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sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 #2656081
06/24/17 03:30 PM
06/24/17 03:30 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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Hi,

I am having a problem with the sustain pedal on this piano. It is probably because I am not familiar with all the buttons and adjustment options. I just turn it on and play. I do really like the action.

When I am playing a bop style tune (short notes) every once in a while in the piece I have to use the pedal. Sometimes, after I use the pedal, the following notes are sustaining slightly (not completely), which seems to clear if I push down all the way on the pedal. Is this normal? Or is something wrong? Is there an option somewhere I can turn this off?

I read the manual, but I have to admit my eyes glazed over. I tried the pedal from my Yamaha CP5, but that one just sustains even after I release the note, so something between that pedal and the MP11 is not compatible.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

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Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656088
06/24/17 04:01 PM
06/24/17 04:01 PM
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pianomike Offline
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Hi drphamer, I'm not sure what your pedal is doing but when I first got my MP11 I accidently put the three cords in the wrong order in the back and the pedals didn't work right till I put them in the right order.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656094
06/24/17 04:11 PM
06/24/17 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by drpharmer
Hi,

I am having a problem with the sustain pedal on this piano. It is probably because I am not familiar with all the buttons and adjustment options. I just turn it on and play. I do really like the action.

When I am playing a bop style tune (short notes) every once in a while in the piece I have to use the pedal. Sometimes, after I use the pedal, the following notes are sustaining slightly (not completely), which seems to clear if I push down all the way on the pedal. Is this normal? Or is something wrong? Is there an option somewhere I can turn this off?

I read the manual, but I have to admit my eyes glazed over. I tried the pedal from my Yamaha CP5, but that one just sustains even after I release the note, so something between that pedal and the MP11 is not compatible.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


So, you're half pedaling (the damper pedal is only partially pressed down) but when you lift the pedal from half damper position, the half damper sustain remains for a period...Is this correct?


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: Doug M.] #2656147
06/24/17 08:24 PM
06/24/17 08:24 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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Sorry but I don't know exactly how a half pedal should work.

In this case, even after I lift off the pedal the next notes I play still sustain longer than they should. If this is how a half pedal works is there a way to disable it?

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Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656187
06/25/17 12:12 AM
06/25/17 12:12 AM
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Are you using the included 3-pedal unit, or a 3rd party pedal? In my experience, third party pedals don't always work well with the MP11.

IIRC, there are two areas in the menu where pedal settings reside--in the EDIT menu, and also in the SYSTEM menu. One of these has a right pedal calibration routine, which I would recommend you try. It could very well be that your pedal's voltage stays just higher than nominal when off, and the MP11 is reading that as being slightly on.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656188
06/25/17 12:14 AM
06/25/17 12:14 AM
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drpharmer , you may be interested to know, I too have a similar problem (starting just a few days ago) with the sustain pedal on my MP 11.

I have had the instrument for a few years with no real problems ( the odd glitch now and then) but now intermittently when I use the sustain pedal, it does not "shut off' when I lift my foot and even comes on unless I actually disconnect the sustain pedal cord. This problem is not constant - it happens only intermittently but it is quite frustrating. I am in the process of having the problem dealt with the authorized repairer - hopefully it is just the pedal and not the keyboard which has the problem.


Andy

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: AndyP] #2656195
06/25/17 01:05 AM
06/25/17 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyP

drpharmer , you may be interested to know, I too have a similar problem (starting just a few days ago) with the sustain pedal on my MP 11.

