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Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2704283
01/12/18 12:56 PM
01/12/18 12:56 PM
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Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
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I would think the RCM books are the same in Canada. Are you saying the books from Wharram are better?

The RCM set I'm referring to is the following. I'm not using any other theory books now, but it was Sarnecki that my teacher suggested and liked.

https://www.rcmusic.com/about-us/rcm-publishing/celebrate-theory

The above set(s) aren't cheap. There are three different sets. Theory, Counterpoint/Harmony, and History. Are they good compared to what else is out there? That I can't answer smile


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Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2704588
01/13/18 12:07 PM
01/13/18 12:07 PM
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pianopi Offline OP

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Thanks again for all your very helpful replies.

Keystring, I thought the teachers section would help because not only teachers, but students too, come here to give and receive help, and through discussions people would be au fait with lots of teaching resources. And it did definitely help.

I agree that theory makes a great deal more sense if it relates to actual piano (music) practice. It was suggested that I analyse a Bach piece I am working on to understand chord progressions, expression and phrasing; which I found I could not do.

Ideally, I would like an internet site like Khan Academy for music theory, where there are many videos and lots and lots of practice tests to try out your knowledge. And then, in addition, have a one-on-one series of lessons to work through my particular pieces. And it gets lonely working on your own (I 80% teach myself these days). You want someone to share your discoveries with.

I did a couple of coursera courses, which were somewhat helpful, but not enough repetitive exercises to do, and often not quite what I was looking for. Quite a few jazzy theory courses, but I am not quite at the jazz theory stage yet. I do keep an eye out for new coursera courses, though.

AZNpiano, I didn't quite know what secondary dominants were (or that they really existed - yes, the hole is turning out to be a lot bigger than I first thought), but did look them up after your post.

anamnesis, your line theory, and the post you referred to, sound very interesting. Appealing because I paint (mainly people, so skin tones, shadows and light, which fascinate me) and the layering of colours in flesh is as subtle and ever-changing as you describe the music in line theory. It is not just the pinks or blues, but all the colour-journeys you have to take take to get from that pink to that blue that make the art sing.

Everyone else, I have printed out this thread so I can go through every suggestion. And thank you for the very kind offer of one-on-one help from on of the forum members!


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2704627
01/13/18 02:23 PM
01/13/18 02:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,339
Canada
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I would think the RCM books are the same in Canada. Are you saying the books from Wharram are better?

The RCM set I'm referring to is the following. I'm not using any other theory books now, but it was Sarnecki that my teacher suggested and liked.

https://www.rcmusic.com/about-us/rcm-publishing/celebrate-theory

The above set(s) aren't cheap. There are three different sets. Theory, Counterpoint/Harmony, and History. Are they good compared to what else is out there? That I can't answer smile


Sorry, this will be long.

Ok, I had a look. Man, talk about "un-transparent" - no way of even seeing the author(s). I clicked on "purchase" (the series) and saw $236.00 - dunno if that was USD or CAD (I'm in Canada). It could be Sarnecki, or a recycled-divided-up-added-to Wharram, or a combination. I'll try to sort some of this out for you. First, in regards to Wharram, on Amazon.com I see the 2nd revised edition of Wharram's book, edited by Barbara Wood, as shown here for $42.00 new or $30 used, and there is an answer book that I never knew about for $30 ---- so a total of about $70 plus tax. It may be that the RCM itself sells these.

Ok, sorting this out. (I studied Wharram's book, wrote the intermediate and advanced exams, and taught all three levels to one student.) If you're an adult, this book will not look as intimidating as it might to a child: there's no large print, no pictures, no big spaces. First how the book is set up / how to use it, then what has probably been done with it in the "series" (which I haven't seen personally).

