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Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2695471
12/08/17 11:42 PM
12/08/17 11:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,058
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Agent88
BEFORE you posted (you were typing?) I made an edit you may find heartening. Please read the end of my post above.

I did see your edit-to-add, Agent88, and we have no quarrel or disagreement. In fact, we are on the same page totally. If I said I've never told a lie I'd be telling a lie (George Washington and the apple tree?:-).

However, I have learned that when it comes to pianos and piano dealers, or even many private sellers, buyer skepticism can be a healthy thing. In fact, I believe the most successful piano salespeople have to sell themselves and convince the prospective buyer that they are sincere and genuine in what they are saying about the product they are selling, and, they are indeed being truthful. The product does not always sell itself.

A good salesperson sells perception as much as product. Convincing the prospective buyer that they have found their dream piano, or at least a good stepping stone toward something better, is the art of the deal, and, hence, the perception the buyer needs in order to close the deal. Having a silver tongue and a strong command of the English language (or whatever language is relevant) is a must. Also, a good salesperson is very likable and charismatic. Most people will be more inclined to buy from someone they like as opposed to someone they don't like.

Things to look out for and be wary of when it comes to sale-speak is inconsistencies in statements from one conversation to the next, facts that do not check out when researched, overzealous descriptions and representations of the product, etc... Sometimes you can just go with your gut instincts as to whether or not something is right. Thing is, a really good salesperson can pull the wool over the eyes of the savviest and wisest of consumers/buyers.

How did I get on this subject? smile

Oh well, it was a good read anyway, if I do say so myself. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2695491
12/09/17 03:16 AM
12/09/17 03:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,695
North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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North Carolina
I had this experience around 20 years ago. I should have walked away from that dealer.

Lesson learned. I trusted MY tech. So if the a dealer doesn't allow that tech to inspect, he is negating MY choice. In that case it only makes sense to shop elsewhere. I wish I had.

Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2695550
12/09/17 10:38 AM
12/09/17 10:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,595
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
You need not resort to lying of any kind. If you have a friend who will help you, all you need to do is show him/her the piano on the website, then have the friend call the dealer and identify the specific piano seen on the website and ask if he/she can come over and try it out? If the answer is "yes" you know that you were lied to when told it was sold. If the answer is "I'm sorry it is sold", then your friend asks "then why is it still for sale on your website?" He will then need to give an answer. You can then evaluate his answer.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2695564
12/09/17 11:33 AM
12/09/17 11:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,058
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I had this experience around 20 years ago. I should have walked away from that dealer.

Lesson learned. I trusted MY tech. So if the a dealer doesn't allow that tech to inspect, he is negating MY choice. In that case it only makes sense to shop elsewhere. I wish I had.

Good points, Mac

Originally Posted by P W Grey
You need not resort to lying of any kind. If you have a friend who will help you, all you need to do is show him/her the piano on the website, then have the friend call the dealer and identify the specific piano seen on the website and ask if he/she can come over and try it out? If the answer is "yes" you know that you were lied to when told it was sold. If the answer is "I'm sorry it is sold", then your friend asks "then why is it still for sale on your website?" He will then need to give an answer. You can then evaluate his answer.

Pwg

And this, my friends, is called diplomacy. thumb


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2695591
12/09/17 01:19 PM
12/09/17 01:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,357
Urbandale, Iowa
S
Steve Chandler Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,357
Urbandale, Iowa
I thought I'd add an opinion to this. There's a tech in my area who does great tunings, but has a strong opinion about the "plastic" in Kawai actions. I asked him about it and he ranted for a while and lost a bit of credibility for me (though he really is a great tuner). I could understand my local Kawai dealer (or any dealer selling used Kawais) not wanting this tech to inspect a potential instrument if it had any ABS (carbon infused or not) in the action.

Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2704152
01/12/18 02:51 AM
01/12/18 02:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 797
Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline OP
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Osho  Offline OP
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Portland, OR, USA
I wanted to give thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread - you all really helped.

In the end, I ended up getting the piano checked out by another reputed tech. The tech cleared the piano but showed several things that the dealer had either not mentioned or wasn't aware. I ended up not purchasing the piano after making a low-ball offer (the reason for my offer being low-ball was my distrust of the dealer and the extent of work required to get the piano to an acceptable level).

Originally Posted by Osho
Another note: I found this dealer using very shady 'used car salesman' bait and switch technique. For example, I was interested in a specific Kawai that is histed on the dealer's website in used Piano inventory. When I went in, that is the first piano I inquired about. And, I was told "I just sold it, but here are a few you might like in that range...". The thing is that Kawai is still on the dealer's website over 24 hours later. This looks like a classic 'bait and switch' technique.
As a side-note, this Kawai piano is still listed on the dealer's website.. after more than a month. Either they have a really slow IT dept. or this is a lying and deceitful dealer.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2704607
01/13/18 02:34 PM
01/13/18 02:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,595
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
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P W Grey  Offline
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P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,595
New Hampshire
Osho,