I have had the instrument for a few years with no real problems ( the odd glitch now and then) but now intermittently when I use the sustain pedal, it does not "shut off' when I lift my foot and even comes on unless I actually disconnect the sustain pedal cord. This problem is not constant - it happens only intermittently but it is quite frustrating. I am in the process of having the problem dealt with the authorized repairer - hopefully it is just the pedal and not the keyboard which has the problem.
Andy


There's been some discussion about the 3-pedal unit from the MP11, including the fact that the pot in the sustain is a fairly standard carbon film type with multi-filar wiper. It's not a high-reliability pot, so after a few years of regular use you can expect the pot to fail. Hopefully that's the issue (meaning at least it can be taken care of with the pedal rather than the piano).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656197
06/25/17 01:26 AM
06/25/17 01:26 AM
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Gombessa, thanks for the reply - hopefully the issue I have is with the pedal unit not the keyboard. I was not looking forward to sending off my keyboard !

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656292
06/25/17 12:20 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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Does anybody have a good number for tech support for Kawai? I would try that and let everyone know how that goes.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656293
06/25/17 12:21 PM
06/25/17 12:21 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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BTW, I have only had this piano maybe 3 months, so it's not from sustained use.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656354
06/25/17 04:35 PM
06/25/17 04:35 PM
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Not sure where you are located, but if you are in the USA/Canada, the Kawai America phone number that I have is: (310) 631-1771 (Los Angeles area). You probably want to speak with Alan or Juan, these guys really know their products well and I have received excellent service from them in the past. (have the serial number of your keyboard handy when you phone).

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: kanadajin] #2656397
06/25/17 07:48 PM
06/25/17 07:48 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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Thanks Kanadajin, I am in the US, and I will call. This will take a couple weeks, I am away on a business trip starting tomorrow. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2656409
06/25/17 08:20 PM
06/25/17 08:20 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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drpharmer, I'm sorry to read that you're experiencing some issues with your MP11's F-30 damper pedal unit.

As kanadajin notes, the best course of action would be to contact Kawai America directly to report the issue. My colleagues in the US are very knowledgeable, and should be able to identify and resolve the matter promptly.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2658631
07/03/17 03:36 PM
07/03/17 03:36 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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The problem is identified. I have a bad pedal. I called the number above and talked to Alan. It only took a few minutes to find that the range on my pedal is not correct. The lower range should be 0 or 1, Mine was around 30, so the piano thinks the pedal is still on. They are sending a new one. Alan was great to talk to, he taught me a lot.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2658632
07/03/17 03:41 PM
07/03/17 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by drpharmer
The problem is identified. I have a bad pedal. I called the number above and talked to Alan. It only took a few minutes to find that the range on my pedal is not correct. The lower range should be 0 or 1, Mine was around 30, so the piano thinks the pedal is still on. They are sending a new one. Alan was great to talk to, he taught me a lot.

Not sure I understand this. I thought the pedal-calibration tool was supposed to sort this problem out. If I've understood correctly, it reads the boundary resistance values and sets those to correspond to 0 and 127 respectively.

Still you'll have a new pedal so nothing for you to worry about. I've had three F-30s and they've all failed. Now stuck with conventional on/off sustain (single).

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: dire tonic] #2658651
07/03/17 05:21 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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I tried the calibration described in the manual. It did not work. Alan also said the calibration for this problem could only be done at their facility. Sorry I can't be more specific. Not my area of expertise.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2658704
07/03/17 08:47 PM
07/03/17 08:47 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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drpharmer, thank you for the update.

I'm glad you were able to speak with Alan, he's a lovely guy, and incredibly knowledgeable.

Fingers crossed that the replacement pedal resolves the issue that you have been experiencing.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2688067
11/08/17 02:11 PM
11/08/17 02:11 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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Update:

The replacement pedal unit they sent me worked fine until the last couple days when it started doing the same thing, sustaining notes even after the pedal was released. I called the same number, they are sending another pedal unit to me. So I consider their tech support may be the best I have ever seen anywhere. And the MP11 is the best piano I have played anyway. If only I could get a durable pedal...

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2688121
11/08/17 06:38 PM
11/08/17 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by drpharmer
Update:

The replacement pedal unit they sent me worked fine until the last couple days when it started doing the same thing, sustaining notes even after the pedal was released. I called the same number, they are sending another pedal unit to me. So I consider their tech support may be the best I have ever seen anywhere. And the MP11 is the best piano I have played anyway. If only I could get a durable pedal...