It's "rudiments" so in each chapter it takes one rudimentary element of music. The chapters in my book are as follows:
1. notation
2. major & minor scales
3. other scales & modes
4. intervals
5. chords
6. cadences and melody writing
7. time (simple, compound, mixed meter)
8. naming key, transposition, error detection
9. score types
The remaining chapters are more like references: dictionary of terms and forms; sample questions, index etc.

a) Each of these chapters (esp. the first ones) interrelate. I.e. if you learn about scales (2) intervals (4) are also involved. If you learn about chords (5), their position as Tonic, Dominant of a scale (2) is in there, as well as intervals (4) is involved (i.e. a minor and major chord both have a P5 in the outer notes when in closed root position).

b) All three levels (preparatory - P, intermediate - 1, advanced - 2) are contained in each chapter, clearly marked. The levels themselves are typically studied in regular lessons over several years. The advanced level exam might be written by a student doing their ARCT (teaching level) or earlier like while doing gr. 6 practical. I covered all three in a short time and then reviewed twice in more depth; my student worked intensely with me for about 18 months.
So how does this work (example, using scales):
Scales/keys: At the Prep level you will learn about major and minor scales, key signatures, and it will be restricted to those scales that don't have enharmonic equivalents (so no F# major vs. Gb major) - up to 4 sharps or flats. You only have the treble and bass clef. At the Interm-1 level the other scales are added. At the advanced-2 level you add the tenor and alto clefs. Other scales like whole tone, octatonic; modes, come in at this level.

Within the book, in each chapter, the levels are clearly marked. If it is advanced level, there will be a "2" in front of the information and the exercises. So the first time round you do everything marked P. When you get to the next level, you build on what you learned in the first level, and do everything marked 1. Etc.
Some exercises are marked P 1, or P 1 2, or 1 2, or just 2. There is an overlap. So if you're pretty well already there while at P, you might stretch yourself a bit. If you are at level 1, but you feel weak in that area, you might do the 1's and also the P 1's. In actual music all the skills and skill levels overlap anyway.

I like the fact that I'm not "going into it with blindfolders" level by level. I can see how each subject relates to the other subjects. I can also see how what I'm learning at the lower level applies to the higher level.

The later chapters such as "transposition" use everything learned before, and they are at a later level 1, and level 2. This is an exercise I did at the advanced level. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nibjrx4rz8grxln/Scan_20180113.jpg?dl=0 We don't usually need this! I enjoy this kind of thing.
This is an exercise in "notation" at the preparatory level - but note it's also marked P 1 2 clickable link since it didn't turn into a link

=====================================
I know nothing about the books in the site of your link. But I do remember that a year or so before I stopped lessons with the teacher I had then,a new series had come about which divided up the three levels packed into Wharram's book, and turned it into three friendlier looking books. It's the one where that teacher had been mad about the word "advice" in the word play advert. I never saw the books. What I understood from that brief mention that day over 10 years ago was that Wharram's book had been turned into three books, that additional things like maybe a CD or link with sound samples, and maybe some other things had been added. I don't know if any of these things are correct. The description in your link had a similar outline to what I know of Wharram, which also follows the exam syallabus (they're all interconnected).

A final word: This was my first introduction to theory. I didn't even properly know note names and had been winging it weirdly in "reading" for years. When I looked back, I did not like the fact that it was all theoretical, all a matter of writing things down and shoving note names around. When I taught it, I had my student explore the theory on piano (don't just learn that CD is M2, play it, hear it, how does it feel to you; tap out the 3/4 rhythm), and I also encouraged her to find that theory in real music wherever she could. I was still a student myself, and she was in another country, with another language and alphabet, and I was doing this pro bono to also strengthen my own first learning.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2704654
01/13/18 04:51 PM
01/13/18 04:51 PM
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Formal analysis goes hand in hand with an understanding of theory. Tonal center changes from one section of a type of composition to the next section, help simplify analysis.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2704663
01/13/18 05:52 PM
01/13/18 05:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Canada
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Originally Posted by pianopi
Keystring, I thought the teachers section would help because not only teachers, but students too, come here to give and receive help, and through discussions people would be au fait with lots of teaching resources. And it did definitely help.


I figured that was your thinking. I am not a piano teacher - for the most part I'm a student but I am learning things about music teaching, and also have a teaching degree. We do see students asking teachers for advice in the teacher forum, and that gets discussed from time to time (by the teachers). In these discussions it is usually pointed out that the forum exists for teachers to consult each other, discuss issues of pedagogy, teaching ideas, support each other and sometimes just have a place to vent. I see a secondary role, where parents of young students and adult students need to find out how to work with a teacher, find a teacher, what teachers want from them and don't want. This actually ties in with "venting about students & parents" because if they can learn what is wanted, maybe that can be mitigated. In any case, some teachers want to be involved in this part, and some don't. 10 years ago when I joined a big kerfuffle was brewing and I suggested a separate "meeting place" forum but this was rejected.

