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Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available #2703626
01/10/18 08:02 AM
01/10/18 08:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,208
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content OP
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Kawai James  Online Content OP
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Good evening folks,

Kawai Japan has issued a software update for the CA98 and CA78 digital pianos.

This recommended v1.0.2 update addresses a number of bugs and operation issues, and is recommended for all customers.

The full update changelog is shown below:

Quote
v1.0.2 (December 2017)
– Fixed: Issue related to incorrect display at power-on time.
– Fixed: Issue related to incorrectly displayed sound when using Dual/Split/Four Hands keyboard modes.
– Improved: Damper Noise parameter volume.
– Fixed: Issue related to the Metronome display.
– Fixed: Issue related to the A-B repeat function.
– Fixed: Issue related to the song recorder.

v1.0.1 (October 2017)
– Fixed: Issue related to Damper Noise parameter saving.
– Fixed: Issue related to Pianist Demos.
– Fixed: Issue related to the Concert Magic song title display.
– Fixed: Issue related to the song recorder.
– Fixed: Issue related to the display of files stored on USB memory.
– Fixed: Issue related to the song delete function.

v1.0.0 (October 2017)
– First production version.


The software update and update instructions can be downloaded from the respective CA98/CA78 product pages or ‘Software Updates’ page of the Kawai Global website, at the following URLs:

http://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca98
http://www.kawai-global.com/product/ca78
http://www.kawai-global.com/support/updates

CA98/CA78 owners are encouraged to update their instruments to use this latest software version.
We also recommend that users backup any user-created recordings before applying the update.

Note that Kawai software updates are cumulative, i.e. the v1.0.2 update includes the fixes and improvements provided with all previous versions.

That's all for now - please feel free to post your feedback in this thread.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2703630
01/10/18 08:14 AM
01/10/18 08:14 AM
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London, UK
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hello world Offline
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Amazing, thanks James! Great timing, just got my CA98 on Monday smile

I have a question:
My piano shipped with 1.0.0 (I guess it was not opened by the vendor and updated as suggested in the other thread).
There's also the EQ update on the German Kawai page that improves the sound quality for the internal speaker system (https://www.kawai.de/support/downloadcenter/ca98/). Your changelog does not mention any EQ changes for 1.0.1 or 1.0.2.
Does that mean that the EQ patch has to be applied separately? Is there a way to check if the EQ patch has been applied already? I think somebody was suggesting that it didn't change the version number.

Last edited by hello world; 01/10/18 08:15 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: hello world] #2703634
01/10/18 08:28 AM
01/10/18 08:28 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content OP
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hello world, welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new CA98!

Originally Posted by hello world
There's also the EQ update on the German Kawai page that improves the sound quality for the internal speaker system (https://www.kawai.de/support/downloadcenter/ca98/). Your changelog does not mention any EQ changes for 1.0.1 or 1.0.2.
Does that mean that the EQ patch has to be applied separately? Is there a way to check if the EQ patch has been applied already? I think somebody was suggesting that it didn't change the version number.


This v1.0.2 update includes the EQ update posted by Kawai Europe (and other fixes), therefore it will not be necessary to apply any other updates.

As you will see from the update instructions, this full v1.0.2 update actually consists of three separate update files: one for the main CPU board, and two for the touchscreen display.
The EQ update previously posted by Kawai Europe contained just the CPU board update, and no touchscreen update.

To clarify: this v1.0.2 update is the latest available, and recommended for all CA98/CA78 customers.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2703650
01/10/18 09:29 AM
01/10/18 09:29 AM
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@James, I was hoping for the LCD panel to go almost completely invisible in auto-off mode. But it's still quite visible. Is it possible the backlight is still on, even when the display is "auto-off"? Would it be possible to turn the backlight off, too, in a future firmware version?

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2703661
01/10/18 10:30 AM
01/10/18 10:30 AM
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Yeah, i will get mine (98) next week i hope. smile

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: madshi] #2703783
01/10/18 08:09 PM
01/10/18 08:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello madshi,

Originally Posted by madshi
@James, I was hoping for the LCD panel to go almost completely invisible in auto-off mode. But it's still quite visible. Is it possible the backlight is still on, even when the display is "auto-off"? Would it be possible to turn the backlight off, too, in a future firmware version?


Thank you for your suggestion.
I have passed on this request to the CA development team for consideration.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2703874
01/11/18 04:15 AM
01/11/18 04:15 AM
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Thank you! smile

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2709081
01/27/18 08:17 AM
01/27/18 08:17 AM
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James, I intend to go to my Kawai dealer and test the CA78 tomorrow. As always, I usually bring with myself a USB drive to update the corresponding piano to the latest version. (And he's BTW very thankful when I do this because he's not tech savvy and is very afraid to perform these things smile ). Now, I see some weird stuff in the update procedures and I have some questions:

1. I see there are three update files, one for the main system and two for the LCD screen. According to the instructions, I should update separately each of those by putting only one of the files in the drive at a time. Is this correct, can you confirm that? Is it possible that I copy all the three files on the drive and still be able to update each subsystem selectively, since I see there's a different "chord" I need to press prior to turning the piano ON? P.S. Sorry, I see the chord for the two LCD updates are the same, so apparently I'll have to copy files separately.

2. Is it a typo that the third update file takes 120 minutes to finish?! This is so odd!

3. Supposing the answer to 2 is yes, is it possible that I only update the main system and skip the two other files? I really won't have whole day to fiddle withe software updates smile


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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: CyberGene] #2709648
01/29/18 12:22 AM
01/29/18 12:22 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello CyberGene,

I hope this response is not too late!

Originally Posted by CyberGene
1. I see there are three update files, one for the main system and two for the LCD screen.


Correct.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
According to the instructions, I should update separately each of those by putting only one of the files in the drive at a time. Is this correct, can you confirm that?


Yes, that's the recommended method - in order to avoid any mistakes.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it possible that I copy all the three files on the drive and still be able to update each subsystem selectively, since I see there's a different "chord" I need to press prior to turning the piano ON?


I'm afraid I have never tried this for myself. It may work, however...

Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. Sorry, I see the chord for the two LCD updates are the same, so apparently I'll have to copy files separately.


Yes, the mainboard update and the two LCD updates require different keys to be held when turning on the instrument.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
2. Is it a typo that the third update file takes 120 minutes to finish?! This is so odd!


That's not a typo, however I believe 120 minutes is the *maximum* time required. It may be less (depending on the contents of the update), but updating the LCD panel typically requires 90+ minutes to complete.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
3. Supposing the answer to 2 is yes, is it possible that I only update the main system and skip the two other files? I really won't have whole day to fiddle withe software updates smile


Yes and no. If you update just the mainboard, the instrument should still boot. However, if there is a version mismatch between the mainboard and the LCD, some functions that are expecting calls from the UI (and vice versa) may not work correctly, or there will be instability etc. For this reason, Kawai Japan distributes the update files as a single ZIP (rather than offering separate downloads for the mainboard and LCD), to ensure that the system and UI are always in sync, and that everything functions as intended.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2709865
01/29/18 04:26 PM
01/29/18 04:26 PM
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CyberGene Offline
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Thanks James, the response is not late: I missed the CA78 opportunity because it had been sold, so I couldn't test it frown Anyway, I wouldn't bother with firmware updates in the store, it's a bit awkward (multiple restarts, file copies) and time consuming now... Hopefully the next time they have CA67 in the store it will be a unit that's been shipped with the new (EQ-fix) firmware.

Last edited by CyberGene; 01/29/18 04:27 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710556
02/01/18 05:49 AM
02/01/18 05:49 AM
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Galuwen Offline
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Hello James,

can you give us a date or timeline when the major bugs of the new touch display will be solved:
- no possibility to save basic parameters like wall eq,... on startup
- no possibility to "see" or readout Favorite settings
- no German Keyboard, no upper case letters
- loud hissing noise bug on Bluetooth playback
- no "rewind" or navigation in USB files possible
- loudness button invisible during usb playback
- system crashes whilst using usb playback
- crash bug with headphones plug (system reset)

Thx a lot. Alexander

Last edited by Galuwen; 02/01/18 05:50 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710558
02/01/18 06:16 AM
02/01/18 06:16 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello Galuwen, welcome back to the forum.

