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Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
#2705543 01/16/18 07:28 PM
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Hey guys! I am very new to the digital piano world as I've always been a classical pianist playing acoustic pianos.
I have been considering to buy the Yamaha Avant Grand N1 for daily practice, as its action is probably the most similar to a real grand piano. But the tone of N1 really sounds a bit too much like synthesizers...

I've recently come across videos of people using Garritan CFX VST for their recording and it sounds really realistic to me. But given that the file size of it is soooo huge (130GB) and it can cause latency, is it possible to use it for daily practice?? If yes, do I need to buy a computer with extremely large SSD and RAM to eliminate the latency?

And would the VST make my Yamaha N1 less sensitive? (e.g. less sensitie towards different types of pedalling, articulation, timbre-production, etc.)

If it's not feasible, would you guys suggest any better alternative? (priority: grand piano action)

It would be WONDERFUL to hear from you guys! Thank you!

Last edited by kiwibd; 01/16/18 07:51 PM.
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Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705550 01/16/18 08:14 PM
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Will you use headphones, built in speakers, external monitors?

Since Garritan CFX is relatively cheap, I would recommend buying that and playing it with a digital piano and your current computer to see if you like using that. PianoTeq also has a free trial. You might find the VIs to be great or greatly distracting.

It took a bit of effort for me to get computer latency really low. A decent desktop computer will be better than a laptop. A good interface might help reduce latency and jitter if you feel that is necessary. Throwing money at this to get better computer performance won't work; it just takes a bit of time.

Garritan CFX "pianos" are closer to 40GB (x3 ~ 130GB total). I run this on a mid-tier laptop with a 250GB Samsung SSD (old SATA not new nvme and not huge). I tried a very fast Samsung nvme SSD 961 and that did not improve performance; nor did a higher performing laptop. Perhaps running 64GB of ram might optimize performance but that is uber-expensive and should not matter as the samples should be efficiently cached. I think good ASIO drivers are most important.

BTW - Philip Johnston has some great videos with the Yamaha Avant Grand & Garritan CFX. He has some posts here and I think he plays using the built in Yamaha sounds but subsequently uses the midi files to recreate the soundtrack in Garritan CFX. Search his posts for more details as I may have it wrong.

Last edited by newer player; 01/16/18 08:19 PM.
Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705614 01/17/18 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwibd
Hey guys! I am very new to the digital piano world as I've always been a classical pianist playing acoustic pianos.
I have been considering to buy the Yamaha Avant Grand N1 for daily practice, as its action is probably the most similar to a real grand piano. But the tone of N1 really sounds a bit too much like synthesizers...

I've recently come across videos of people using Garritan CFX VST for their recording and it sounds really realistic to me. But given that the file size of it is soooo huge (130GB) and it can cause latency, is it possible to use it for daily practice?? If yes, do I need to buy a computer with extremely large SSD and RAM to eliminate the latency?

And would the VST make my Yamaha N1 less sensitive? (e.g. less sensitie towards different types of pedalling, articulation, timbre-production, etc.)

If it's not feasible, would you guys suggest any better alternative? (priority: grand piano action)

It would be WONDERFUL to hear from you guys! Thank you!


I routinely use Garritan CFX for practice and it works great. You do not need a particularly huge SSD or large RAM. I am using 256GB SSD and most computers with 8GB RAM or so will suffice. Most laptops from last 2/3 years should work just. Quite likely, you may not even need an external USB sound interface - the built in sound card using ASIO4ALL drive might be sufficient to get very low latency. If the internal sound card does not work well, you can always get a reasonably cheap USB interface with good ASIO drivers - and you will be all set with the latency.

As "newer player" said, you need to first determine if you plan to use headphone, internal speaker or powered monitors. Internal speakers are ideal as there is nothing external taking more space etc. but internal speakers may not sound as well as external speakers - especially with VSTs.

Also, for AvantGrand, I hear reports in this forum that there is a 'noise gate' issue with N1/N2/N3 that makes pp/ppp nearly impossible with internal speakers - do a research in this forum. I hear the new N3X has an option to turn the noise gate off - so presumably the upcoming N1X/N2X (expected to be announced at NAAM 2018 in couple of weeks) have also resolved this issue.

Re: whether the VST will make Yamaha N1 less sensitive - I doubt it. For me, with Kawai CA-67 + Garritan CFX - I do not see any loss in sensitivity etc.

