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#2704518 - 01/13/18 07:59 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Well ..... Here page full of Focal monitors ....

Which 6.5 monitor are you speaking of ?

https://www.sweetwater.com/c404--Focal--Studio_Monitors


Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
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#2704537 - 01/13/18 09:36 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Originally Posted by dmd
Well ..... Here page full of Focal monitors ....

Which 6.5 monitor are you speaking of ?

https://www.sweetwater.com/c404--Focal--Studio_Monitors




Well, I got impatient (my nature) .....

I ordered 2 of these ....

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha80


Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
#2704581 - 01/13/18 11:45 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by dmd
Well ..... Here page full of Focal monitors ....

Which 6.5 monitor are you speaking of ?

https://www.sweetwater.com/c404--Focal--Studio_Monitors




Well, I got impatient (my nature) .....

I ordered 2 of these ....

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Alpha80




congrats, your stands might not be big enough

#2704613 - 01/13/18 01:48 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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I just received my equalizer ....

My settings ....

20-40 set to -6

40 - 630 gradually increasing to 0

630 - End gradually decreasing down to the lowest setting (-12)

It definitely makes a difference.

Do I like it ?

Of course, it always sounds good immediately. LOL ....

I will probably keep even if I keep my new monitors .... just for periodic changes to the sound.

Even a good sound can get old ... I think.

Thanks to all for the help.


Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
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#2704685 - 01/13/18 07:42 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Are those settings for the old speakers, or the new (8") speakers?

Quote
Do I like it?


That's all that really matters.

I think the new speakers will give you all the sound the ES8 is able to produce. What Kawai would have built in, if cost/ size/ weight weren't considerations.

Let us know ...


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2704688 - 01/13/18 08:01 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: Charles Cohen]  
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Are those settings for the old speakers, or the new (8") speakers?


That is for the Focal CMS 40 powered monitors.

I won't have the new ones until next week.


Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
#2704837 - 01/14/18 01:23 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Yes, if the space allows it, the Alpha 80 will do the trick. I was talking about the alpha 65, but that's only because I didn't have enough room for the bigger ones.
These should cover the entire range of most instruments quite well. They extend very very low. I started a thread on the subject a while back, and Falsch, who has the Alpha 80 said that they even worked for organs without a problem, which takes significant low frequency capability.

#2704963 - 01/14/18 09:21 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Well ... I am busy equalizing and here is what I have come up with so far ....

I am looking for a solo jazz sound.


All of the equalizer levers from 0 thru 400 are pushed to the lowest setting (down)

All the levers from 500 thru 5k are at the middle mark.

All the levers from 5k thru 29k are pushed to the lowest setting (down).

That seems to give me a nice sharp mid range allowing the melody to stand out.

All other sounds are softer, of course, but they do not seem muddy.

So .... that is at least a start.

That is with my JBL 305s.

The same settings with my Focal CMS 40s sounds similar but less distinct.

I intend to put those same settings on my new monitors (ALPHA 80) and see if they are worth keeping.

I actually could live with what I have but will give the ALPHAs a chance to shine.

I am sure I have not reached the pinnacle of sound (lol) so if others have suggests for equalizing I am listening.



Last edited by dmd; 01/14/18 09:22 PM.

Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
#2705034 - 01/15/18 05:37 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Originally Posted by dmd
Well ... I am busy equalizing and here is what I have come up with so far ....

I am looking for a solo jazz sound.


All of the equalizer levers from 0 thru 400 are pushed to the lowest setting (down)

All the levers from 500 thru 5k are at the middle mark.

All the levers from 5k thru 29k are pushed to the lowest setting (down).

That seems to give me a nice sharp mid range allowing the melody to stand out


Sounds like a very bold approach to equalising. The reason a graphic eq is divided into so many bands (the more the better, but) is that very subtle inconsistencies can be filtered out or compensated for - sometimes tiny alterations of one band.

If it works for you, that's fine, but I'd have thought that the frequency zone truncating you're doing there would give you something like a 'telephone sound'. It is the opposite of what most people do on a graphic, which is called 'smiley face' as the lowest frequencies are boosted, sweeping down to cutting the mids to an extent, and then sweeping up at the high frequencies. The gives an exaggerated (and rather unrealistic) 'hi-fi' effect.


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#2705055 - 01/15/18 09:14 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Yes, those seemed quite odd to me, too. I'm left wondering what the room and the speakers are like that allow such settings to produce "good" results. I'd expect quite the opposite.

#2705070 - 01/15/18 10:06 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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The room is a basement area (open and fairly large) with drywall, acoustic drop ceiling, carpeting.

Speakers are ones in my signature, against wall.

Maybe the issue comes because I try to reduce the bass in my sound.

When I use Pianoteq, I reduce the volume of the low end of the sound and also eq it down.

I wish to have a distinct melody (not muffled).


Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
#2705071 - 01/15/18 10:06 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Or what tastes. Maybe he is after a radio-like sound or one similar to a phonograph.
For a realistic piano sound output I'd want a linear response from 30hz (maybe 35, since the A0, B0 rarely get used) to 20kHz. Then it would sound reasonably "real". But maybe that's not what dmd is after.
Dmd, if a forward midrange with no bass and recessed trebles is what you're after, the Alpha 80 won't get you there. It's quite the opposite. It's almost full range, linear from 35Hz to 22kHz (+/-3db). Few monitors in this price range or lower give such linear frequency response that extends down to 35Hz.
And because of this, they will sound a bit dark, they will give lots of power in the bass range that you never had with your monitors and that you neutered further more with that equipment configuration.
My personal opinion is that if that's the sound you're after, you may just as well keep the cms40, since they're great monitors, but have virtually no bass, due to their low size.