I gather that you are already in contact with my colleagues at Kawai Europe (via the German forum) regarding your listed concerns, therefore my recommendation would be to provide them with a detailed explanation for each point.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710564
02/01/18 08:00 AM
02/01/18 08:00 AM
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Dear James, Alexander and the others,

I'm not sure that Kawai (Europe or Japan) understands that
- the bugs Alexander just listed are fundamental and very annoying,
- the ones regarding the favorites make this basic function simply useless,
- the worst bugs have been present in the firmware since 1.0.0 in October 2017,
- the "banana principle" is not acceptable for an ePiano costing €3500.

In summary: a great hardware (keyboard, sound) destroyed by a very bad GUI. Easy to mend in software, but still not corrected after > 4 months. Sad, but true. If I had noticed these bugs in the shop, I would probably NOT have bought a CA98 and I would be less frustrated today.

I begin to doubt that the engineers at Kawai play themselves on the ePianos they develop! And I won't speak about all the software features which are not well implemented or just missing (ergonomy, real switch off of the LCD screen, automatically saving the sound settings at switch off…).

Regards
Patrick

Last edited by paf; 02/01/18 08:01 AM.

Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2710567
02/01/18 08:44 AM
02/01/18 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by paf
bad GUI[/b].


I have not updated yet but for sure this GUI is weird, not consistent.

sliding up-down left right for a sound is ridiculous, they should have kept the same menu design as 'music' with just a up-down by categories (Piano, organ, etc..), I would not mind small pictures within the category, but only within.My 2c.

Beside I have a blast with my 78, Pianist is great.

Last edited by Deck; 02/01/18 08:57 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2710568
02/01/18 08:48 AM
02/01/18 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by paf
Dear James, Alexander and the others,

I'm not sure that Kawai (Europe or Japan) understands that
- the bugs Alexander just listed are fundamental and very annoying,
- the ones regarding the favorites make this basic function simply useless,
- the worst bugs have been present in the firmware since 1.0.0 in October 2017,
- the "banana principle" is not acceptable for an ePiano costing €3500.

In summary: a great hardware (keyboard, sound) destroyed by a very bad GUI. Easy to mend in software, but still not corrected after > 4 months. Sad, but true. If I had noticed these bugs in the shop, I would probably NOT have bought a CA98 and I would be less frustrated today.

I begin to doubt that the engineers at Kawai play themselves on the ePianos they develop! And I won't speak about all the software features which are not well implemented or just missing (ergonomy, real switch off of the LCD screen, automatically saving the sound settings at switch off…).

Regards
Patrick


Interesting. The final reason why I rejected the CA67 after just a week was the software which I thought was very badly designed and buggy - I do have over 55 years programming experience! I had hoped that the newer GUI would have been a proper rewrite.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Galuwen] #2710571
02/01/18 09:04 AM
02/01/18 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
Hello James,

can you give us a date or timeline when the major bugs of the new touch display will be solved:
- no possibility to save basic parameters like wall eq,... on startup
- no possibility to "see" or readout Favorite settings
- no German Keyboard, no upper case letters
- loud hissing noise bug on Bluetooth playback
- no "rewind" or navigation in USB files possible
- loudness button invisible during usb playback
- system crashes whilst using usb playback
- crash bug with headphones plug (system reset)

Thx a lot. Alexander

I would like to add another point (even though I don't own such a DP, I've heard people complainig about it, and wee can see this bug in some official Kawai video !)
=> When the screen is slid vertically, like a scroll to see function out of the screen, if you move your finger horizontally, even every slightly, it move the value of the sliders under your finger. I looks very annoying.
For those who have an iphone (I guess Android is the same), there is a kind of threshold : the sliding is horizontal OR vertical (exclusively), unless your finger move in diagonal above a kind of distance threshold.
I don't know if it is clear, but any GUI programmer will understand what I mean ...


old Yamaha CLP 170, and looking for a new DP !
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710575
02/01/18 09:14 AM
02/01/18 09:14 AM
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by the way, has anyone managed (with CA78/98) to use a VST via bluetooth MIDI on Windows 10 ? it connects fine as bluetooth but i can only use a VST with a usb-Midi cable (This bluetooth MIDI works perfectly well with iphone/ipad).

Last edited by Deck; 02/01/18 09:16 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710576
02/01/18 09:19 AM
02/01/18 09:19 AM
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Hi Folks,

forgot to mention that this is my 4th CA in series (CA93, CA95, CA97 and now CA98).

I have to point out furthermore that I had the chance to test the CA98 in the shop against all manufacturers and also compared it with acoustic GP's from different manufacturers.

Please refer to my in-depth look and review of my new CA98 in the German Kawai forum. I come to the conclusion that the CA98 is a milestone and breakthrough in digital Pianos by any means.

Even if I had known the issues above and my salesman had told me DON'T BY IT!! Don't!!! I would by it without ONE SECOND THINKING again and again!!!!

Just wanted to help you folks to improve the software ( I COULD help with testing the EQ update and everybody is really happy now).

Thx KAWAI, thx James and I think I bet on the "right horse" 🐎 Years ago eben I decided to give KAWAI a try :-) :-) :-).

Galuwen

Last edited by Galuwen; 02/01/18 09:44 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2710583
02/01/18 10:08 AM
02/01/18 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by paf
I begin to doubt that the engineers at Kawai play themselves on the ePianos they develop! And I won't speak about all the software features which are not well implemented or just missing (ergonomy, real switch off of the LCD screen, automatically saving the sound settings at switch off…).

Some executives think that software is some special magic, which is updated and finished at the customer's premises.

It's not to hard to do software properly:

1. Put someone in charge who knows what they are doing. The guy who is great at working with hammer felt might not be the right one for the job.
2. Polish the product before shipping it to the customer.

My 800 € Bosch washer-dryer with a touchscreen is full with software too, but it doesn't get any firmware updates. Because it doesn't need to. It's UI is working fine out of the box and the laundry comes out perfect. This is because Bosch finished the product before selling and shipping it. Having software control the machine instead of a mechanical program doesn't mean it needs to buggy at release.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710584
02/01/18 10:16 AM
02/01/18 10:16 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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JoeT, you are right but then again, Bosch are an enormous corporation. I even know software engineers who work for Bosch in Bulgaria and they write software for home appliances and that's a huge office with maybe 100 people doing only that. Kawai are a small company and I doubt they have so many resources. I am not trying to justify the bugs but they are not the first and the last to release products prematurely. Far bigger companies than Kawai, including Apple, Samsung, etc. have released products with bugs.

On the other hand Kawai are known to be very responsive to software problems (I have personally discovered a small bug with my CA63 years ago and James could communicate to their engineers and they fixed it promptly.) Good luck with fixing eventual software problems in your Bosch smile Companies like those are known to actively refuse acknowledging problems. I am not saying your dishwasher isn't well tested but being too confident a product made by human is perfect has always been a huge mistake. See Titanic for example wink


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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710586
02/01/18 10:31 AM
02/01/18 10:31 AM
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The internet can be fast to forget and slow to forgive. Kawai historically has been more responsive to customer issues than just about any maker.

While a perfect shopping 1.0 product would be great, in reality it's pretty normal to have bugs and even zero-day patches. C'est la vie.

The main question is whether they will be fixed, or held over until the next generation (I could see something like LCD backlight off being simply unsupportable in firmware).

With display updates taking >1hr to apply, the chances of bricking a device during update rise dramatically, and I bet Kawai is working overtime to ensure that the fix is rock solid, and doesn't cause additional problems or require further updates.

Last edited by Gombessa; 02/01/18 11:41 AM.

Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Gombessa] #2710596
02/01/18 11:03 AM
02/01/18 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa


With display updates taking >1hr to apply, the chances of bricking a device during update are dramatically high, and I bet Kawai is working overtime to ensure that the fix is rock solid, and doesn't cause additional problems or require further updates.


For sure the update is scary, mine did not go through as the 3 files were on the usb (it has to be one by one), I had a sweat after 30min ;-) thinking it was bricked.

Honestly it s a piano, as long as it sound great and is usable, some GUI details do not bother me to much I will adapt to the quirks.

I am already quite glad that Kawai offers us such a wonderful and easy to use instrument, my kids have no issue with the screen, it s so much easier to use than weird buttons/ or keys to press.