Regarding 'better' alternatives: look at Kawai Novus NV10 as well + N1X - both are expected to be announced at NAAM 2018 soon.

Good luck -
Osho

Last edited by Osho; 01/17/18 02:58 AM.

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Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705626 01/17/18 03:58 AM
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Hi there!

For me, I have Garritan CFX lite and I can tell you, it does need a good computer, though probably doesn't need the top of the line. I'm just using a mid-range laptop with an i5, 8gb of ram and just a standard 5400 rpm HD and the audio does sometimes drop out but that's about 5% of the time. I'm using ASIO drivers also at 64 kbs latency. If you're looking to use the full version of Garritan CFX with all the mics turned on, then it's best to have a more powerful computer with at least 7200 rpm or SSD.

As for the piano action, this topic has been discussed a lot in the forums and if you're aiming for a true "grand action", I do believe the Yamaha N1 is more of an upright action. I don't know how much the N1 goes for but last that I heard it's over $5,000 and for this price, I think investing in a used piano would probably be a better option. Again, depends on your priority.

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705628 01/17/18 04:13 AM
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Michael, it is the NU1 that is upright. N1, 2, 3 are all the same (baby) grand action.
I use the CFX lite on a 4-year old i3 desktop, which is entry-mid range. I do have an ssd, but I'm very certain it would work from the HDD just as well, especially if you increase the ram buffer size to the max (more of the samples are loaded into the ram at the beginning). An external interface and I'm using it at 64 buffer with very low latency. I'm pleased with the results.
The playing is real-time, with imperceptible latency, and sounds significantly better than any standalone DP I have ever tried, and plays just as well as the best, which leave nothing to be wanted in the playing department.

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
mcoll #2705641 01/17/18 05:17 AM
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First of all, thanks for everyone's reply! It seems like the most important thing is to get a better external audio interface+ASIO driver to minimize the latency. Is there any ASIO driver and external audio interface you guys would reccommend?

Originally Posted by mcoll

An external interface and I'm using it at 64 buffer with very low latency. I'm pleased with the results.


What do you mean by "external interface"? Do you mean external audio interface? what's 64 buffer? Sorry for asking in specific as I really don't know much about computer. Would appreciate it if someone can send a link of an "PC audio interface 101 guide" smirk I've been researching on the internet about this but still very confused

Last edited by kiwibd; 01/17/18 05:51 AM.
Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705652 01/17/18 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwibd

What do you mean by "external interface"? Do you mean external RAM or an external ASIO driver? what's 64 buffer? (Does it mean 64GB RAM?) Sorry for asking in specific as I really don't know much about computer. Would appreciate it if someone can send a link of an "PC audio interface 101 guide" smirk I've been researching on the internet about this but still very confused


Hello kiwbd!

External interface is literally a small box containing digital to audio (and sometimes midi to usb interfaces) and some other useful features such as microphone pre amps and pro audio quality connectors. They have their own drivers which should be more effective and reliable than generic ones. Latency will be minimised.

RAM is active computer memory and tends to be about 4 or 8 gigabytes on a reasonably up to date midrange laptop. This is enough to run a VSTi instrument such as CFX. Multi-tracking or layering instruments may require more.

ASIO drivers were invented to speed up audio streaming, bypassing other computer processes, because Windows PC in particular were so poor with latency. There is a free ASIO 4all, which works well with most sound cards and interfaces. However, if you have a sound card or interface specifically designed for playing and recording music, it will have its own dedicated ASIO which will be better.

64 buffer is the number of samples which are held in a kind of tank so that they will be streamed out at an absolutely smooth rate. The smaller the buffer, the less latency (time lag) you will have. 64 is very low (good). Typical buffers are 64, 128, 256 and 512. All of those MAY be satisfactory depending on other things (like sampling rate - 44k, 96k etc). But 64 is the quickest. Your system may start making errors at that rate (cracking or popping sounds when you play) in which case you raise the number in the sample buffer.

Good interfaces for this purpose cost from around 100 dollars up to thousands for professional ones. Steinberg, Focusrite, RME, Presonus, M Audio and Tascam, among many others are reputable manufacturers of audio interfaces. Most of them use USB to link up to the computer and will have headphone and various speaker outputs to link to audio equipment.