It's odd to see the same failure with two separate units. If the problem is with the pedal(s), my guess is that it is occasionally giving variable resistance values, so even if you calibrate it correctly, once in a while it spikes or drifts in a way that the piano interprets as a half-pedal.

But since this happened with two units, it could be the failure is in the piano, perhaps in the circuit that reads the resistance from the pedal? I think if your third unit behaves the same as the first two, it would be a strong indication that this may be the case.

I'm also sure that it's cold comfort to know that the MP11SE's new digital optical pedal unit is most likely immune to the foibles of these analog pot circuits wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: Gombessa] #2688125
11/08/17 07:04 PM
11/08/17 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
...I'm also sure that it's cold comfort to know that the MP11SE's new digital optical pedal unit is most likely immune to the foibles of these analog pot circuits wink


Interesting thought about the benefits of digital optical over old fashioned pots.

I would be inclined to agree that optical sensors are less prone to analog frailties, but then again any speck of debris can foul up an optical reader something fierce.

My understanding is that most cases of misfiring DP keys these days are attributable to the optical sensor becoming flustered by a tiny particle of debris making its way under one of the rubber key switch housings on the circuit board.

Since 2 out of 2 pedals worked fine at first, but then began misbehaving, I wonder if perhaps something like this is going on here?

- OneWatt

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: OneWatt] #2688133
11/08/17 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by OneWatt

My understanding is that most cases of misfiring DP keys these days are attributable to the optical sensor becoming flustered by a tiny particle of debris making its way under one of the rubber key switch housings on the circuit board.


Outside of the AvantGrand and Novus, I don't think any DPs are utilizing optical sensors. Those rubber caps house conductive carbon discs, and when the caps are depressed, the carbon comes into contact with and bridges an electrical circuit. It's essentially the same mechanism inside a typical membrane keyboard or a an old school game controller.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: Gombessa] #2688162
11/08/17 10:07 PM
11/08/17 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by OneWatt

My understanding is that most cases of misfiring DP keys these days are attributable to the optical sensor becoming flustered by a tiny particle of debris making its way under one of the rubber key switch housings on the circuit board.


Outside of the AvantGrand and Novus, I don't think any DPs are utilizing optical sensors. Those rubber caps house conductive carbon discs, and when the caps are depressed, the carbon comes into contact with and bridges an electrical circuit. It's essentially the same mechanism inside a typical membrane keyboard or a an old school game controller.


Then I stand corrected! I mistakenly thought the key switch sensors on the Kawai MP line were optics-based technology. Sorry for adding confusion to the discussion. - OneWatt

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2688407
11/09/17 09:20 PM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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The discussion about electronics is beyond me. But I still think the problem is with the pedal. The piano has been working fine since I got it around last March, there has only been about 2 weeks when I had a problem with notes sustaining after I release the pedal. Seems to me it's consistent with a part wearing out in the pedal. If there was a different pedal I could buy that would be compatible with the MP11 I would buy it. I tried my Yamaha pedal but the notes just sustain continuously even though the pedal is not pressed.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2688618
11/10/17 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by drpharmer
The discussion about electronics is beyond me. But I still think the problem is with the pedal. The piano has been working fine since I got it around last March, there has only been about 2 weeks when I had a problem with notes sustaining after I release the pedal. Seems to me it's consistent with a part wearing out in the pedal. If there was a different pedal I could buy that would be compatible with the MP11 I would buy it. I tried my Yamaha pedal but the notes just sustain continuously even though the pedal is not pressed.


Well, it sounds like you're being well-taken care of by Kawai, so hopefully the replacement pedal solves the issue!

