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#2704407 - 01/12/18 07:33 PM Yamaha GrandTouch action  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 477
Joe Garfield Offline
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Joe Garfield  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 477
Los Angeles, CA
I'm surprised - a search didn't turn up much?

I just stumbled across Yamaha's CLP series webpage. They make a lot of comparisons to a grand piano action, but then they really just seem to talk about counterweights. Is the GrandTouch anything like the Avant Grande action, or Kawai's Grand Feel action? Pivoting wood keys,felt, pins, and some kind of escapement?

I'm moving to Hawaii and trying to decide if I should sell my CS11 and buy something when I get there, or try to ship it.

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#2704410 - 01/12/18 07:41 PM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: Joe Garfield]  
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,263
Gombessa Offline
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Gombessa  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,263
Originally Posted by Joe Garfield
I'm surprised - a search didn't turn up much?

I just stumbled across Yamaha's CLP series webpage. They make a lot of comparisons to a grand piano action, but then they really just seem to talk about counterweights. Is the GrandTouch anything like the Avant Grande action, or Kawai's Grand Feel action? Pivoting wood keys,felt, pins, and some kind of escapement?

I'm moving to Hawaii and trying to decide if I should sell my CS11 and buy something when I get there, or try to ship it.


I haven't seen anyone disassemble a 685 or 675 yet, and Yamaha doesn't release pictures of its action as far as I know.

But my guess is it is a modified NW-X action. Same basic NW/GH3 structure, folded pivot, and bent-pin hammer, but with longer keysticks making for a longer pivot (and weighting/counterweighting presumably adjusted to account for the new pivot length).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai MP11
#2704476 - 01/13/18 12:54 AM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: Gombessa]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,366
EssBrace Online content
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EssBrace  Online Content
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Gombessa

...my guess is it is a modified NW-X action. Same basic NW/GH3 structure, folded pivot, and bent-pin hammer, but with longer keysticks making for a longer pivot (and weighting/counterweighting presumably adjusted to account for the new pivot length).


I'd guess the same. But this is what they seem to be claiming as the action's USP:

"The greater length of GrandTouch keys give the player MORE leverage, allowing for better expressive control, even at the backs of the keys. This is the same support length found on the Yamaha S3X premium grand piano (as of April 2017), and is the longest support length used on any digital piano."

#2704572 - 01/13/18 11:28 AM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: EssBrace]  
Joined: Aug 2016
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Gombessa Offline
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Gombessa  Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace

I'd guess the same. But this is what they seem to be claiming as the action's USP:

"The greater length of GrandTouch keys give the player MORE leverage, allowing for better expressive control, even at the backs of the keys. This is the same support length found on the Yamaha S3X premium grand piano (as of April 2017), and is the longest support length used on any digital piano."


I've seen that. My take is not to read more into it than what they are actually saying.

They're talking about greater length and more leverage. And they're comparing the support LENGTH found on the S3X. There's *nothing* in that statement that implies a brand new mechanism, parts based on a grand action or any re-design of the same Graded Hammer base they've been using for two decades....if they've made a drastic shift in design, I can't believe they wouldn't trumpet it. My own take is that everything in that statement can be satisfied simply by lengthening the pivot point (and making necessary adjustments to accommodate the change) of the existing action, and unless Yamaha provides more detail (or a buyer uploads a nekkid post/video), it's probably the most prudent course to not assume more (but that's just me).

I will take their "longest support length used on any digital piano" at face value though, that's a factual claim and legally they need it to be backed up. When I played a 685 it did have a noticeably long pivot length (at least comparable to Kawai's GF IMO).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai MP11
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#2704659 - 01/13/18 05:20 PM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: Joe Garfield]  
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 91
WarrenY Offline
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WarrenY  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 91
Denver, USA

Found this image on Google search.

[Linked Image]

compare it to this.

[Linked Image]

GrandTouch looks to me like a newer version of NWX ... wood for white keys only and in plastic shells. It's plastic for black keys and still a folded hammer action ... can't tell the pivot length from these images.


Yamaha U1|Roland HP506+JBL LSR305
#2704665 - 01/13/18 06:04 PM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: Joe Garfield]  
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,263
Gombessa Offline
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Gombessa  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2016
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Nice find! It looks like that extra key length is an the front of the keys, which is the easiest way to extend then because the hammer pivot, hammer, key pivot and leaf spring can all be kept in the same position as on a standard NW. Judging from the counterweight position, it looks like a tad less than 1" extra (which is actually a lot of extra length).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai MP11
#2704726 - 01/14/18 02:28 AM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: Joe Garfield]  
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3
dddaaannn Offline
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dddaaannn  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3
Seattle, WA, USA
Reidys has this brief description confirming that the key length is the main difference: https://www.reidys.com/blog/clp645-vs-clp675-yamaha-clavinova-what-is-the-difference-2011/

