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Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" #2704547
01/13/18 11:21 AM
01/13/18 11:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
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kalmycke2 Offline OP
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kalmycke2  Offline OP
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Hello everybody,

I have a bit more general question: How would you rate the disadvantage of older (let's keep it within max 10 years), probably used DPs (no focus on the used aspect, though)? I only read about all the fantastic upgrades which come with the newer generations, but how big is this impact actually?

Additionally: Are the benefits of newer DPs weighing up a probably higher class but old DP? Some examples, for which I would just like to assume are available at similar prices:
- Yamaha CLP 470 vs CLP 625 (the 470 comes with wooden, individually weighted keys but is about 6 years old)
- Kawai CA 13 vs CN 27 (again, wooden keys on the old CA 13, but I think like 7 years old)
- Yamaha P95 vs P45 vs Kawai CN23
The older models probably have the advantage on the action, but how much did that improve over the years? The current models probably the better sound, but...

Any comments / experience? Thank you!

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Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704549
01/13/18 11:32 AM
01/13/18 11:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 760
Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Osho  Offline
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Portland, OR, USA
Originally Posted by kalmycke2
The older models probably have the advantage on the action, but how much did that improve over the years? The current models probably the better sound, but...

Why do you think the older models have the advantage on the action? In general, the actions in DP have been getting better over years, not worse for the same price range DPs.

Sound has certainly improved significantly - as the cost of memory and processing power has fallen. But, not as much as I would like - I still use VSTs primarily.

The one area where I think not much has improved in general is speakers + amps.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai CA-67 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: Osho] #2704553
01/13/18 11:38 AM
01/13/18 11:38 AM
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kalmycke2 Offline OP
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kalmycke2  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2
[/quote=Osho]
Why do you think the older models have the advantage on the action? In general, the actions in DP have been getting better over years, not worse for the same price range DPs.
[/quote]

Because originally, the old DPs I listed here where in a (signigficantly) higher price range. E.g. the CLP 470 was sold for about twice as much as the CLP 625 is now, thus featuring wooden, individually weighted keys vs. plastic, group-weighted keys on the 625.

Last edited by kalmycke2; 01/13/18 11:39 AM.
Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704554
01/13/18 11:44 AM
01/13/18 11:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Osho  Offline
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Originally Posted by kalmycke2
Originally Posted by Osho

Why do you think the older models have the advantage on the action? In general, the actions in DP have been getting better over years, not worse for the same price range DPs.


Because originally, the old DPs I listed here where in a (signigficantly) higher price range. E.g. the CLP 470 was sold for about twice as much as the CLP 625 is now, thus featuring wooden, individually weighted keys vs. plastic, group-weighted keys on the 625.


Oh, well in that case - it is apples to orange comparison.

But, I can say that if you compare a piano in $4000 range from 10 years to something in the same range today - the action has significantly improved. Sadly, the same cannot be said for the speakers+amps.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai CA-67 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
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Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704559
01/13/18 12:06 PM
01/13/18 12:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,667
Chicago, Illinois
David Farley Offline
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David Farley  Offline
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Chicago, Illinois
We have some sort of Korg digital piano in the listening room at the library where I work. I had nothing to do with its purchase. I looked it up once and it was at least ten years old, although I can't remember the model number. I'm sure that it cost a lot of money, and an entire committee here was probably involved in choosing it, and I'm sure it was considered realistic at the time. Alas, the one time I sat down and played it a little, it felt much more like the "piano lab" pianos I remember from the '80s, and not at all like even close to the entry-level Yamaha I bought used five years ago (have since upgraded).

Last edited by David Farley; 01/13/18 12:45 PM.
Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704568
01/13/18 12:23 PM
01/13/18 12:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 368
Finland
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clothearednincompo Offline
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Finland
As an example Yamaha has used the NW "Natural wood" action for a long time already. At least in the Clavinova 3xx series already. Of course now there's the NWX "Natural wood with escapement". I don't know if there's any other difference between those two.

So, an old Clavinova CLP-370 for example could be a cheap way to get the NW action. If one uses VSTs anyways the internal sounds don't matter.

The action may not really have improved that much.

(And is NW really a "Holy Grail" anyway?)

I could get a used Kawai CA65 for around 1500 Euros probably. (There's one advertised for 1 650 Euros.) That would be a relatively cheap way to get my hands on the Grand Feel action. And a still up-to-date sound engine. Compare that with the other alternatives in that price range. A new Kawai CN37 would be quite close. Or an ES8. Maybe a CA17 too. All have either plastic or shorter keys. And one lacks the Harmonic Imaging XL found in the CA65.

(Not that I really want or need a used CA 65.)

Sometimes a used one may make sense and other times maybe not. I do like the idea of a 5...10 years warranty for example.

Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704577
01/13/18 12:35 PM
01/13/18 12:35 PM
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Posts: 4,453
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anotherscott Offline
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anotherscott  Offline
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Originally Posted by kalmycke2
Yamaha P95 vs P45


Yamaha's progression in lightweight hammer action slabs was P85 to P95 to P105 to P115, all with the same action, but with some improvements as they went along (and sometimes a step backwards, i.e. the P105/P115 lost the MIDI jacks).

When they got to the P105, they also came out with a lower end line, P35 ---> P45, though they also use the same action.

Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704578
01/13/18 12:35 PM
01/13/18 12:35 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,408
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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terminaldegree  Offline
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Georgia, USA
I get to see moderate to high-use digital pianos regularly as someone who spends time teaching in group/class piano labs. It is my perception that, with age and use, digital actions do deteriorate in performance before they fail. The lab we just replaced, for example, had some keyboards where the pedals all functioned and all 88 keys did work, but not to the same degree of precision, noise, or appearance as they did when the units were new. Given that springs, rubber, and felt are often part of the build, it merits consideration for someone with high-performance expectations.

clothearednincompo, I think the oldest NW Yamaha action I remember playing was the CLP-280, back around 2004. I remember thinking it was quite nice at the time...


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704583
01/13/18 12:47 PM
01/13/18 12:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,499
France
Frédéric L Offline
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Frédéric L  Offline
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France
The difference between NW and NWX is the escapement simulation : if we are carefull, when pressing a key, they is a little added force halfway we can feel. I don’t think this will help playing the piano.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Effect of aging / old, "good" vs new, "cheaper" [Re: kalmycke2] #2704614
01/13/18 02:50 PM
01/13/18 02:50 PM
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Deck Offline
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It matters less and less as you can used them as MIDI keyboard (with a VST) and can even add studio monitors.i expect my CA78 to last a while as glorified midi as the action is great and not going to get much better anytime soo. In this price range.


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