Last edited by Deck; 02/01/18 11:03 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710602
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AND my Bosch dryer sounds TERRIBLE as a digital piano whilst connected via midi 😂...

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Gombessa] #2710603
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
While a perfect shopping 1.0 product would be great, in reality it's pretty normal to have bugs and even zero-day patches. C'est la vie.

Yeah, that is what executives decide, because some companies with no competition get away with it.

But there is distinction between general-purpose computers running complex software, which has to fit every task thrown at it, and a digital piano, which is built for a specific purpose. You can't know what people will throw at their GP computer after you sold it, so people will always find ways to break it. But it's pretty obvious what people will do with their digital pianos, so you can test and fix that during product development.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: CyberGene] #2710651
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
... Kawai are a small company and I doubt they have so many resources.

I wouldn't describe Kawai as "small company": $1'000'000'000 / year (one billion) revenue, 3000 employees
Originally Posted by CyberGene
...Apple, Samsung, etc. have released products with bugs.

Yes, but, as JoeT pointed out, their product are immensely more complex than the GUI of a digital piano. And 4 months after release, they could at least do what was written in the manual. On the CA78/98 we speak about basic functionality!

Kawai put an optically very attractive GUI together, for example the pictures of the instruments are gorgeous. The pure "piano" software seems good also, and it is certainly not easy with all realtime constraints and all the signal processing needed. If they put a little more effort in the functionality of the GUI, the result would be great. I can't imagine that being so difficult, the bugs related to the favorites seem real easy to correct and the ones related to bluetooth are new with 1.0.2.

And please, don't tell me that it is difficult to ensure that the sound settings survive power off... but of course, if the hardware is not designed accordingly, it may be impossible to switch off the backlight by software.

So, Kawai, please bring us soon the updates which which convert the currently best non-hybrid epiano with the worst software to the best overall!

Patrick


Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2710739
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Originally Posted by paf

And please, don't tell me that it is difficult to ensure that the sound settings survive power off..
Patrick


That was what finally did it for me with the CA67 when trying to adjust individual notes.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Deck] #2710799
02/01/18 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Deck
by the way, has anyone managed (with CA78/98) to use a VST via bluetooth MIDI on Windows 10 ? it connects fine as bluetooth but i can only use a VST with a usb-Midi cable (This bluetooth MIDI works perfectly well with iphone/ipad).


Deck, Kawai's Bluetooth MIDI functionality is only supported under iOS, macOS, and Android (albeit Marshmallow+, and then depending on the device). Windows 10 is not officially supported.

Moreover, from what I can gather, Windows apps must be specifically written/adapted to take advantage of the new Bluetooth MIDI connectivity introduced in Windows 10AE.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2710826
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by paf

And please, don't tell me that it is difficult to ensure that the sound settings survive power off..
Patrick


That was what finally did it for me with the CA67 when trying to adjust individual notes.

Do you mean you couldn't save your changes on the CA67? Because on my CA97, I have no problems with that (as far as I am aware).

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2710846
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by paf

And please, don't tell me that it is difficult to ensure that the sound settings survive power off..
Patrick


That was what finally did it for me with the CA67 when trying to adjust individual notes.

Do you mean you couldn't save your changes on the CA67? Because on my CA97, I have no problems with that (as far as I am aware).


I had one loud key which I had toned down, but it didn't survive the save. I think it was the same with the CA97 in the shop. See the other thread on C78/98 bugs and improvements by another software engineer. As he says, it really shouldn't be that difficult to write a decent program.

Last edited by Colin Miles; 02/02/18 04:41 AM. Reason: corrections

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2710852
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I had one loud key which I had toned down, but it didn't survive the save.


Did you press the STORE button after adjusting the parameter?

Here's the relevant explanation from page 81 of the CA97/CA67 owner's manual:

[Linked Image]

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2710865
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I had one loud key which I had toned down, but it didn't survive the save.


Did you press the STORE button after adjusting the parameter?

Here's the relevant explanation from page 81 of the CA97/CA67 owner's manual:

[Linked Image]

Kind regards,
James
x

As far as I remember Yes. I may be a programmer but I do sometimes read the manual. And if it isn't obvious then this is something else that should be addressed. Shame to spoil a good piano this way, though I would have preferred not to use the virtual technician at all.


Roland LX7

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Galuwen] #2710869
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
AND my Bosch dryer sounds TERRIBLE as a digital piano whilst connected via midi 😂...


I'll bet it has a very fast action though! grin

Last edited by karvala; 02/02/18 07:24 AM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2710914
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I'm glad I saw this thread. I've been having problems too but I thought I was doing something wrong. I've only had the CA 78 for two weeks. Thoroughly enjoying playing it but in it's present configuration I find the favorites setting basically useless. (I repeatedly followed the instructions of the manual but it still doesn't work. ) I'll try again today to triply ensure that I am not missing something.

At the moment none of my settings survive power on/off. I can save to favorites but the piano does not turn on to 'favorite' when powered on even though that option is chosen. If i manually try to select the favorites file nothing happens. I also have to reset the settings for phones every time I power on.

It makes the tweaking possibilities provided by the nice interface useless if you can't save the settings to a favorites that can survive a power on/off. Which means you are left with the factory (but nice) settings provided by the manufacturer.

(also posted in CA78/98 bug fixes thread)



Last edited by ADIRL; 02/02/18 11:40 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2710943
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by JoBert

Do you mean you couldn't save your changes on the CA67? Because on my CA97, I have no problems with that (as far as I am aware).


I had one loud key which I had toned down, but it didn't survive the save. I think it was the same with the CA97 in the shop. See the other thread on C78/98 bugs and improvements by another software engineer. As he says, it really shouldn't be that difficult to write a decent program.

I was unable to reproduce this on my CA97. By "toned down one loud key" I assume you meant an adjustment in the VT of the "Key Volume" of a specific key. I tested this just now and it survived a power down/up cycle without problems. This is what I did:

In VT advanced mode, "17 Key Volume", scroll right to "User", changed volume of C4 key to -50, pressed "Back", pressed "Store", got the "Storing ..." message. Switch off piano, switch on again, check setting. Still -50. Repeated the same to set back to 0, stored, still there after switch off/on.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: ADIRL] #2710951
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Not sure if this helps...I found out, that my CA98 has to be connected to a power source 24h. Even if turned off. I have no confirmation from KAWAI but there seems to be story of rechargeable battery that is necessary to store the last setting. If this battery is drained (it was on my CA98) the piano starts up on factory default independent what Favs are saved.
Since I charged it (about 3 hrs connected to wall socket) mine accepted the last setup.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Galuwen] #2711023
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
... my CA98 has to be connected to a power source 24h... there seems to be story of rechargeable battery that is necessary to store the last setting...

The last battery-backuped RAM configuration I saw was in my "Flash Gordon" Pinball born 1980 :-)

Seriously, I would be very surprised if Kaway did not use flash eproms to store the settings, like everybody else. It costs virtually nothing, can be rewritten thousand of times and holds the information for decades without power supply.

But battery-backuped RAM seems to be the only explanation for the symptoms Alexander describes... who knows?


Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2711035
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Originally Posted by paf
Originally Posted by Galuwen
... my CA98 has to be connected to a power source 24h... there seems to be story of rechargeable battery that is necessary to store the last setting...

The last battery-backuped RAM configuration I saw was in my "Flash Gordon" Pinball born 1980 :-)

Seriously, I would be very surprised if Kaway did not use flash eproms to store the settings, like everybody else. It costs virtually nothing, can be rewritten thousand of times and holds the information for decades without power supply.

But battery-backuped RAM seems to be the only explanation for the symptoms Alexander describes... who knows?


