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#2702337 - 01/05/18 10:26 AM Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert  
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Audiolinear Offline
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Hi

Has anybody any experience on the models 214 VC and 280 VC ? Since they are new Bösendorfer models comment are difficult to find on internet .
I tried one 214 VC which seems comparable to Steinway B and Yamaha cf6 or S6 ( Bösendorfer sounds even better) for sure a very good piano. Price is comparable too !

Thanks for any information

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#2702413 - 01/05/18 03:41 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Rich Galassini Online content
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Hello Audiolinear and welcome to PianoWorld.

There are now several Universities on the East Coast who have chosen the 280 VC as a concert instrument. The 214 VC has yet to be fully distributed, but that is a particularly gorgeous piano as well.

It sounds from your post that you have already played them and you enjoy them. Do you have questions that we can answer for you?


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Check out the Science Channel's "How Its Made" featuring our piano restoration:
http://www.cunninghampiano.com/how-its-made/
#2702417 - 01/05/18 03:46 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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A few years back Bösendorfer wanted to produce a concert grand that didn't have 97 keys like their Imperial Grand. It has been successful. I got to play one in Vienna and it was very good indeed. There is a full description on their web site.

All the best / Steve


Bösendorfer 170
#2702817 - 01/07/18 07:55 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Skjalg Online content
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The Bösendorfer 214 VC has an exellent sound. The soft notes are like whisper and with full power you have as much dynamic range as can be had from an instrument this size. However, it is not an instrument for everyone. I have tried it a few times, and it is like driving a race car. If you don't have the skills, you will run out of the race track at the first turn, and possibly before. It was showing my lack of skilles to a disappointing degree, more so than anything else I have played.
I also heard it played by a professional pianist, and in that case I was in awe, more so than the same person playing other instruemnts in the same shop.

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#2702823 - 01/07/18 09:00 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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Hi skjalg
I had the same feeling with respect to this instrument like driving a race car without the proper driver licence. It looks very professional indeed but after a short time it is possible to adapt to enjoy the music even for an amateur like me and this is probably a good instrument to improve .

However the price is high even in Europe, so I am still investigating the competition like Steinway B , yamaha 212 or Bechstein ....more or less at the same price by the way but maybe with more opportunities on the second market since they are older models.

#2702830 - 01/07/18 09:51 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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There are quite a few options out there. In the 210-220 length of pianos I think the most interesting I have tried was a Steingraeber C 212. It surpised me with such a rich sound palette. The texture on the keys was also excellent. The closest to ivory that I have tried, altough different.
C. Bechstein I also found to be a favourite of mine. The action was very even and it felt very controlled. The Steingraeber was a bit more of an untamed beast, but with slow pieces with lots of feeling it did not give me any trouble.
A little bit down the price-ladder I think the Schimmel Konzert 219 was excellent, with a beautiful sustain and an awsome sturdy look. I also enjoyed the Sauter, but I have only tried the Sauter Delta, and not the Omega, so I could not compare them.
The Steinway Hamburg was not my cup of tea, but I would have a hard time to quantify why.
I have tried a restored Blüthner 220, very nice, but do not remember that much about it, so I guess I was not blown away.

Yamaha is coming with the S6X (212) now in January at a shop near me, so that will be exciting. Shigeru Kawai should also be tried. It is excellent to play, but I have only tried Sk3 and Sk7, not the Sk6.

Last edited by Skjalg; 01/07/18 09:56 AM.
#2702851 - 01/07/18 10:49 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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I tried out the 280 VC a few months ago and the first thing I noticed was how good the action was. It was extremely even, very friendly to play and capable of expressing delicate nuances. If you're a sensitive pianist, you would feel at home on this piano. This definitely is not a monotone piano! The other thing that stood out was the bass. The bass notes are very pure sounding with an emphasis on the fundamental.

#2702972 - 01/07/18 06:19 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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I had the opportunity two weeks ago to try a 214 VC and a yamaha CF6 which were side by side but for a short time so I cannot pretend having compared the two pianos.
As far as sound they were very close with maybe a richer tone from the Bösen. I prefered the yamaha action feeling in comparison but I could live with each of them. In any case the tiny difference may be only a matter of tunning.

#2703071 - 01/08/18 03:04 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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SwissMS Online content
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I purchased a Bosendorfer 214VC last May, and I absolutely love it. It has such a lovely tone, that I fall in love with it each time I play it. I tried out several Bosies at the factory in Vienna, and I was struck by how much difference there was between pianos of the same make and model. I played four 214VC's each set up for a different purpose. The biggest difference was which hammers were installed. My piano has Renner hammers, and has a more mellow voice and a fantastic dynamic range, especially on the pianissimo end. It has a wonderful evenness across all registers. It works very well in a large living room, and is easy to play. Another, with Abel hammers, was targeted to the concert hall, and was quite loud and boomy. It still had the range and the beautiful sound, but I could not get the whispering pianissimo out of it. Perhaps this is the "race car" described above.