I spent half a day at a dealer a couple of weeks ago comparing up and down the CLP line and liked the 685 the best. I may have been noticing the counterweights more than the key length: the 685 has GrandTouch with counterweights, the 675 has GrandTouch without counterweights, the 645 is NaturalWood. All were excellent, but I was totally charmed by the 685. I don't have extensive experience with acoustic grands, though of course I tried to compare with the grands in the store. I tried playing further up the key to sense a difference in pivot point, but I can't say it was a big difference. Regardless, my CLP-685 should arrive in a couple of weeks. smile

The CLP-645, CSP-170, and the CVP-705 and 709 use NaturalWood. If I already had NW I don't think I'd be upgrading just for GrandTouch, but I can't say if the key action alone justifies the price difference between the CLP-645 and 675. I'm upgrading from a 16+-year-old CVP-207, and I'm confident it'll be worth it. I'd be curious to do a side-by-side of the CVP-207 plastic keys and the less expensive GH3X pianos.


Yamaha Clavinova CLP-685 • 36-year dabbler, three-time adult learner
#2704734 - 01/14/18 03:15 AM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: dddaaannn]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 147
Amirhsol Offline
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Amirhsol  Offline
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Tehran
Originally Posted by dddaaannn
...: the 685 has GrandTouch with counterweights, the 675 has GrandTouch without counterweights, the 645 is NaturalWood. All were excellent, but I was totally charmed by the 685.

This also confirms my findings. Having spent some time with these models, I also prefer the 685. It's worth mentioning that the 645's touch is quite similar to my 575.
Originally Posted by dddaaannn
... Regardless, my CLP-685 should arrive in a couple of weeks. smile

Congrats! I'm also about to order mine and, once ordered, it'll be delivered in 24 hours.
Originally Posted by dddaaannn
The CLP-645, CSP-170, and the CVP-705 and 709 use NaturalWood. If I already had NW I don't think I'd be upgrading just for GrandTouch, but I can't say if the key action alone justifies the price difference between the CLP-645 and 675. I'm upgrading from a 16+-year-old CVP-207, and I'm confident it'll be worth it. I'd be curious to do a side-by-side of the CVP-207 plastic keys and the less expensive GH3X pianos.

Hmm. I'm dead sure you've taken these into account, but compared with the CLP-645, The CLP-675 offers a better/more powerful speaker setup. And, for whatever it's worth, the latter offers the GP Response Damper Pedal.
At any event, my upgrade story is tougher than yours -- I'm upgrading from the CLP-575 which offers NWX (the 645b clone). Had I had the 585, though, I'm not sure if the upgrade would have made much sense as there's a world of difference between how the 575/585 sound. The 685 also sounds considerably better than the 675.

#2704735 - 01/14/18 03:35 AM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: Amirhsol]  
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3
dddaaannn Offline
Junior Member
dddaaannn  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3
Seattle, WA, USA
Oh yup, there are other differences that justify the line. Yamaha has always been skilled at distributing features up the price range. I was gunning for the biggest upgrade in key feel short of buying an acoustic grand, and I no longer have a use for CVP-style features. The NU1 hybrid was very impressive, basically indistinguishable to me from an acoustic upright and priced similarly to the CLP-685, but I like the grand-style action. I'm looking forward to a major upgrade in headphones experience. The old 207 sounds great with its speakers but very tinny in the mid-range over headphones.

Glad to hear you can get yours quickly! My dealer sold their floor model and made it sound like orders are backed up. I don't even have a firm date yet.

Sorry Joe, I didn't get a chance to try the AvantGrand. I tried a CS11 at a separate store but wasn't considering it seriously enough to compare it closely to the Yamaha.


Yamaha Clavinova CLP-685 • 36-year dabbler, three-time adult learner
#2704738 - 01/14/18 04:01 AM Re: Yamaha GrandTouch action [Re: dddaaannn]  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 147
Amirhsol Offline
Full Member
Amirhsol  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 147
Tehran
Originally Posted by dddaaannn
... The NU1 hybrid was very impressive, basically indistinguishable to me from an acoustic upright and priced similarly to the CLP-685, but I like the grand-style action. I'm looking forward to a major upgrade in headphones experience. The old 207 sounds great with its speakers but very tinny in the mid-range over headphones.

Interesting! I came to the very same conclusions re the NU1 hybrid. Of course, the updated NU1X should put up a more exciting fight, but think I'd still go with the 685.
Originally Posted by dddaaannn
Glad to hear you can get yours quickly! My dealer sold their floor model and made it sound like orders are backed up. I don't even have a firm date yet.

Thanks. here the CLP-685 and the previous 585 flagship don't sell well due to the economic situation. Most digital buyers prefer the 525/625/635/645. What's more, you can't find their Kawai equivalents here as the Kawai dealer doesn't offer them at all.


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