addition, slow - really slow - practice of just a few notes at a time helps you to play the notes as comfortably as you can because you're not rushing; you're not tense. The notes, thus, feel really good to play and, as a direct benefit, sound really good. And because they are so pleasurable to play, practicing becomes addictive, and those 5 minutes turn easily into hours of very good practice time.


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: outo] #2709251
01/27/18 04:12 PM
01/27/18 04:12 PM
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pianopi Offline

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Originally Posted by outo
May I ask if you started learning to play as an adult?

I started as a child - 10yrs - and played until around age 16. Stopped for some years and took it up again as an adult.


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709253
01/27/18 04:18 PM
01/27/18 04:18 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,795
Florida
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When I first started taking piano lessons again as an adult. I had no idea how to practice as it had not been discussed during my childhood lessons. So consequently, I tried to practice hours a day: hours I did not have in a very long workday. I would come to my next lesson and sound like I had not practiced at all. Very discouraging. So I started reading about focused practice and implemented as much as I could.

I now practice on borrowed time: waiting for something to warm up in the oven, Five minutes while I’m waiting for the laundry to finish washing so I can put it in the dryer. I do focused practice for a few minutes. I flag the measures that need concentrated practice, and work on those. When they are no longer on the problem list, I remove the flag. Works wonders for me.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: dogperson] #2709254
01/27/18 04:20 PM
01/27/18 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
When I first started taking piano lessons again as an adult. I had no idea how to practice as it had not been discussed during my childhood lessons. So consequently, I tried to practice hours a day: hours I did not have in a very long workday. I would come to my next lesson and sound like I had not practiced at all. Very discouraging. So I started reading about focused practice and implemented as much as I could.

I now practice on borrowed time: waiting for something to warm up in the oven, Five minutes while I’m waiting for the laundry to finish washing so I can put it in the dryer. I do focused practice for a few minutes. I flag the measures that need concentrated practice, and work on those. When they are no longer on the problem list, I remove the flag. Works wonders for me.


Thats how I discovered this strategy, waiting for my son to get ready to take him to school.

It was 5 minutes here, next day 3, next day 4, etc....at the end of the week it was 15-20 minutes of high-voltage practicing...all "lost" time that was now found, that really stepped up my playing.


Piano teacher.
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709341
01/27/18 10:56 PM
01/27/18 10:56 PM
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Thanks, dogperson and rocket88 and pianopi for the discussion above.

I practice small sections--but only when I have an hour or more block of time. That's fine, but I'm curious if working on one section in one sitting--maybe 10 or 15 minutes will provide more attention and better memory for that work. Isolating musical tasks, by using random bits of time during the day, not only adds to practice time but gives more focus and clarity?


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Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: gingko2] #2709352
01/28/18 12:07 AM
01/28/18 12:07 AM
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Florida
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Originally Posted by gingko2
Thanks, dogperson and rocket88 and pianopi for the discussion above.

I practice small sections--but only when I have an hour or more block of time. That's fine, but I'm curious if working on one section in one sitting--maybe 10 or 15 minutes will provide more attention and better memory for that work. Isolating musical tasks, by using random bits of time during the day, not only adds to practice time but gives more focus and clarity?


Ginkgo,
It does provides focus to my practice time. Knowing that I only have a few minutes required me to only work on specific problems, Rather than starting from the beginning and playing until I reach a snag. My progress has been quicker, and it is highly motivating to be able to remove
a flag from something that was a problem. Give it a try. If I have more than 5 to 10 minutes of time, I follow the same process, but I am able to work on more of the small sections. Before, when I was looking for a larger block of time, I often felt like I was either too tired, or that I did not have the time available. When I started looking for only five minutes, those barriers went away


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: pianopi] #2709362
01/28/18 01:40 AM
01/28/18 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pianopi
Originally Posted by outo
May I ask if you started learning to play as an adult?

I started as a child - 10yrs - and played until around age 16. Stopped for some years and took it up again as an adult.


The reason I asked is because I am not quite sure everyone can fully understand the difference between getting through the very first stages of learning piano as an adult with full responsibilities compared to a child or even a teenager. In fact piano teachers generally do not have personal experience of this because practically all were past those stages when entering adulthood. This of course does not mean some cannot teach adults well.

Rusbridger is not an adult starter either but already had the basic piano skills before starting his project.

A lot depends on things such as what kind of day job and family circumstances one has. Also some adult beginners have already forgotten how to study anything because it can be 30 years since they went to school. Piano playing is wonderful, yes, but you don't really feel that wonderful trying to prepare for a weekly lesson with only 5 minutes here and there to spare especially if already mentally exhausted. It can also take some time just to get the brain into the "music mode" if your other activities require something totally different. With just 5 min a day progress in the beginning would be painfully slow if there's any. That can lead to frustration and quitting.