After owning the piano for a while, I have come to appreciate it more and more. It holds tune very well, has not developed any "breaking in" issues that my previous pianos had, and makes me happy every time I play it!

#2703075 - 01/08/18 03:24 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: SwissMS]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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Thank you SwissMS for the information on the two types of hammers and your message. I did listen to your beautiful music posted on internet. The piano sounds gorgeous even in mp3.
Actually the piano I tested against the yamaha was dedicated to concert halls. This is probably why it sounded a bit louder.

#2703086 - 01/08/18 04:33 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Quote
It still had the range and the beautiful sound, but I could not get the whispering pianissimo out of it. Perhaps this is the "race car" described above.


It was not any problem to get whispering pianissimo out of the piano. In fact, that was superb. What I had a difficulty with was to go from say ppp -> pp. I created too much velocity, so it became stronger than intended. I am sure that I could adapt, I am just not sure how long it would take me. What I tried to convey was that I had a difficulty to play well on this piano. It felt nervous (like a "race car"). The sound when others played, however, was marvellous. For those with better control, it must be a wonderful piano.

I believe there were Renner action in the one I played. I, by the way, always considered Abel hammers to be the softer.

Last edited by Skjalg; 01/08/18 04:38 AM.
#2703352 - 01/09/18 02:21 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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SwissMS
Since you had the opportunity to try several 214 VC , is there any other difference besides the hammers ? If the difference is the voicing , for example , most 214 could be tuned for a specific use.
I suppose that another main difference from one piano to another comes from the wood itself.

Also have you got any chance to try Steinway since the sound of the 214 VC seems comparable?

#2703399 - 01/09/18 08:31 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Before I purchased my piano, I tried several different pianos, including Steinways of a similar size. I think it all comes down to personal taste. I preferred the Bosendorfer sound, and found it to have more color and richness than comparable Steinways. Of course, that is just to my ear.

All four of the 214VC's that I tried had slightly different sounds. At the factory they said the sound depended not only on the wood, but also which tech set up the piano. I fell in love with mine at first touch, but the one next to it seemed to have less clarity to my ear. Granted, these were very slight differences. The one in their downtown store was the one with the Abel hammers, and it was much louder, and for me less nuanced. Going to the Bosendorfer factory was quite an experience. They actually had three 200's set up for me, but I played everything in their showroom. Once I tried the 214VC there was no going back!

#2703400 - 01/09/18 08:36 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: SwissMS]  
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Originally Posted by SwissMS
I purchased a Bosendorfer 214VC last May, and I absolutely love it. It has such a lovely tone, that I fall in love with it each time I play it. I tried out several Bosies at the factory in Vienna, and I was struck by how much difference there was between pianos of the same make and model. I played four 214VC's each set up for a different purpose. The biggest difference was which hammers were installed. My piano has Renner hammers, and has a more mellow voice and a fantastic dynamic range, especially on the pianissimo end. It has a wonderful evenness across all registers. It works very well in a large living room, and is easy to play. Another, with Abel hammers, was targeted to the concert hall, and was quite loud and boomy. It still had the range and the beautiful sound, but I could not get the whispering pianissimo out of it. Perhaps this is the "race car" described above.

After owning the piano for a while, I have come to appreciate it more and more. It holds tune very well, has not developed any "breaking in" issues that my previous pianos had, and makes me happy every time I play it!


So Bosendorfer uses different types of hammers depending on the intended use of the piano? That's very interesting. Does any other manufacturer do this?

#2704530 - 01/13/18 08:55 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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I discussed last night with some piano technicians. It seems that they try to optimize each piano individually and the technical guy in charge of setting up the piano choose the best configuration including the type of hammer.
Also each piano can be set up for the concert or for use in a private living room at any time.

#2704600 - 01/13/18 01:06 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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The Bosendorfer 280VC I had an opportunity to play a couple months back was one of the most impressive concert grands I had ever played, retaining the incredible resonance and warmth of the characteristic Bosendorfer tone, yet with much more thickness and power (equalling or exceeding many Steinways I have played), with no "breaking" into a percussive tone and louder volumes (a common flaw with the older Bosendorfers I have played). This particular instrument I played was voiced on the darker side, and would have worked very well in a living room. The 214 VC was equally impressive as well.