There are lots of online rankings for interfaces like this https://musicauthority.org/audio/best-audio-interface/
But you might not need one if your computer has decent sound card and you install ASIO4ALL. If you've got a Mac, you may be fine using its native soundsystem.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705657 01/17/18 06:32 AM
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I'll try to answer briefly.
For piano playing you want instant output, which the normal drivers don't provide and this is where the ASIO drivers come it.
Asio4all is a generic ASIO driver which should work with any audio interface and you can use it with the internal sound cars for low latency audio.
Also, there are external audio interfaces (also called DAC s) which are made for studio use and come with their own ASIO drivers. Some popular affordable examples are Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 2nd gen, Steinberg Ur22 mkii, then, a little more expensive is Zoom Uac-2 etc. All these have their own ASIO drivers and provide very low latency.
At first, the get an idea you can use Asio4all on your own pc, configure it and see if the latency is low enough. Also, an external interface might be more useful if you plan to output the sound to studio monitors because you'll have low noise balanced outputs on most studio audio interfaces.

The buffer size is a parameter of the ASIO driver which sets the amount of time for the audio processing. The smaller the buffer size, the lower the latency, but the more strain will be put on the CPU. If set too small, audio dropouts and noises will be heard. If set too high, the latency will be perceptible. A 64 buffer gives great results as far as I'm concerned, but even 128 is manageable.

8gb of ram is more than enough for the cfx lite. A 7200rpm HDD is preferable, or an ssd, but with certain settings it might run well even on a 5400rpm HDD. I'm not sure since I haven't tried. Pianoteq is much les demanding on resources, only requiring a decent CPU (mine is already more than enough for it). Some people prefer sampled vsts (such as garritan cfx, ravenscroft etc), others find Pianoteq to be better. Tastes vary. I use both.

You can read a lot on the subject, but you'll form your own preference with time. Conclusion - a midrange laptop, or an entry-mid desktop nowadays will handle well enough CFX lite or Pianoteq. Optionally add an audio interface. If you have acces to a digital piano, you can download a demo of Pianoteq to experiment more. Using an ASIO driver is mandatory if we're talking about PCs. For Macs, they already have a low latency driver.

Have fun researching and then experimenting!

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705659 01/17/18 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwibd
I have been considering to buy the Yamaha Avant Grand N1 for daily practice, as its action is probably the most similar to a real grand piano. But the tone of N1 really sounds a bit too much like synthesizers...


Have you actually played an Avant Grand and made your own judgement about the action and sounds?

Many (including me) would agree that you are right about the action but if you are purely judging the N1 from online demos and YouTube videos I would reserve judgement until you have really got to know the internal voices. It's true they certainly would be outclassed by a software piano but if all you want is an effective practice tool the N1's sounds may be quite good enough. And the connection between action and sounds is good, as it often tends to be with one box hardware pianos.

Getting into software means a life of clutter, wires, tweaking and boot-up times - all of which have a degree of discouraging effect on the very reason behind it all, i.e, to play the piano!


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Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705662 01/17/18 07:24 AM
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Actually that's a very good point, EssBrace. I'd add to that to also try the Kawai novus nv 10 and maybe be on the lookout for new releases, as n1x is supposed to be released soon.
At least as far as speaker sound goes, it may prove difficult to beat the internal sounds of these instruments with the usage of vsts. For headphone usage, that may vary.

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705665 01/17/18 07:36 AM
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I've solved the problem with cables, clutter, boot-up time, etc. by dedicating an old laptop to CFX. It's hidden, always on and connected all the time. I use it for headphone playing, the ES7 is also always on, so I only need to put my headphones. If I need to play with speakers, I then move the volume slider of the ES7 and use the Kawai piano sound. I am currently considering small monitors like the famous JBL LSR 305 to switch entirely to a CFX based setup but I'll probably wait to see if there will be a VPC2, or ES9 with Pianist mode, etc. But my point is CFX works with old laptops too and one can easily test some old machine that would otherwise be tossed and dedicate it to an always on solution.


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Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
mcoll #2705666 01/17/18 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Actually that's a very good point, EssBrace. I'd add to that to also try the Kawai novus nv 10 and maybe be on the lookout for new releases, as n1x is supposed to be released soon.
At least as far as speaker sound goes, it may prove difficult to beat the internal sounds of these instruments with the usage of vsts. For headphone usage, that may vary.


Yes indeed. If there's no hurry the Kawai and the (presumably imminently to be released) AG N1X should definitely be considered. It appears likely the action in the Kawai will be longer than the Yamaha and that *may* provide an enhanced sense of control. I also think the Kawai sound engine will be very good....quite possibly good enough to render the advantages of software smaller than the hassle software represents.