Later when one already has some skills (both music and practice skills) it is easier to take full advantage of very short sessions as well. Even if the pieces may take longer to learn I feel I actually can progress with less practice now than in the first few years.

What worked for me when things got impossible after getting a very demanding job was to devote half an hour every morning mo-fri to piano, even if it meant learning to get up earlier than what I was used to. I do not think I could have survived lessons any other way those years.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: outo] #2709380
01/28/18 03:36 AM
01/28/18 03:36 AM
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Gary D. Online content
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Originally Posted by outo
In fact piano teachers generally do not have personal experience of this because practically all were past those stages when entering adulthood. This of course does not mean some cannot teach adults well.

Let me underscore this point.

It is HARD to find regular time for anything, as an adult. My two best adult students are often gone because of trips, crazy last minute responsibilities at work, family emergencies.

It is VITAL for adults to learn to use time wisely, because they simply do not have as much of it.


Piano Teacher
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: dogperson] #2709424
01/28/18 09:51 AM
01/28/18 09:51 AM
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When I was a kid I'd practice for hours but with no direction or purpose. I remember my teachers would just send me home with pieces I never heard and tell me to "work on them." I thought if I just played a line 50, 100, 200 times that it would eventually come out right. Then at my lessons we'd go over my errors.......

Looking back it doesn't make much sense. I had terrible issues with tension--aching forearms and ganglion cysts. I remember a judge at our yearly test/recital writing that my weakness was "technique." At least I learned to read music.

As a kid I was way too obedient. As an adult I've learned from experience how to learn.


Originally Posted by dogperson
Ginkgo,
It does provides focus to my practice time. Knowing that I only have a few minutes required me to only work on specific problems, Rather than starting from the beginning and playing until I reach a snag. My progress has been quicker, and it is highly motivating to be able to remove
a flag from something that was a problem. Give it a try. If I have more than 5 to 10 minutes of time, I follow the same process, but I am able to work on more of the small sections. Before, when I was looking for a larger block of time, I often felt like I was either too tired, or that I did not have the time available. When I started looking for only five minutes, those barriers went away


I'll try it. I like your suggestion on the flags, thanks!


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Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709435
01/28/18 10:36 AM
01/28/18 10:36 AM
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Sometimes I have time but haven't any brain.


Enough is as good as a feast.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709447
01/28/18 11:24 AM
01/28/18 11:24 AM
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As an adult learner myself, we all juggle responsibilities during the day. On the other hand we all need balance in our lives to engage in our hobbies once in a while.

If a teacher feel there is no progress, he/she wouldn't continue teaching a student. A child learning to play piano is different than adults mainly because adults have many years of knowledge & experience. We have a road map where to go and how to get there. A 5 year-old child just learned his ABCs usually doesn't know a thing about piano except being an instrument with B & W keys. We know a few composer names like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, etc. A young child learn to play mainly by imitating adults & reading music (following along with the fingerings) and usually has no clue the piece he/she is playing has the name Beethoven at the upper-right corner of a page. A lot of times a teacher demonstrates playing should be done in a certain way an adult can figure out the reason but a child just imitates.

Adults tend to follow instructions more easily. A teacher may have to repeat the same things to a child a few times before he/she gets it.

Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709453
01/28/18 11:31 AM
01/28/18 11:31 AM
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A good teacher will show even a complete beginner student how to practice and clearly outline what to practice. (So will lots of people on this forum, and lots of people on youtube etc.)

For a beginner with so many new things to learn, each thing is, and probably should be, a five minute training session. Such as:

- learning to sit correctly at the piano
- learning to press keys without the fingers tensing and pointing to the ceiling
- finding and leaping from c to c to c, or b to b to b etc.
- learning to read the new notes
... etc.

These are all best learned, I think, in shorts bursts - because the new student is also training him/herself to practice as well, and get mentally fit at practicing.

Many students who complain about not having enough time tend to treat their lessons as trips to the hairdresser: pay a certain amount, turn yourself over to the expert, and come away somewhat improved. Those students have a grand morning/afternoon out, a nice chat, receive a few compliments, get something played for them, and all in all feel it is well worth the money spent.

Practicing at home is not quite as easily entertaining.

I am not saying 5 minutes a day is an ideal length of practice time. But it is a happy improvement over not practicing at all.

Doing the activity you are avoiding is the best way of getting over not being in the mood for it.

See practicing like brushing your teeth. Mostly a chore, but it has to be done daily, and you feel tons better for doing it.


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Adult vs Child Students [Re: 8 Octaves] #2709455
01/28/18 11:49 AM
01/28/18 11:49 AM
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Practice while waiting for something to cook, I do that! And I am fully convinced that it makes a difference!

Of course, I could use the same time to e.g. clean the kitchen counter or an other small task.

And having a DP, I can just play in the middle of the night when waking up for no reason. I have actually cracked some difficult (for me) phrases at three in the morning.


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
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