Where students ask teachers advice that they would normally get from their own teachers, some teachers feel that they are being asked to do their job for free. Others welcome it, unless it's excessive. Bottom line: you can ask a question and see what happens. smile You might get a brusk "Go buy a book." (which you got. wink )

IN THIS CASE, the question you asked is one that most teachers would not get involved in. That is, a teacher who teaches theory will not send a student to a site that teaches it. A teacher who does not teach theory won't have a reason for looking up such resources. The most likely place to find the information you were seeking is in the ABF. While it is called Adult "Beginner" Forum, that is a misnomer. Quite a few of the members are quite knowledgeable: they are learners and relearners. They have reason to have looked up such resources. You will also find teachers visiting that forum. These teachers are there because they ** want ** to interact with students, so it's win-win. smile

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2704669
01/13/18 06:14 PM
01/13/18 06:14 PM
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Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
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Thanks keystring for taking the time to write all of that. I'll check next Saturday during the lesson and see if I can find the author(s) in the book. Unfortunately, I didn't photocopy the beginning portion of the books I borrowed.

The 1 through 9 chapters that you mentioned is similar to how each RCM Theory book is broken out. However, RCM produces a theory book for each level 1 through 10. I'd rather have just one book. Most people don't go through each level anyway. The sections in each RCM book are

Getting Started
Pitch/Notation
Rhythm
Scales
Musical Interlude
Intervals
Triads
Putting it all Together.

If you're interested, PM me and I'll send you a copy of one of the pdfs I have. I think I see where RCM is going - more books, more money.

The Wharram book is looking more appealing to me. Thanks!


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Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2706858
01/20/18 07:41 PM
01/20/18 07:41 PM
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Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
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Hi Keystring, below is a pic taken of the inside cover of the Celebrate Theory Level 5 book. Maybe you know who they are smile

[Linked Image]

Link to full size image.

http://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/full/9406.png

Last edited by bSharp(C)yclist; 01/20/18 07:41 PM.

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Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2706860
01/20/18 07:51 PM
01/20/18 07:51 PM
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I'm afraid I haven't a clue. smile

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2707316
01/22/18 04:55 AM
01/22/18 04:55 AM
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I think that "music theory" itself is a pretty vague term. In my view, it would be better to ask for guidance on finding resources for specific topics, although it may not be easy to provide any.

The ABRSM theory syllabus is a pretty odd thing. For the first five grades it's really about music reading and notation, and not "theory" in the sense that a scientist would understand that term. Then it kind of morphs into stuff about harmony and counterpoint, and then it fragments into all sorts of mixed up topic -- conventions of baroque ornamentation, for example.

I don't know about anything much on line, but there are useful work-books that you can plod through if you want to learn the ABRSM syllabus. The problem with these, as others have noted, is that you need a teacher or at least a knowledgeable friend to work with you. There are companion textbooks (two official ones, and some others) that can help with the workbooks. I used the work-books to reasonable effect with my kids, but then I have a university qualification in composing, so my theory isn't too bad.

The analysis of specific pieces of music by Bach does require a good knowledge of harmony and counterpoint, but also of the musical conventions of the day. I think that ABRSM theory grade 6-7 would give you the conceptual tools you need, but really this kind of thing comes down to practice -- ideally under the guidance of a person who has experience of this kind of stuff.

A lot of my fellow composing students recommended Anna Butterworth's "Harmony in Practice" workbook. It deals extensively with the analysis of specific passages of music. Although it is a textbook, not just an exercise book, it probably works best if you do all the exercises. This might also need a teacher, but there is a companion answer book that can at least tell you if you are on the right lines. It certainly deals with secondary dominants, but any harmony book will.