It could also explain some of the other problems that people have reported and why replacements haven't always worked. But as you say - who know? Perhaps Kawai James will enlighten us.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2711049
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If this was true...what a joke.
Please James, you need a serious team of beta testers. To me, such a product is not already in the market. I'll wait for the bugs to be fixed.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712215
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What I read here is actually stopping me from buying a CA98.
May some owner of a CA98 tell me if he is still satisfacted with his purchase and if he would buy it again?
Thanks

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712216
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Hey James, sorry for the off topic. I see there are no updates for pianos with no displays such as CN27, CA48, ES100, CA17, etc. Is this a coincidence or those instruments cannot be updated? I was thinking of CA48 as a nice alternative to a (wishful) VPC2, still having internal sounds and speakers when those might be needed but the lack of updates is bothering me.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: CyberGene] #2712218
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Hello CyberGene,

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Hey James, sorry for the off topic. I see there are no updates for pianos with no displays such as CN27, CA48, ES100, CA17, etc. Is this a coincidence or those instruments cannot be updated? I was thinking of CA48 as a nice alternative to a (wishful) VPC2, still having internal sounds and speakers when those might be needed but the lack of updates is bothering me.


I believe one reason for not making updates for the display-less models publicly available is because those models do not feature USB to Device functionality. Therefore, updating would need to be done via the rather less convenient method of sending a MIDI file to the instrument using a sequencer.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712227
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I believe one reason for not making updates for the display-less models publicly available is because those models do not feature USB to Device functionality. Therefore, updating would need to be done via the rather less convenient method of sending a MIDI file to the instrument using a sequencer.


Thanks James, that's what I needed to know. I don't care if it's cumbersome, I only needed to know they are capable of updates in case there's the need for that.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: gaelazzo] #2712276
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Originally Posted by gaelazzo
What I read here is actually stopping me from buying a CA98.
May some owner of a CA98 tell me if he is still satisfacted with his purchase and if he would buy it again?
Thanks


I'd definitely buy the CA98 again. For me, the favorites are persisted properly, so when the piano starts up, I just select between my custom headphone / speaker setting according to what I'm using - and that's it.
Apart from that, the action is great and so is the headphone sound. I expected a bit more from the speakers but they are fine as well.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: gaelazzo] #2712397
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Originally Posted by gaelazzo
What I read here is actually stopping me from buying a CA98.
May some owner of a CA98 tell me if he is still satisfacted with his purchase and if he would buy it again?
Thanks

If I had realised it, I would probably have hesitated between:

  • waiting for the firmware to have left the "alpha" state before buying a CA98 or
  • buying a CLP-685 instead.

Now that I own the CA98, I can live for a limited time with the bugs and the less than optimal ergonomy, but the fact that I'm not sure that they will be corrected in a near future worries me (the original firmware is dated from October 2017, i.e. already 4 months).

Last edited by paf; 02/07/18 04:48 PM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712406
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I haven’t seen Kawai keeping a software bug unaddressed. I understand your frustration guys but rest assured Kawai will fix those.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712455
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I'm really really happy with my CA78. I figured out what I was doing wrong with the the favorite settings which now work fine. The only thing bugging me is the fact that whenever I tweak things in the virtual technician and 'Store' those settings, I lose them if I turn the piano off and have to redo them each time. I do very little tweaking in the 'piano' setting options so it's not such a problem there. It would be nice to see an update that fixed that in the future along with the things Paf mentioned.

I haven't noticed a problem with the GUI restarting or crashing when using the headphones.

If I had one complaint, and its minor, is that playing through the speakers at full volume is quiter than what I expected/liked. But through the my Sennheiser RS 175 open backed headphones the sound is fantastic. Overall I am really pleased with the purchase and don't regret it for a minute.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: ADIRL] #2712471
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Hello ADIRL,

Originally Posted by ADIRL
I'm really really happy with my CA78.


That's good to hear - thank you for your positive feedback.

Quote
I figured out what I was doing wrong with the the favorite settings which now work fine.


I'm glad to read that the Favourites function is working correctly after all.

Originally Posted by ADIRL
The only thing bugging me is the fact that whenever I tweak things in the virtual technician and 'Store' those settings, I lose them if I turn the piano off and have to redo them each time.


May I ask you to confirm the procedure that you are following to adjust VT settings and store them, please?
Also, is this using 'Pianist' mode or 'Sound' mode?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712538
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello ADIRL,

Originally Posted by ADIRL
I'm really really happy with my CA78.


That's good to hear - thank you for your positive feedback.

Quote
I figured out what I was doing wrong with the the favorite settings which now work fine.


I'm glad to read that the Favourites function is working correctly after all.

Originally Posted by ADIRL
The only thing bugging me is the fact that whenever I tweak things in the virtual technician and 'Store' those settings, I lose them if I turn the piano off and have to redo them each time.


May I ask you to confirm the procedure that you are following to adjust VT settings and store them, please?
Also, is this using 'Pianist' mode or 'Sound' mode?

Kind regards,
James
x

Sorry James but sometimes I find you´re not clear enough.
With regards to the bold text in the quote, does it matter?
Are Pianist Mode custom settings capable of being used as default (user) sound, or not?
Is this function (saving settings as default sound) working properly in Sound Mode, and every user claiming it to be faulty is wrong, or not?
Does GUI freeze when plugin in headphones, or not?
Is there any battery requirement involved in this much, as suggested by some users, or not?

Thanks in advance for your clear reply.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712543
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All a bit odd.

You don't need many people holding off on buying a £3000 piano to make it worthwhile to get some more developers involved in fixing the bugs.

Have to say, like others, I do find this kind of thing off-putting. It speaks to general standards. Beta testing really just needs proper process.

That clearly hasn't happened here. So really Kawai should get their skates on and treat these kind of threads like gold dust, because people are actually telling them exactly what they need to fix to polish up their product and make it more saleable.

Maybe folk could chip in with both the bugs and what they would suggest as the fix, as well as suggested extra features, on this thread?

A comprehensive crowdsourced list might speed up the process and help Kawai James to at least forward on to those people at Kawai who can actually get actioned.


What is obvious to people on here might not be to some developer in Korea who most likely doesn't even play the piano!

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712544
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I could be wrong but I believe storing certain settings to survive power down requires a USB stick rather than them being stored internally. On my CA97 I think this is the case anyway.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Maartin] #2712548
02/08/18 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Maartin
I could be wrong but I believe storing certain settings to survive power down requires a USB stick rather than them being stored internally. On my CA97 I think this is the case anyway.

You must be thinking of something else. With the CA97, I have never encountered any setting that wouldn't survive a power down (if the "Store" option was properly selected to actually store it in internal memory in the first place), that instead you would have to store on a USB stick.
Now, if you want to do a factory reset, that's a different thing. Such a reset will of course reset all settings, so you first have to store them on a USB stick.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2712554
02/08/18 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Maartin
I could be wrong but I believe storing certain settings to survive power down requires a USB stick rather than them being stored internally. On my CA97 I think this is the case anyway.

You must be thinking of something else. With the CA97, I have never encountered any setting that wouldn't survive a power down (if the "Store" option was properly selected to actually store it in internal memory in the first place), that instead you would have to store on a USB stick.
Now, if you want to do a factory reset, that's a different thing. Such a reset will of course reset all settings, so you first have to store them on a USB stick.

Right, or if you want to export and share those settings woth other Kawai users, in a propietary format. But never to just store them into registrations!


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2712674
02/08/18 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
. May I ask you to confirm the procedure that you are following to adjust VT settings and store them, please?
Also, is this using 'Pianist' mode or 'Sound' mode?


I'll test again in both modes later on today James and let you know what happens.

Plus I made a mistake on what headphones I use. The RS 175 are my TV phones!
For the piano I use Sennheiser HD 598's which were highly recommended by various people here.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2712801
02/09/18 01:16 AM
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Hello mabraman,

Originally Posted by mabraman
Sorry James but sometimes I find you´re not clear enough.


Sorry about that. I will try to make amends with this post.

Originally Posted by mabraman
With regards to the bold text in the quote [is this using 'Pianist' mode or 'Sound' mode], does it matter?


Yes, I believe it does.

As you may be aware, Pianist mode and Sound mode utilise separate sound engines, with independent Virtual Technician settings (i.e. VT changes made in Pianist mode do not carry over to Sound mode and vice versa). The reason for my asking that question was to ascertain whether ADIRL was changing Virtual Technician settings in Pianist mode, Sound mode, or both.

Now, I had a chance to double-check a few functions on a CA78 (running the latest v1.0.2 firmware) earlier in order to respond to your other queries. Please note, these are based on my personal experiences playing the CA78 and should not be considered as an official response from Kawai. If Kawai customers are experiencing any issues with their instrument, they should contact their dealer and/or Kawai distributor in their country for assistance. Using the forum to report "bugs" is not recommended, and can be misleading to other visitors - especially if the "bug" is actually caused by user error, or a misunderstanding of how the function is intended to work.