Most people seem to really like the Garritan CFX tonally. An arguably more dynamic and expressive (but in my opinion less realistic sounding) option is of course PianoTeq. Both options as you say could certainly be enjoyable through headphones but I think the AG (or Kawai) strike back with the innately good (better?) three-way marriage of action, sound engine and onboard amplification/speakers.


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Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705696 01/17/18 10:07 AM
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I’d be happy with a GranTouch DGT7, a Mac Mini, and Pianoteq.
I would mount the Mini under the piano, tape all the cables to the bottom of the piano (under), keep Pianoteq open and the computer on all the time. This eliminates the need for constant booting, and keeps all the electronics hidden from view. The problem is finding a DGT7 at a reasonable price, or for that matter, finding one at all.
The smaller DGT2 usually pops up on Ebay/Craigslist, but I’m not very fond of the mini-grand cabinet, nor the upright-like fall board (slightly tilted).

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
EssBrace #2705705 01/17/18 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Most people seem to really like the Garritan CFX tonally. An arguably more dynamic and expressive (but in my opinion less realistic sounding) option is of course PianoTeq. Both options as you say could certainly be enjoyable through headphones but I think the AG (or Kawai) strike back with the innately good (better?) three-way marriage of action, sound engine and onboard amplification/speakers.

I’m in agreement with Steve here. I own the N1 and can attest to it being a fantastic piano for practice, at any level of playing. The sound through headphones is a bit lacking, but through the fantastic built in speaker system, does sound quite nice. I’m exploring the possibility of using VSTs with my N1as well, but frankly would like to sit down, push the power on, and play, without having to worry about buying even more stuff to get a little bit better sound at the cost of latency. I think you need to explore the N1 in person first, and be on the lookout for the N1X and NV10 or a cheaper N2, though the N2 would not have the new CFX sample.


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Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705833 01/17/18 06:45 PM
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Thanks mcoll and Toddy for the wonderful, detailed reply about the technical stuff!! I am very touched by your responses and it has helped me, as a complete beginner, understand a lot!

I have played on a real N1 before and I love the sound from its internal loudspeakers but the reason why I am buying an N1 is because I'm afraid of being complained by my neighbor so I will probably be using headphones all the time. And that's why I am considering Garritan CFX as the headphone sound from N1 isn't really that good.

And thanks for suggesting the NV10 and N1X. Will surely check them out! But I guess I will still get an N1 (because of tight budget). Hopefully its price will drop fruther when the new models are out!!! laugh Will also look for second-handed N1 (if there is any)

Last edited by kiwibd; 01/17/18 06:46 PM.
Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705913 01/18/18 02:59 AM
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Most welcome! Only now I have seen toddy's post, as I started writing the reply before he posted. Had I known, I would've left the pros to answer, his post was significantly clearer smile
Yes, going for a discounted or used n1 may be a good idea and give you a great action to drive any vst. Food for thought smile

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2705931 01/18/18 04:22 AM
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I’m looking to sell my N1 due to lots of moving for career over next few years, so feel free to PM me kiwibd if interested in a second hand unit.


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Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
PianoZac #2706182 01/18/18 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoZac
I’m looking to sell my N1 due to lots of moving for career over next few years, so feel free to PM me kiwibd if interested in a second hand unit.


Thanks for the offer PianoZac! I would love to take your offer but I live in Berlin, Germany :P

Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2706506 01/19/18 01:10 PM
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btw would there be any differences to play the Garritan CFX VST on a N1 compared to N2/N3, If I'm only playing with a headphone? Should I also consider N2/N3 in my case? Thank you!

Last edited by kiwibd; 01/19/18 01:11 PM.
Re: Garritan CFX + Avant Grand N1 for practice?
kiwibd #2706515 01/19/18 01:46 PM
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A few differences that I've noticed (mostly minor):

1. The n2 and n3 have TRS, which vibrates the keyboard (and pedals?) as you play. After trying it I felt a bit ambivalent towards the feature. You can also turn it off.

2. The n2 and n3 have a different (ivory-like) white key finish.

3. The pedal feel is different (higher resistance, more grand-like?) on the n2 and n3.

I've seen enough variety on acoustics and digitals between 2 and 3 that I don't view them as advantages per se, it's just what you prefer.


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