I've never seen anything on-line, free or otherwise, that I rate very highly for teaching musical analysis.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: kevinb] #2707335
01/22/18 06:42 AM
01/22/18 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kevinb

The ABRSM theory syllabus is a pretty odd thing. For the first five grades it's really about music reading and notation, and not "theory" in the sense that a scientist would understand that term. Then it kind of morphs into stuff about harmony and counterpoint, and then it fragments into all sorts of mixed up topic -- conventions of baroque ornamentation, for example.

I don't know about anything much on line, but there are useful work-books that you can plod through if you want to learn the ABRSM syllabus. The problem with these, as others have noted, is that you need a teacher or at least a knowledgeable friend to work with you. There are companion textbooks (two official ones, and some others) that can help with the workbooks.

The ABRSM Theory syllabus through the grades, and the way it's organised, makes perfect sense when it's studied alongside doing the same grades for Practical. Learning theory from that syllabus in isolation doesn't make sense. If you're wanting pure music theory as an academic subject in itself, you'd be better off with some other course that focuses on it.

Grade by grade, the ABRSM Theory complements the Practicals. That's also why Grade 5 Theory is required before you can do Practical exams above Grade 5. But you don't need any higher Theory grades than 5 to do the rest of the Practical exams, and few students who do Grade 8 Practical bother with them - which is why compositional stuff etc gets incorporated from Grade 6 Theory onwards. It's considered that if you want to do the higher grades, you're wanting to delve deeper into music than purely being a pianist with good all-round practical & aural skills and some theoretical knowledge.

I also did Music 'O' Level (as it was then) as a student, which focused entirely on history and theory, and harmony and counterpoint. You're assumed to know about how music is notated etc, and it's concerned with theoretical & analytical knowledge and skills, not practical (though you also have to perform a couple of pieces from different eras of at least Grade 5 standard for the exam, because it's assumed that you're at Grade 5 standard or above on your instrument).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2707350
01/22/18 07:29 AM
01/22/18 07:29 AM
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Hi

A long time ago (late 80s / early 90s) I took ABRSM grade 5 theory, so that I could take ABRSM grade 6 Piano, which is the only Piano grade I've passed. I then took grade 7 Piano but failed. I quickly realised that I had got as far as I could in terms of 'classical' Piano grades (until I retire anyway), so I decided that just for 'fun' I'd try and get a grade 8 theory. Yes I wanted to be able to say I've got a grade 8! I then took and passed both ABRSM grade 7 and grade 8 theory.

My memory of the grade 8 exam is now hazy, but I happen to have kept some sample ABRSM grade 8 exam papers from 1990 (sad or what).

Typical typical questions from each of the 2 sections are:

Harmonise the following for S.A.T.B (9 bars)
The following is the theme from variations and fugue on a theme by Handel, composed by Brahms in 1861. Write briefly about the structure including reference to the harmonic outline (8 bars)

What do you understand by the words 'Classical' and 'Romantic'? Refer to examples and their composers.
Mention some of the compositions of Delius or Berlioz or Richard Strauss.
Explain three of the following: harmonic, unis., chalumeau, ponticello, open diapason.

Whether the exam is still the same 28 years later I have no idea.

As I say my memory is now very hazy, but clearly I got something out of doing the grade 8 theory as about 14 years later I completed a music diploma with the Open University. And I think much like Ben says about the grade 8, this is more for people who want to study music, not just play an instrument. For this qualification there was no requirement to be able play an instrument at all. However my experience was that those who started from scratch, found it very difficult in the first year (of two). Zero to beyond grade 8 theory in 9 months. That's very tough if you've never done any music at all.

Cheers


Simon
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Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: bennevis] #2707351
01/22/18 07:36 AM
01/22/18 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
The ABRSM Theory syllabus through the grades, and the way it's organised, makes perfect sense when it's studied alongside the doing the same grades for Practical.


Perhaps so, if the syllabus is considered in the terms you describe. The problem is that nothing in gr 1-5 merits the term "theory" in a way I can interpret that word. "Theory" really starts in gr 6. Before that, it's just fundamental notation skills. I'm aware that many musicians do use the word "theory" to mean "anything that isn't specific to an instrument", but that just makes it even harder to know what a person wants when asking for "theory" assistance.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: Simon_b] #2707352
01/22/18 07:40 AM
01/22/18 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon_b
And I think much like Ben says about the grade 8, this is more for people who want to study music, not just play an instrument.