Anyway, with that said, please allow me to respond to your queries.

Originally Posted by mabraman
Are Pianist Mode custom settings capable of being used as default (user) sound, or not?


In Pianist mode, I entered the Virtual Technician menu, maximised all the parameters, then selected 'Store to Sound'. Then I turned the instrument off and on again, entered the Virtual Technician menu, and saw that all of the parameters were maximised. I'm therefore confident that the Virtual Techician's 'Store to Sound' function is working as intended in Pianist mode.

Note however, that the Rendering Character (Classic, Romantic, Jazz, etc.), Resonance Depth (1~10), and Ambience (Type/Depth) settings are *not* stored, because they are outside of the Virtual Technician menu. In order to store those settings, the 'Store to Favourites' function at the bottom of the main menu should be used.

Originally Posted by mabraman
Is this function (saving settings as default sound) working properly in Sound Mode, and every user claiming it to be faulty is wrong, or not?


In Sound mode I tried the same operation: enter Virtual Technician Menu, maximise all the parameters, then select 'Store to Sound'. Upon powering the instrument off and on, then returning to the Virtual Technician menu, all the parameters were still maximised. I'm therefore confident that the Virtual Technician's 'Store to Sound' function is working as intended in Sound mode. It's important to note that in Sound mode, Virtual Technician settings are stored independently for each sound, so changes made (and stored) to the 'SK-EX Concert Grand' sound will not affect the 'SK-5 Grand Piano' sound.

Also note that - as with Pianist mode - the Reverb (Type/Depth) and Effects (Type/Depth) settings, along with addition options such as Dual/Split/4Hands and associated settings are *not* stored, because they are outside of the Virtual Technician menu. In order to store those settings, the 'Store to Favourites' function at the bottom of the main menu should be used.

So to summarise this point: in my experience, the Virtual Technician's 'Store to Sound' function works correctly in both Pianist mode and Sound mode. I hope this is clear.

Originally Posted by mabraman
Does GUI freeze when plugin in headphones, or not?


I connected my earbuds to the 1/8" jack 10 times, and then a set of headphones to the 1/4" jack another 10 times. I did not experience any GUI freeze.

Originally Posted by mabraman
Is there any battery requirement involved in this much, as suggested by some users, or not?


I don't believe so. Kawai DPs have used non-volatile memory to hold user settings and recordings etc. for many years.

I know that you didn't specifically raise this query, however I also tested Bluetooth Audio with the CA78 (using a pair of headphones), by pairing the instrument with my iPad Air (1st gen, latest iOS v11.2.5). Audio playback was flawless, using AudioStretch to scrub through a few MP3s, and the YouTube app watching a few videos. Just to make sure, I also tried pairing my old Android phone (Samsung S4 Mini I9195, running LineageOS 14.1-20180126), and was able to playback some MP3s stored on the device (through the headphones connected to the CA78), again with no discernible audio issues.

I hope this answers your queries, and clarifies that the functions I tested worked correctly.

Again, if Kawai customers are experiencing any issues with their instrument, they should always seek assistance through the official channels first. I can appreciate that at 8pm on a Saturday evening, if something's not working as expected, it's far more satisfying to post on a forum than wait until Monday morning to give tech. support a call. However, using the forum to report "bugs" is not recommended, and can be misleading to other visitors - especially if the "bug" is actually caused by user error, or a misunderstanding of how the function is intended to work.

Once again, I hope this is clear.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712814
02/09/18 03:52 AM
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Thanks to everyone and please excuse me for using this thread.
At the end I've resolved to buy a CA98. I'm going to place the order to a local dealer today.
I'll let you know when it comes!

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712821
02/09/18 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Once again, I hope this is clear.
Kind regards,
James
x

Clear as water to me, James, thank you very much for taking your time to answer each question.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2712944
02/09/18 03:14 PM
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Thank you James,

Your explanation helped clarify things.

I went ahead and changed the voicing of certain keys in VT, along with making various other changes, in sound mode, stored it and then turned off the piano. When I turned it back on the settings that I had changed were still changed . The same thing happened in the 'pianist' mode.

I don't know what I was doing wrong in the first place but I'm happy that everything is working as it should.

I regret making the post complaining about the settings in the first place when the only explanation can be is that I was the one making the error!

I've been practicing all morning and really enjoying the sound and feel of this piano.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2713357
02/11/18 04:56 AM
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Thanks to James for his efforts.
Originally Posted by Kawai James

... if Kawai customers are experiencing any issues with their instrument, they should always seek assistance through the official channels first... using the forum to report "bugs" is not recommended, and can be misleading to other visitors - especially if the "bug" is actually caused by user error, or a misunderstanding of how the function is intended to work.

Everything which is described as "bugs" in this forum has been reported a month ago to Kawai Europe (at least), directly and using their own forum. Kawai would have had enough time to explain to the users what they do wrong and how the functions work, or to give a rough timeline for correcting them if they acknowledge them as errors.

For example, I still do not understand if the problems are common to all users, or dependent on the hardware version of the piano, or on how stupid the user is. What is certain, is that they do not occur on one CAx8/NV10 only. Severall users complaint that the favorites do not work. The GUI crash on plugging headphones in has been observed by several users, in some cases even systematically. Maybe those problems affect only the first production batch?

Therefore, it should not be a surprise for Kawai that the questions are brought into public forums by users beginning to desperate.

Regards
Patrick

PS1: I have no problems with the "store to sound" function of the VT. I don't understand why these settings cannot be saved to favorites, but I think it is a feature, not a bug.

PS2: A new bug on my side: after "starting with favorites" (the only way favorites works on my CA98), the "saved to sound" VT settings are only restored after I touch "Pianist" or "Sound". Not as big a deal as the favorites, but also something I would describe as annoying.

Last edited by paf; 02/11/18 04:58 AM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2714130
02/13/18 09:56 PM
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Hello paf,

My apologies for this delayed response.

If you are experiencing any issues with your Kawai instrument, I would recommend contacting your dealer and/or Kawai distributor directly (email or phone). As you are based in Switzerland, I believe Kawai Europe will be happy to answer any queries you have.

With regards to your queries:

Originally Posted by paf
PS1: I have no problems with the "store to sound" function of the VT. I don't understand why these settings cannot be saved to favorites, but I think it is a feature, not a bug.


Please refer to page 80 of the CA98/CA78 owner's manual for list of settings that can be stored to Favourites memories, which includes all available Virtual Technician parameters. I checked the Favourites function the other day using different sound and Virtual Technician parameters in both Pianist and Sound modes and everything seemed to work correctly.

Originally Posted by paf
PS2: A new bug on my side: after "starting with favorites" (the only way favorites works on my CA98), the "saved to sound" VT settings are only restored after I touch "Pianist" or "Sound". Not as big a deal as the favorites, but also something I would describe as annoying.


I believe this is the correct behaviour. The "Save to Sound" VT settings are stored independently of Favourites. If you exit Favourites mode to enter Sound mode, the previously defined Sound mode settings will be recalled.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: ADIRL] #2714131
02/13/18 10:00 PM
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Hello ADIRL,

Thank you for your reply.

Originally Posted by ADIRL
Thank you James,

Your explanation helped clarify things.


That's good to hear, happy to help.

Originally Posted by ADIRL
I went ahead and changed the voicing of certain keys in VT, along with making various other changes, in sound mode, stored it and then turned off the piano. When I turned it back on the settings that I had changed were still changed . The same thing happened in the 'pianist' mode.

I don't know what I was doing wrong in the first place but I'm happy that everything is working as it should.


Yes, me too!

Enjoy your new piano! wink

Cheers,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2714612
02/15/18 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
...
Originally Posted by paf
PS2: A new bug on my side: after "starting with favorites" (the only way favorites works on my CA98), the "saved to sound" VT settings are only restored after I touch "Pianist" or "Sound". Not as big a deal as the favorites, but also something I would describe as annoying.

I believe this is the correct behaviour. The "Save to Sound" VT settings are stored independently of Favourites. If you exit Favourites mode to enter Sound mode, the previously defined Sound mode settings will be recalled.
...