It would appear that your original gut feeling was correct.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 01/13/18 09:41 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2704710
01/13/18 11:57 PM
01/13/18 11:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,395
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Surrey, B.C.
WE have had similar situations in the past and I'm with the dealer here.
In Vancouver BC most stores do same knowing certain "trouble-makers" among a small group of tuners who find everything wrong with each and every piano. These people are typically "full of themselves" but are no value to anybody. The offer of someone alternative was IMHO made in good faith. Worth discussing some more.
All of this is irrelevant and non-applicable when dealing with with a fly-by-night dealer or of known "shyster" reputation. But why then visit him then in the first place?
Check his ratings first. A good start!
Norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2704764
01/14/18 11:07 AM
01/14/18 11:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,058
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Norbert
WE have had similar situations in the past and I'm with the dealer here.
In Vancouver BC most stores do same knowing certain "trouble-makers" among a small group of tuners who find everything wrong with each and every piano. These people are typically "full of themselves" but are no value to anybody. The offer of someone alternative was IMHO made in good faith. Worth discussing some more.
All of this is irrelevant and non-applicable when dealing with with a fly-by-night dealer or of known "shyster" reputation. But why then visit him then in the first place?
Check his ratings first. A good start!
Norbert

Norbert, online ratings can be manipulated, slanted and tainted; reputations can be exaggerated (in both directions). However, I do agree that some techs may well find something wrong with any and every piano they evaluate, except the ones they have for sale themselves.

Sometimes we can't really know what kind of person someone is until we actually deal with them ourselves. And, it has been my experience that when it comes to money, most people reveal their true colors...

By the way, I've learned a few new blues licks in the key of G and am having a ball! smile

All the best,

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Norbert] #2704806
01/14/18 12:51 PM
01/14/18 12:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 797
Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2017
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Portland, OR, USA
Originally Posted by Norbert
Check his ratings first. A good start!

This dealer does have the lowest rating of all the piano dealers in the local area.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2704865
01/14/18 03:39 PM
01/14/18 03:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,872
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,872
Seattle, WA USA
I would be one of those technicians who can find significant faults with almost any piano made or rebuilt in the world.

The reason I can do this is I know a tremendous amount about how pianos should be engineered and designed to maximize expressive tone, facile touch, dynamic control, stability of function and highest resistance to deterioration from use.

There are so many obvious problems with the vast majority of pianos regarding string terminations, hammer mass and pedal systems to just limit my remarks to three areas.

Many pianos have too round V-bars, (except for some of the new Kawai's I have seen). Many have too hard metal at the termination points. Almost all pianos come with hammers way too heavy to produce a wide dynamic range in the treble and they make a tremendous "whap" when the hammer strikes. And the design, materials and implementing of most pedal systems leaves much to be desired in proper control and durability. Many start squeaking/groaning within a few months of purchase. Proper design could eliminate almost all these problems.

As a good analogy I often compare the current state of piano engineering to the era of the Model T Ford. No real effort has been made to investigate and implement engineering into piano designs that would bring them into the 21st century. However, the piano factories have become much more modern in their production methods than their products.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Osho] #2704924
01/14/18 07:21 PM
01/14/18 07:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,395
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Surrey, B.C.
Appraisals of anything very much depend on the cost and value of the instrument.
Outside catastrophic damages, most things can be repaired or brought to a higher standard by a competent tech. Which again depends on original cost of the instrument as well as cost of qualified repairs.

Fact however is that there are some who seem to get a strange sense of satisfaction to poo-poo whatever gets under their hands. Cost, intention,expertise and mindset all are of important in this. There's no quick "right" or "wrong" and every case has to be evaluated on its own merit. HOWEVER, and I say this with great caution, there are occasionally some irritants that take away from all of this. One is a tech who works for other brands [often not fully revealed to the unsuspecting consumer] and those who are perhaps good tuners but not great techs. Which is unfortunately more the norm than the exception.

In Vancouver BC for example, we have a tech who was thrown out bythe store owner after criticizing virtually each and every new Fazioli he saw. This store has meantime become world's largest dealer of Fazioli. Hardly a feat by not being of excellent or at least "very good" repute. Same is true for virtually all others in our area here. And IMHO all other store owners would answer the question same.

Basic fact is that there's a level playing field by which most people will understand or eventually "get" things. One doesn't need extreme positions or opinions to accomplish this. A little common sense and research of things can still go a long way. There's no 'right' and 'wrong', only "what makes actually sense"
To the benefit of the customer and fairness to the store.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 01/14/18 09:39 PM.

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Norbert] #2704962
01/14/18 10:20 PM
01/14/18 10:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,872
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,872
Seattle, WA USA
So Norbert there is no "right or wrong" shape to a V-bar? With the attitude evinced in your post, reality becomes an entirely subjective experience. Piano customers deserve to have a choice to find pianos that work well for a lifetime. The current piano manufacturing industry is very poor at providing this consistently.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2704995
01/15/18 02:39 AM
01/15/18 02:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,588
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Retsacnal Offline

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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Many pianos have too round V-bars.

U-bars? wink ha


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: Dealer refusing a specific piano technician inspection [Re: Rickster] #2704998
01/15/18 02:48 AM
01/15/18 02:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,588
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Retsacnal Offline

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Originally Posted by Rickster
online ratings can be manipulated, slanted and tainted; reputations can be exaggerated (in both directions).

Speaking of which, did the documentary that master88er used to talk about ever get published (I missed a lot in the 2 years my wife was sick)?


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
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