Since the Trinity board don't ask for any "theory" qualification at all in their practical exams, and they are of broadly the same technical level as ABRSM, I have to question whether a "theory" qualification is actually of any use at all to a practicing musician. The music-reading skills in the early theory grades could be learned while learning to play specific pieces and, presumably, are.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2707358
01/22/18 08:18 AM
01/22/18 08:18 AM
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keystring Offline
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This thread has taken an interesting turn.
Ok, I started with RCM rudiments, doing all three levels - it's roughly the equivalent to ABRSM. In regard to the idea that one can get these things simply by playing music - that didn't happen in my case. I played music for decades, from scores, on various instruments, and I started theory rudiments precisely because of what was missing. For example, key signature: I'd simply known that "the last sharp points to Do" and I'd mentally sing my way into diatonic music that way. With Rudiments I sorted out key signatures, what an interval was, a basic understanding of chords (mostly vis a vis key signatures in a diatonic way), note values and time signatures .... no more sussing out that in the Saint Saens Swan the bird seems to kick forward twice per measure (6/8 time :D). Some of the things in the higher level were like note-acrobatics, sort of fun, but I don't know if they were of any practical use.

Harmony theory in all these series seem to go into four part harmony in the manner of a simplified Bach (one book takes Bach examples, and then warns not to break the rules that Bach broke). Is this actually a sensible way to go?

In general, you seem to have a kind of closed system. Recently I coined the analogy of teaching a child only the primary colours, and making sure the home only continued objects that were blue, red, and yellow. When the child steps outside and sees green grass, he's in trouble. Bringing this to music: you get theory geared to Common Practice period music, which is quite diatonic, and then in practical, you get Common Practice period music that is quite diatonic ..... not much green grass. What I started to do is to go on different tangents, look at music and its structure, and I have my teacher largely to thank for that, since the Common Practice rut I started with would not have allowed me to see the hole I was about to fall into. This included taking some elementary Coursera courses on non-classical music.

One example of a rut is the humble, misnamed "dominant 7" chord .... i.e. a major chord topped by a minor 7. You get taught that it has only one role: moving to the Tonic. The notes within that chord have a single prescribed path. As soon as you go to non-classical music, you'll find that chord has other behaviours and possibilities - and even in later "classical" music. The tritone has interesting possibilities - only one theory book that supported RCM harmony theory, but was not updated when the syllabus changed - tried to get past the "primary colour ghetto" - started boldly with the tritone before getting with the program.

I don't know if there is a single system out there. I'm not sure that I would want to forego formal theory entirely. The Teoria site is pretty good for that in terms of on-line sources. Exploring things like jazz chords, taking some non-classical type courses, happens to be the route I've taken.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: keystring] #2707363
01/22/18 08:35 AM
01/22/18 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
One example of a rut is the humble, misnamed "dominant 7" chord .... i.e. a major chord topped by a minor 7. You get taught that it has only one role: moving to the Tonic. The notes within that chord have a single prescribed path. As soon as you go to non-classical music, you'll find that chord has other behaviours and possibilities - and even in later "classical" music. The tritone has interesting possibilities - only one theory book that supported RCM harmony theory, but was not updated when the syllabus changed - tried to get past the "primary colour ghetto" - started boldly with the tritone before getting with the program.

This is one of the things that drives me nuts about many methods for music, they isolate things so much that the larger-practical context gets lost. You end up knowing what something 'is' but not how it fits together in the big picture. I understand that it works for some (my brother thinks like that), but I am not one of those students - I crave the big picture with the little details. In fact, I very much need it that way to make sense of things and get my bearings.

Thankfully, my current teachers are very good at putting things in context using simple, elegant instructions.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2707369
01/22/18 08:50 AM
01/22/18 08:50 AM
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To some degree it has felt like stepping into a minefield that is presented as a thing of perfect order - the room made up of primary colours. There do seem to be some general universally true principles, and these have helped me get my bearings, like anchors or a few lighthouses. There is such a thing as intervals which have qualities we tend to find more or less pleasant. There does tend to be some kind of tonal center that may change from time to time or become ambiguous in most music. The presence of I and V chords does seem to exist in some manner and co-relate in most music but with the function or feel of that V "substituting" maybe. Things like that.