Nice try but... if it was "by design" that you have to leave the favorites screen for the Pianist or Sound "saved to sound" settings to be active then... how does the piano know if I want to play in Pianist or Sound mode (and which instrument) before I press on the screen?

My logic says that when "starting with favorites", it should either:

  • start in the last used mode (Piano or Sound), with the last used instrument and the "saved to sound" settings OR
  • start in Pianist mode with the "saved to sound" settings, just like when not using "start with favorites" OR
  • not play at all until the user choses Pianist or Sound mode

Of course, the first solution would be the best and the last the worst.

Patrick

PS: Kawai Europe e-mailed me yesterday: they still cannot say anything concrete about the correction of the known problems

Last edited by paf; 02/15/18 06:04 PM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2714648
02/15/18 07:32 PM
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Hello paf,

Originally Posted by paf
Nice try


I'm glad that you appreciate my efforts to help.

Originally Posted by paf
if it was "by design" that you have to leave the favorites screen for the Pianist or Sound "saved to sound" settings to be active...


Please note that it's only necessary to exit Favorites mode if the 'Startup with Favorite' setting is enabled. By default, this setting is turned off and the instrument will startup in Pianist mode, using the 'Store to Sound' Virtual Technician settings (if applied). If Sound mode is then selected, the instrument will use the Virtual Technician settings stored for the currently selected sound. As noted previously, in Sound mode, each sound has its own, independent VT settings.

Originally Posted by paf
...how does the piano know if I want to play in Pianist or Sound mode (and which instrument) before I press on the screen?


I'm afraid I don't understand this part of your question. The instrument cannot predict which mode the user wishes to use.

Originally Posted by paf
My logic says that when "starting with favorites", it should either:

  • start in the last used mode (Piano or Sound), with the last used instrument and the "saved to sound" settings OR
  • start in Pianist mode with the "saved to sound" settings, just like when not using "start with favorites" OR
  • not play at all until the user choses Pianist or Sound mode


When the 'Startup with Favorites' setting is enabled, the instrument will pre-select the first (top-left) Favorite memory when turned on.
If this is a Pianist mode favorite it will be represented by a grand piano icon, if the memory is a Sound mode favorite it will be represented by a musical note icon.

I hope this clarifies things.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2714679
02/15/18 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Originally Posted by paf
...how does the piano know if I want to play in Pianist or Sound mode (and which instrument) before I press on the screen?


I'm afraid I don't understand this part of your question. The instrument cannot predict which mode the user wishes to use.


While I haven't tried this (as I haven't had much use for acoustic piano Sound Mode), the way I suspect Favorites to work is:

1. You can "save to favorites" in either Pianist or Sound mode menus..

2. Depending on whether you save from within Pianist or Sound mode menu, that is the "active selection" that is applied to the favorite.

3. When you select "Startup with Favorites," the piano will load the first Favorite in the stack, using either Pianist or Sound mode depending on the menu the Favorite was saved from.

A fairly easy way to test this would be to see if a favorite saved from within the Sound Mode menu starts up with the "reverb" icon in the upper right status bar -- AFAIK pianist mode doesn't have reverb (it's call ambiance there?).


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Gombessa] #2714681
02/15/18 10:28 PM
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Gombessa, yes, I believe that's how the Favorites function is intended to work.

Cheers,
James
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2714730
02/16/18 03:17 AM
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Sorry guys, it seems I was a little confused yesterday evening.

Yes, the CA98 knows at "startup with favorites" if I want to use "Pianist" or "Sound" - it just has to look at the type of the first favorite (which is, by the way, the only one which works on my CA98). So when I play while still in the grey startup favorites screen, the CA98 can choose the right piano type.

But I still see no reasons why at that moment the VT settings (saved with "save to sound") of the played piano are not yet recalled and I have to press on "Pianist" or "Sound" to activate them.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2714749
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Originally Posted by paf
But I still see no reasons why at that moment the VT settings (saved with "save to sound") of the played piano are not yet recalled and I have to press on "Pianist" or "Sound" to activate them.

That’s because the VT settings are also recalled from the startup favourite. Make sure that you save the favourite after changing the VT settings (and after doing the “store to sound”). Then the startup favourite should include the same VT settings as you’ve also saved to the sound.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2714750
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Hello paf,

Originally Posted by paf
But I still see no reasons why at that moment the VT settings (saved with "save to sound") of the played piano are not yet recalled and I have to press on "Pianist" or "Sound" to activate them.


I believe this is because the Favorites memories function independently to the Pianist mode/Sound mode 'Store to Sound' memories.

Please try the following example:

1. Maximise all of the Virtual Technician parameters in Pianist mode, exit the VT menu, then store this configuration as a Favorite.
2. Turn the instrument off/on to reset the Pianist mode back to the default settings (or whatever settings were previously stored using the Virtual Technician's 'Store to Sound' function).
3. Minimise all of the Virtual Technician parameters in Pianist mode and use the 'Store to Sound' function.
4. Select Favorites mode, and select the Favorite memory stored in step 1 - confirm that the VT parameters are maximised (e.g. damper noise is very loud).
5. Select Pianist mode (exiting Favorites mode) - confirm that the VT parameters are minimised (e.g. damper noise is off).
6. Select Favorites mode again and confirm that the VT parameters are maximised.
7. Select Pianist mode again, confirm that the VT parameters are minimised.
8. From the Pianist mode menu select 'Store to Favorite' and store this configuration as a separate Favorite memory.
9. Enter the Virtual Technician menu and restore the parameters to normal (e.g. default) values.
10. Select Favorites, alternate between the two extreme configurations.
11. Select Pianist mode again, confirm that the piano sound is back to normal (i.e. how it was configured in step 9).

I believe this example demonstrates how the Pianist mode memory functions independently of the Favorites memories.
The same is true of the Sound mode memory, however this has an extra layer of complexity as each sound has its own VT ('Store to Sound') memory.

I hope this is clear.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2715151
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
... Please try the following example: ...


Thank you very much James, what you describe works exactly that way on my CA98 and thanks to you I think I begin to understand the ways the favorites work.

So it seems that there are a few things which I didn't realise until now:

The VT settings saved in a favorite are only active as long as a) the GUI is in the favorites screen and b) this favorite has been selected. As soon as one returns to the "Pianist" or "Sound" screen, the CA98 defaults back to the settings "saved to sound".

But I don't see the use of being able to save the VT settings in the favorites but them being only active when the favorites screen is shown. Well, it seems to be designed that way and to work.

And I still don't understand how the sound settings are saved in the favorites. Or not. So far, for me, only the first favorite works, provided "startup with favorites" is ON.

Regards
Patrick

Last edited by paf; 02/17/18 05:01 PM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2715162
02/17/18 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by paf
But I don't see the use of being able to save the VT settings in the favorites but them being only active when the favorites screen is shown. Well, it seems to be designed that way and to work.

That's actually the same behavior as in the previous CA98/CA67 generation, where the favorites were called registration slots: The settings that were saved to a registration slot are only active as long as this slot is selected and active, which on the CA98/CA78 is equivalent to being on the favorites screen with the favorite selected. So in that regard, except for a change in terminology and a touch GUI, nothing has changed.

Originally Posted by paf
And I still don't understand how the sound settings are saved in the favorites. Or not. So far, for me, only the first favorite works, provided "startup with favorites" is ON.

I've recently written about my understanding of how this works (and where it is buggy and how to work around these bugs), in the NV10 thread (the NV10 has the same GUI software as the CA98 and CA78):
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2715090

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2715294
02/18/18 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
...
I've recently written about my understanding of how this works (and where it is buggy and how to work around these bugs), in the NV10 thread (the NV10 has the same GUI software as the CA98 and CA78):
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2715090

Great, thank you so much JoBert. You are good at reverse engineering...

So it seems to me that there are two things Kawai needs to address soon in the GUI of the CA78, CA98 and NV10:

  • Correct the bugs which make a not very intuitive functionality almost useless
  • Change the pilosophy of the favorites so that a piano player can understand their logicand make good use of them - an not let them as some programmer (who seems never to have used the piano) has implemented them.