Sauter Delta 185, Bosendorfer 225, Ibach F III 215


#2704731 - 01/14/18 03:06 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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I tried a 214VC yesterday in Paris. I leave a few words in my opinion:

- The quality of manufacture is surprising. A perfect finish
- Touch very light, even a little too much. Very easy to play, but in some directories, it lacks a bit of firmness
- Clear sound, beautiful sound color and the length of sound is very good. But the sound color palette is quite limited. From ppp to fff, we do not feel much change. For me, it is the color sound a bit like "wood" to several dyes, but always wood, too square. Another Model 200 next door shows a very wide color palette, and we all have: wood, felt, fabric, leather, copper ...
- The new duplex scale system is wonderful. The extreme highs are very crystalline. The bass is very good, but less typical Bösendorfer

My preference is always Model 225


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
#2704742 - 01/14/18 05:49 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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Hi Trandinhnamanh

The one I tried is also the one in Paris, A party has been organized on Friday night around Bösendorfer. Maybe we met there?
Actually the 214 VC is in a special room almost without reverberation, even if there is a window along one side of the piano, the sound comes mainly from the piano front. Although you can have a good feeling of the tone and action,etc.. the sound cannot develop in the room as in a more natural environment. So it maybe explain a limited change between ppp and fff in particular. Actually fff in this room is of course fff but without been as loud as in a normal room. At least it was the case when I tried the piano when it was in the middle of the room. Maybe it has been a bit improved now that it is closer to the window. I noticed wonderful bass for example with respect to the other position but I did’t have the opportunity to spend much time on the piano on Friday.
On the contrary the bosendorfer showroom where there are models 200, 170 has a lot of reverberation.

#2704833 - 01/14/18 01:10 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Originally Posted by Audiolinear
Hi Trandinhnamanh

The one I tried is also the one in Paris, A party has been organized on Friday night around Bösendorfer. Maybe we met there?
Actually the 214 VC is in a special room almost without reverberation, even if there is a window along one side of the piano, the sound comes mainly from the piano front. Although you can have a good feeling of the tone and action,etc.. the sound cannot develop in the room as in a more natural environment. So it maybe explain a limited change between ppp and fff in particular. Actually fff in this room is of course fff but without been as loud as in a normal room. At least it was the case when I tried the piano when it was in the middle of the room. Maybe it has been a bit improved now that it is closer to the window. I noticed wonderful bass for example with respect to the other position but I did’t have the opportunity to spend much time on the piano on Friday.
On the contrary the bosendorfer showroom where there are models 200, 170 has a lot of reverberation.


Yes, I tried the same piano at the same place as you, but not in the Bösy friday night. Yesterday, they moved the piano closer to the window. To me, it's ok for the dynamic range of the piano, but the sound color is a little bit monotone. Bass sound is fine, but the lowest 3 notes is not deep enough (maybe I'm too familiar with my Steinway C's very deep bass). I just love the Bösen 200 Klimt in the Bösendorfer room.


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
#2705046 - 01/15/18 08:24 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Audiolinear Offline
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Another point: this piano 214 VC is said (from different sources) to be able to played pppp like whispering . I found myself not that easy to play pianissimo but maybe it is only a matter of tuning or pianist skill !

#2705101 - 01/15/18 11:29 AM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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Originally Posted by Audiolinear
Another point: this piano 214 VC is said (from different sources) to be able to played pppp like whispering . I found myself not that easy to play pianissimo but maybe it is only a matter of tuning or pianist skill !

That’s right. This piano’s touch is amazing. I didn’t have any problems for playing pppp or FFFF with this piano. Just the lack of timbre colors that made it less interesting


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
#2705147 - 01/15/18 01:31 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: Audiolinear]  
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It is one of the (understandable) hazards of trying pianos and then making a generalization about a model/series, based on a sample size of one. It’s equally possible the positive or negative attributes could be explained by dealer prep, or just how that specific piano came out of the factory.

What’s really funny is when you develop a dislike for something, based on sampling several pianos, and then run into a specific example that is so nice, it makes you question what you experienced before.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
#2705152 - 01/15/18 01:45 PM Re: Bösendorfer latest models Vienna Concert [Re: terminaldegree]  
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
It is one of the (understandable) hazards of trying pianos and then making a generalization about a model/series, based on a sample size of one. It’s equally possible the positive or negative attributes could be explained by dealer prep, or just how that specific piano came out of the factory.

[...]


Slightly off topic but not unrelated to what terminaldegree has just written:

In the mid-80's, when Panasonic was a common brand in consumer electronics, a friend of mine had a bad experience with one of their products. For as long as I knew her thereafter, she vowed that Panasonic manufactured poor products and categorically stated that she would never buy Panasonic again.

Regards,


BruceD
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