There is a book written around 1904, I forget the name, for free via IMSLP, where the musician-teacher-author goes through understanding musical form by having students analyze samples from 20-30 sources for each concept. For example, you may try to find concluding cadences in a selected section of music which help you recognize the end, or partial end, of a section. He tells students that at the start they will not be able to recognize everything or "hear" everything, because the ability to recognize or hear is an ability that grows with time. He states that in music things are not absolute. I like that!

In contrast, there is a type of teaching that is meant kindly, but I thoroughly dislike. Here, everything is presented as absolute, and clear, by being simplified, with anything not fitting those simplified things being removed from view. You studiously absorb these simplified ideas, believing them to be true. You base your understanding of music on them. Then suddenly it's "Oh by the way, there are some exceptions." Eventually you discover a broader and more varied picture. You have to dismantle the "truths" you based yourself on, divest yourself of what you learned, relearn - I don't like that. In fact, you may not get the "by the way". If you are not locked in a room having only primary colours, you are going to encounter music which is perplexing, because it does not much what you have been taught.

(If any of this makes sense.)

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2707399
01/22/18 10:19 AM
01/22/18 10:19 AM
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This is probably off-topic, but... I'm not sure that "music theory" is even a useful term. There is no systematic, self-contained "theory" of music like the theory of universal gravitation or the theory of natural selection. All there is, is a set of documented conventions, with lose explanations of why things are as they are. I don't object to the subject by any means, but the term "theory" suggests something that doesn't really exist.

Anybody who believes that music theory is consistent is invited to explain what kind of second forms the interval between B# and Cb, and why.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: pianopi] #2707844
01/23/18 05:06 PM
01/23/18 05:06 PM
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"Theory" in this case is used to be the opposite of "practical". You see it in all kinds of disciplines and professional training. It is not the same as "theory" in science. Words are slippery. Words are symbol-inventions created by human beings who think it makes them better than other creatures, without being aware of their pitfalls.

Re: B# and Cb -- in which order? wink (I think I was taught that theory once, and could have given you the answer once upon a time - though it is nonsensical afaik.) I think you get something like a diminished 2nd or augmented 7th - something weird like that - depending on order. As to why: because of how the numbers and names got organized.

Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: kevinb] #2707875
01/23/18 06:26 PM
01/23/18 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinb
This is probably off-topic, but... I'm not sure that "music theory" is even a useful term. There is no systematic, self-contained "theory" of music like the theory of universal gravitation or the theory of natural selection. All there is, is a set of documented conventions, with lose explanations of why things are as they are. I don't object to the subject by any means, but the term "theory" suggests something that doesn't really exist.

Anybody who believes that music theory is consistent is invited to explain what kind of second forms the interval between B# and Cb, and why.


It's a doubly diminished second with two staff positions, or doubly augmented seventh with seven staff positions.

The terms diminished and augmented only refer to by how much an interval size is changed when compared to the reference major/minor/perfect interval. Any resulting flip in direction doesn't matter.

B to C is a minor second. [1 semitone]

Sharpening the bottom staff position note reduces a semitone so you apply the diminished term:

B# to C is a diminished second [1-1= 0 semitone]

Flattening the top staff position note also reduces a semitone so you also apply the diminished term:
B to Cb is a diminished second [1-1= 0 semitone]

The interval you want does both moves simultaneously making the interval smaller twice, so it is doubly diminished:

B# to Cb is a doubly diminished second [1-1-1= -1 semitones, it's still effectively reduced twice despite the change in direction]

The seventh expands the interval twice due to sharpening the top note and flattening the bottom note, making it doubly augmented.


Last edited by anamnesis; 01/23/18 06:39 PM.
Re: Advanced Theory course? [Re: kevinb] #2707881
01/23/18 06:55 PM
01/23/18 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinb
... but the term "theory" suggests something that doesn't really exist ...

I disagree - the term “theory” suggests something not fully understood ...


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
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