And of course, some other improvements (see the other thead in this forum) would be welcome too


Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2715555
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Hello JoBert,

Originally Posted by JoBert
I've recently written about my understanding of how this works (and where it is buggy and how to work around these bugs), in the NV10 thread (the NV10 has the same GUI software as the CA98 and CA78):
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2715090


I responded to your post here.

To summarise, when checking the Favorites functions on a CA78 (v1.0.2) earlier, the top-left position Favorite was always selected automatically. As you'll see from the post linked above, I have asked to you send me a PM detailing how to reproduce the behaviour you're experiencing.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2721410
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@Kawai James. Just purchased a CA78 (being delivered next week). I just want to say, you have the patience of a saint. I imagine this thread is going to scare a lot of people that don't make it all the way through simply due to "user errors". I do wonder when reading this if Kawai needs a beginner/advanced mode. Food for thought. Just here to say thanks, and much respect.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: TheCallowPianist] #2721508
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Originally Posted by TheCallowPianist
@Kawai James. Just purchased a CA78 (being delivered next week). I just want to say, you have the patience of a saint. I imagine this thread is going to scare a lot of people that don't make it all the way through simply due to "user errors". I do wonder when reading this if Kawai needs a beginner/advanced mode. Food for thought. Just here to say thanks, and much respect.


Congratulations!

Some reported issues with the UI of CAx8 are indeed user related. However, I can tell that many of my "user errors" on the CA98 are a direct consequence of questionable UI design decisions. There are usability problems derived from the layout and structure of the UI combined with the navigation model (a mix of horizontal and vertical scrolling, swiping and "clicking") that have impact on multiple features, such as instrument selection in sound mode, layering and splitting, settings in pianist mode (character, resonance, ambience, ...), VT/setting editing, favourite management, just to name a few. In many cases, the current UI seems it was designed just to look nice. So, this is not about having a beginner/advanced mode but about having an UI designed for usability. Just have a look at a couple of well-designed smartphone apps to understand how complex inter-dependent settings can be easily managed on a small screen if the UI is properly designed. This is what the CAx8 fails to do.

However, I am quite sure who decides to invest on a CAx8 does it not because of the UI but due to the overall sound quality (especially in pianist mode) and keyboard action. But Kawai has an opportunity to improve and further differentiate the CAx8 and NV10 models if they do decide to improve the UI design instead making a couple of minor cosmetic changes. We just need Kawai James to help us securing that ;-)

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2721590
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Hi

I've bought a ca78 (not delivered yet) and when I tried the ca78 / ca98 at the shop I noticed

1) touch screen of the ca78 was noisy. When I was moving it a noise would come out of the speakers
2) ca98 an F# (F#4 or F#5) would cause something to vibrate inside the piano next to the volume control
3) ca78 first time I plugged in the headphones, the GUI restarted (did not give much importance then, as I thought I accidentally touched the power button)

I was told 1 + 2 were due to the fact they arrived in a bad packaging and they had been opened recently and they had to be serviced again.
But, I see that 3 is a common issue and it scares me (what if it is an electric issue and needs a new pcb?)

I start getting cold feet and cant remove from the back of my mind the idea there are some teething issues here, product is probably too new at this stage.

I think this forum is costing Kawai a lot of customers and they need to come back with better answers than "contact your reseller". Headphone bug has been reported a month ago and there has not been a single comment from Kawai.
I understand this is not the official Kawai bug reporting channel, but whether they like it or not, people are reading it and they better step up their game to show they are fully behind it. They could start a project on github and use its issue reporting for instance, with developers and engineers commenting.

Ignoring these reports wont make them go away.

I am probably going back to the shop and cancel it as long as it is still easy to do so.

A very sad Andrea


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: arc7urus] #2721609
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Originally Posted by arc_turus
In many cases, the current UI seems it was designed just to look nice.


One of the reasons I rejected the CA67 was because of the buggy software. Looks like they merely took that and tried to make it look nice rather than rewriting it.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2721650
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I agree. I wanted to buy a CA-98 but the Headphone Problem stopped me. An the "no Information" from Kawai did not help. Thank god for Kawai is the NU1X not flawless too... so I stay with my CLP-280 for the Moment.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2721744
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Originally Posted by Bit
I agree. I wanted to buy a CA-98 but the Headphone Problem stopped me. An the "no Information" from Kawai did not help. Thank god for Kawai is the NU1X not flawless too... so I stay with my CLP-280 for the Moment.

I plug and unplug headphones from my CA98 with the unit switched on almost on a daily basis and I have not yet experienced this problem once since I got the CA98 4 months ago. So, I am not sure if this is really a widespread issue or if there are just a couple of reported cases out there that got amplified via these forums.

Originally Posted by Colin Miles
One of the reasons I rejected the CA67 was because of the buggy software. Looks like they merely took that and tried to make it look nice rather than rewriting it.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this statement. The interface of the CAx8 is a glorified simulation of the button/menu-based interface of the older CAx3/5/7 models on a nice colour touchscreen. The new UI seems to ignore the fact that the CAx8 has no buttons anymore and that the layout and navigation principles on a touch-based device are not the same as on a button-based device. The result, as expected, is poor usability. Without a GUI designed for a touch-based device, the CAx8 (or newer models) will never take real advantage of this upgrade from the button-based interface. This is not about changing the existing functionality but thinking about the best way to present it to the user.

For example, selecting an instrument on the CAx5/7 requires pressing a category button followed by pressing the left/right buttons to navigate through the instruments within that category. On the CAx8 the sequence of steps to select an instrument are the same, and the UI follows the same layout and navigation mechanism as in CAx5/7 (e.g the left/right button press now replaced by a swipe left/right gesture). Such navigation is unusual on touch devices because there are more efficient and simpler ways to do it. The instrument selection in split/dual mode on the CAx8 is even more cumbersome due to the UI - it was easier on the CAx5/7, which is not a compliment. The VT/sound settings, Music, etc.. follow the same pattern. They are just copies of the old UI that take little advantage of the touch screen.

The new parts of the UI are the favourites screen and the pianist mode screen. The many issues with the favourites were already discussed in this thread. Once again the issue is not about functionality (favourites do work) but about the UI - one example, the UI does not allow to edit the settings of a saved favourite. And the pianist start screen is inconsistent with the rest of the UI - e.g. piano character types are selected using "buttons" while the rest of instruments are selected via swiping; resonance level is selected with a long-press on the start screen and long-presses are not used in any other part of the UI; ambience type/level are not in the pianist home screen nor in the VT settings. And I could go on...

Nevertheless, I am very happy with the CA98 and I would buy it again today even knowing all the issues with its UI. This DP is much more than its half-backed UI. Maybe Kawai eventually breaks free from old habits and releases a firmware update with an all new UI redesign ;-)


Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: arc7urus] #2721753
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Originally Posted by arc_turus
piano character types are selected using "buttons" while the rest of instruments are selected via swiping;

Tip: You don't have to use the arrow buttons to select rendering characters. You can just swipe left/right on the main screen (in the main/middle area of the screen).

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2721839
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I didn't experienced any freezing when plugging headphones at the store. Not a hum when navigating. The interface seemed easy to use, though I mostly played on Pianist Mode. Reverb was easy to find too, can't see why is it 'hidden' to someone.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2723254
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So

have not changed my mind in the end and just received my ca78.
So far so good (actually really good).

Only thing is that I had to update the software twice as the first time the 3rd step (the long one, btw, what is it doing for 2 hours) filed once.
But the I fully reformatted the memory stick and worked.


Kawai CA78
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Audetto] #2723403
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Originally Posted by Audetto
So

have not changed my mind in the end and just received my ca78.
So far so good (actually really good).

Only thing is that I had to update the software twice as the first time the 3rd step (the long one, btw, what is it doing for 2 hours) filed once.
But the I fully reformatted the memory stick and worked.


Congratulations! This is a trivial comment, but please do spend some time experimenting with the sound and VT settings as the sound quality of the CAx8 (especially the 98 due to the soundboard) greatly depends on properly adjusting it to the environment. Also read this thread to get insights on how to use the "favourites" functionality.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2723473
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maybe the crashes are a problem with specific headphones? Or are different Hardware Versions available?