FWIW, there have been quite a few complaints made about the F-30 pedal unit, which I'm sure is part of the reason Kawai decided to completely re-engineer a state of the art replacement for MP11SE. That single upgrade is more compelling to me than the SK-EX or any of the other changes to the new version. I so want to get my hands on that new pedal unit.

Also, I've successfully used a Yamaha FC3A with the MP11, though it's not officially supported. You have to jump through some hoops to get it working (namely, you can reverse the polarity of the pedal in the MP11 settings, which gets rid of the "sustained when not pressed and not-sustained when pressed" behavior). and you'll also need to perform the right pedal calibration routine in the settings menu. After doing that, the only issue I had was that notes started off sustained when the MP11 is first powered on, but tapping the pedal once fixes it. I liked the weight and smoothness of the Yamaha pedal better, but as my F-30 worked fine, I decided to keep using it until and unless it breaks. After that, I have a few ideas of things I'd might like to try.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2689145
11/13/17 12:15 PM
11/13/17 12:15 PM
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Bumping this thread up. I just had this happen over the weekend for the first time (odd coincidence, huh?), and the behavior is exactly as drph described.

Some notes would partially sustain after releasing the pedal, and it's very obvious that they do.

However, not all notes would sustain, and it's not a full sustain. It's also not an undamped string resonance or pedal resonance tone, it's clearly individual note sustains. But there's no way I could replicate the particular sustain, as it sounded odd and like a mixture of sustain pedal and sos pedal...Pressing or pumping the pedals had no affect on the sustained notes, but new notes didn't seem to sustain oddly.

This happened while playing through Garritan CFX too, which adds another wrinkle to the possible root causes. It could be the pedal, it could be midi from piano, but it's not the built-in tone generator.

When it was happening, I wondered if I should reach over and pull out the pedal jacks to see what would happen. Instead, I first woke the laptop screen to see if it was registering any pedal-down over MIDI, but unfortunately CFX was in one of its typical fugue state (where the sound works fine but the display just freezes and doesn't update).

After a few more seconds, everything cleared up, and has been working fine since then. I haven't been able to repro it.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2704713
01/14/18 12:24 AM
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drpharmer Offline OP
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My 2nd replacement pedal from Kawai is doing it again!!! The notes sustain when played after I lift my foot off the pedal. This lasts for a few seconds, then clears up. I have been receiving great support from Kawai, and I love the piano, but I am done with the F-30 pedal unit. I'm ordering a Yamaha FC3A and I'm going to try and change the settings like Gombessa said above. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2704878
01/14/18 04:17 PM
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I'm still pretty sure that this problem could be solved by some experimenting with calibration.

I would also try resetting MP11 to factory settings just to be sure that no other settings are affecting the pedal. You can save your setup to a USB flash drive before reset.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2705567
01/16/18 10:57 PM
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OK I got the Yamaha FC3A pedal, plugged it in, reversed the polarity, and calibrated it. It works great! The settings were retained when I turned the piano off and on again. Now lets's see how long this one lasts. My other Yamaha pedal for my CP-5 still works after years of use.

Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2705568
01/16/18 11:01 PM
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IMO the FC3A is as bulletproof as they come. It's sturdy, has smooth travel, and good tension for modulating the press.

Like most standalone pedals it slips around a bit on hard floors if not backed against a wall though (where the cable then gets kinked).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: sustain pedal problem on Kawai MP11 [Re: drpharmer] #2708729
01/26/18 05:17 AM
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I don’t know whether these pedals are made the same way as the MP10 pedals were, but I had this problem with mine.

I could pull out the jack plug from the back of the MP10 and no sustain, put the plug back in and half pedal like effect.

I opened mine up and found a very simple mechanism inside, and it was easy to loosen and move the plastic bit that pressing the pedal moves. I rotated it very slightly and it worked perfectly.

I think they are a generic pedal badged by Kawai as there’s a few identical ones by different manufactures, for example the kurzweil kfp2s looks identical to my MP10 F20 pedals, or maybe pedals being pedals, they just look the same.


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