PS. You'll have a hard time trying to eq all the bass out of the alphas. Also, you can do eqing out of Pianoteq as well, no need for ward hardware I believe.
And lastly, I don't see your signature, so only know what your speakers are because you mentioned it.

Last edited by mcoll; 01/15/18 10:19 AM.
#2705078 - 01/15/18 10:22 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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If you don't like the sound, maybe try another instrument, like the bluethner, the YC5 or the model b. They are brighter than the steinway d. Also try to adjust the velocity curve for a realistic response, and that may give you a brighter sound. But I don't think eqing out the bass will give you a natural piano sound in any scenario.

#2705086 - 01/15/18 10:44 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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It's ironic that a number of early posts suggested subs, assuming loss of bottom end was much of what he OP was noticing in the apparent degradation in switching from headphones to small monitors... but it turns out he's after LESS bass, not more! But what's confusing about this is, the original goal was to try to make speakers sound more like the "absolutely perfect" headphones. Is this extreme EQ really accomplishing anything close to that?

#2705087 - 01/15/18 10:50 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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Maybe the headphones are some old Nokia 3310 headphones? *shrug *
I also found it ironic how we all thought a fuller range was what was needed, considering the small monitors, but the chosen eq "curve" does the exact opposite, cutting even more bass and highs.

#2705095 - 01/15/18 11:18 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: anotherscott]  
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The bass area, particularly in the sort of 100 to 300 Hz can have huge fluctuations and is often the biggest problem spot, 10 dB spikes and troughs are quite normal in an untreated room with rear ported against the wall setups, and will reduce as you move them away from the wall, but that in turn will also move the points of constructive/destructive interference, thus shifting those peaks. IMO, easiest to have some soft furnishing behind, even a curtain or one of those acoustic treatment panels, I find that rather ugly so I worked with a curtain, this helped in my case instead of a hard wall to alleviate such issues quite a bit.

IMO it does not have to be perfect, but something to get rid of the major problem spots I found helps a lot, even my KRKs, not exactly lauded here I found to improve a lot that way to sound more controlled an quite pleasing in the end.

If you want a more linear response, you'd want to end up mostly likely with some staggered settings on the equaliser in that area in the bass to low mids especially.

Just as an example, here are the LSR305s measured in a real room,

[Linked Image]


As you can see, untreated rooms will never give anything close to the intended linear response you see in graphs (where the manufacturer publish them), which will have been done in an anechoic chamber, real rooms are all over the place. I use my monitors as close as possible, within a meter, this helps to get most of the direct sound, and less of the reflected sound. I see quite a few setups with them far behind the piano, personally I find them less effective that way.

Have fun equalising and experiment smile

Originally Posted by anotherscott
Is this extreme EQ really accomplishing anything close to that?


The way I see it, all he is doing is he will have something like the graph above, but will have moved everything down and up in various regions across the bands he mentioned except at the cross over point of those bands, but most of all those wiggles will still be there and most likely sound nothing like his headphones.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 01/15/18 11:19 AM.

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#2705112 - 01/15/18 11:46 AM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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I find experminting with subtle EQ changes are the most successful. Just a few db up or down in a few channels. Else distortion and unnatural problems arise. That said, I don't really use EQ boxes anymore (well I use mostly placement and furnishings).

If you are interested in replicating the sound of your headphones, you can compare the frequency response tables and adjust EQ on your 305s. Your headphones seem to fall off below 100Hz and above 1000Hz. Then there is a big spike and dip after 10KHz:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD598.pdf
http://noaudiophile.com/JBL_LSR305/

This is a good place to start but, a simple 2 dimensional snapshot is of limited use. The headphones have some characterisitcs which will be difficult for your speakers to replicate. For example, headphones "fully" isolate L&R channels. They don't have the same crossover issues. Headphones isolate some room acoustics which prevents lots of problems. Headphones might not provide natural decay of sound over time or visceral feeling throughout the room of low frequencies. Etc...

Measuring your room in a bunch of places around your pianobench with a cheap mic and a free program like RoomEQ Wizard would help you change this from the typical haphazard process to a more "scientific" process...

#2705170 - 01/15/18 02:35 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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As has been pointed out, having the speakers against the wall emphasizes the bass. One way to mitigate this: Put the speakers somewhere else in the room and get some music playing thru them - you can even do it using just one speaker. Then move your head around in the general area where you want to locate, let's say, your right speaker. Move your head closer to the wall, farther from the wall, closer to the floor, farther from the floor. You should hear LESS bass and MORE bass as you move your head around. Locate the speaker where you hear less bass.

You can do the same for the other channel, or just arbitrarily do a mirror-image - since you also want to maintain solid imaging.

#2705530 - 01/16/18 06:11 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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My sound shaping effort has expired.

I did my best but have found that I am not getting the result I had hoped for.

A more knowledgeable sound man probably could do better but I do not wish to spend my time doing that.

What I noticed during this process is that the sound the audience hears is not the sound I hear as I play.

That is good news because the sound the audience hears sounds good to me (I was the audience for a recorded piece).

The other good news is that I cancelled my order of the ALPHA 80s and that will save me a bundle.

So .... now to spend some time practicing and playing instead of adjusting and re-adjusting and re-adjusting ..... ad infinitum ...

Thanks to all for your help on this but it was just not to be and I am fine with it.

Now ... LOL .... What I have sounds much better .... and so it goes ....


Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
#2705551 - 01/16/18 08:34 PM Re: Sound Shaping Device [Re: dmd]  
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All's well that ends well -- even if it takes some twists and turns along the way!


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
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