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2723737
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Originally Posted by mabraman
I didn't experienced any freezing when plugging headphones at the store. Not a hum when navigating. The interface seemed easy to use, though I mostly played on Pianist Mode. Reverb was easy to find too, can't see why is it 'hidden' to someone.


the freezing when plugging headphones it is only in pianist mode not on sound mode.

Last edited by cocoherz; 03/23/18 12:02 PM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: cocoherz] #2723933
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Originally Posted by cocoherz


the freezing when plugging headphones it is only in pianist mode not on sound mode.


Could you upload a video of this issue?

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: TheCallowPianist] #2723937
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Originally Posted by TheCallowPianist
Originally Posted by cocoherz


the freezing when plugging headphones it is only in pianist mode not on sound mode.


Could you upload a video of this issue?


yes i can do it, but there is nothing special to see, just the screen goes off and on again wink

but it is strange, now i tried it again to connect the headphones to make video and it doesn't happen...

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2723946
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That's what happened to me, too (on the NV10). 100% reproduceable touchscreen crash when inserting headphone plug into the jack (both 1/8" and 1/4")). Then it stopped and has never happened again since.

I'm starting to think it has something that may happen only in the first few bootups after factory update?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2723954
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Interesting. As I wrote in the NV10 thread, I had this happening to me in the shop every time (of the total of three times) when I inserted the headphones plug: Once with a CA98 and twice with an NV10.
Then at home, with my own NV10, it hasn't happened once yet during the whole time I've owned it (initially with the same headphones as I had used in the shop, which however I had to replace since then, as they developed an unrelated fault).

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2723956
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Yep, my experience mirrored yours exactly, Jobert. About 5 consecutive crashes in the shop. I didn't really care about the issue because I don't use the headphone jack much with a VST and it doesn't affect the sound generator (you can still play while the screen is rebooting) so I bought that same unit expecting it to happen every time until some firmware it hardware fix is issued. But once I had it home, it has never crashed even once.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2723966
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I think it has nothing to do with the update. I first had 1.01 and thought that I did not make the new update because of these things with headphones which will happen after update. I had no problems with the plug-in the headphones. when I once plugged in the headphones in the pianist mode (played mostly sound mode) the touchscreen went off. I thought so, ok, seems to be only in the pianist mode and then I can also update to 1.02 if the problem anyway already is there.so i made the update, but never tried headphones till today. And today it does not happen anymore.

But for me it isn't a problem, I have other worries ... i just want to play with a good sound. i don't mind the touchscreen ...

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2734128
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So I have contacted Kawai Europe about Favorite asking how I can inspect the settings of a Favorite in order to

1) know what values have been saved
2) use it as a base for further changes

I have reported as well some apparently random settings being selected at times and they told me there is an issue if one starts the piano with a Favorite and then deletes it.
The will do something about it.

But this was only a side issue, my main concern being 1 / 2 above.

The reply was

1) the use case they had in mind is: comparison between "current settings" and a "favorite", which requires that when one moves off the favorite page, the previous selected settings (I call them "current") are restored.

Fair enough, it is valid use case, not my top priority but understandable.

2) so I asked if they would add a button in the favorite tab to store the currently selected favorite into the "current" settings for inspection. They answered

"the structure of the CA78/CA98 is not designed for such kind of functionality"

which sounds to me like one of these sales script and which I interpret as

"sorry CA78 / CA98 are out, no more development, we will probably fix major issues, no more"

So in the era of Smart Phones, if you want to know what is saved in a Favorite, you have to write the values on a piece of paper, unless you can tell from the sound.

Maybe, if enough people ask for it, they will reconsider the decision.


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2734137
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Audetto, I fear that your interpretation of Kawai Europe's response could be spot on, i.e. that the drivel about "the structure is not designed for it" (and it *is* drivel, because of course it would be possible to add such a feature to the software, especially since the 67/97 generation still had it, it was called "Open Registration" in the menu) is indeed just code-speak for "sorry, that's how it is, we are not interested in fixing this as we are already working on the next generation, so deal with it". frown

I *fear* that it could be like this, but I *hope* that maybe instead it is just code-speak for "sorry, but we here in Europe are not involved in the actual development, so we don't really know what fixes/changes are planned, if any, and even if we did, we are totally not allowed to speak about upcoming changes before they are officially released, so please understand that I have to give you a noncommittal line about "structure bla bla not designed bla bla"..."

That would at least leave a tiny sliver of hope... frown

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2734228
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Audetto, I fear that your interpretation of Kawai Europe's response could be spot on, i.e. that the drivel about "the structure is not designed for it" (and it *is* drivel, because of course it would be possible to add such a feature to the software, especially since the 67/97 generation still had it, it was called "Open Registration" in the menu) is indeed just code-speak for "sorry, that's how it is, we are not interested in fixing this as we are already working on the next generation, so deal with it". frown

I *fear* that it could be like this, but I *hope* that maybe instead it is just code-speak for "sorry, but we here in Europe are not involved in the actual development, so we don't really know what fixes/changes are planned, if any, and even if we did, we are totally not allowed to speak about upcoming changes before they are officially released, so please understand that I have to give you a noncommittal line about "structure bla bla not designed bla bla"..."

That would at least leave a tiny sliver of hope... frown


Hello,

I am thinking about upgrading my beloved CS11 to a Novus NV10. On my CS11 I use „open registration“ all the time to make small refinements to different VT settings (including to different single keys) and then to store it back to the same registration slot or a new copy to a different registration slot.
This „open registration“ feature is therefore very important for me.

If I would not be able to adjust some VT parameters of one favorite and then store them back to the same or a new favorite in the Novus NV10 (CA98/CA78) than this would be a HUGE downgrade for me (at least concerning the software).

Maybe Kawai James can clarify this and state that I am wrong and that this or a similar functionality is still possible (which I really hope) on the new devices ( Novus NV10, CA98, CA78).

Thanks in advance
Daniel


KAWAI CS11 (sold KAWAI CA 97), KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand piano (sold SCHIMMEL acoustic upright)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2734232
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Daniel, I know you were hoping for a "good news" to the contrary from James, but I can assure you that there is indeed no function similar to "Open Registration" in the current NV10/CA98/CA78 software. The only thing you can edit for an existing favorite is its name and its position in the list.

Fortunately for me, editing favorites is, at least currently, not important, so I can live with this regression, although I find it annoying. But if this feature is important for you, you should probably wait to see if there will ever be an update. Or if none materializes, maybe sit out this generation (hoping that the next generation again has this feature).

Personally, I think this was simply forgotten and overlooked when the old button based interface was converted into the new touch interface, and no one noticed until the release. The question is, if this mistake will ever be rectified or not. And if yes, then in this generation or only in the next?

Last edited by JoBert; 05/05/18 07:06 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2734367
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Daniel, I know you were hoping for a "good news" to the contrary from James, but I can assure you that there is indeed no function similar to "Open Registration" in the current NV10/CA98/CA78 software. The only thing you can edit for an existing favorite is its name and its position in the list.

Fortunately for me, editing favorites is, at least currently, not important, so I can live with this regression, although I find it annoying. But if this feature is important for you, you should probably wait to see if there will ever be an update. Or if none materializes, maybe sit out this generation (hoping that the next generation again has this feature).

Personally, I think this was simply forgotten and overlooked when the old button based interface was converted into the new touch interface, and no one noticed until the release. The question is, if this mistake will ever be rectified or not. And if yes, then in this generation or only in the next?


I would say that being unable to edit and review the content of existing favourites makes favourite management almost useless For example, if one saves in a favourite the results of adjusting the tone or volume of individual keys in the VT and then wants to make any changes to the settings, then the only solution is to restart from scratch. It is also not possible to reuse existing settings.

The underlying issue is not some "bug" in favourites management but the fact that the current settings management lacks clear and consistent use cases. For example, in "pianist mode" the resonance level and tonal character are configured on the start screen, the Ambience level and depth is on the top level of the settings menu (it is not on the start screen, not on the VT settings and not on the Sound settings). Then there are separate VT settings, Sound settings and general settings. These settings can stored and recalled using different mechanisms (store to sound, favourites, default save) which mainly lead to unexpected or inconsistent results as already described in multiple posts on this and other threads on the forum. As such, it is for me difficult to accept that Kawai will not rectify these issues on the current generation of DPs. We are discussing the usability of Kawai's flagship DPs and not of some entry level keyboard!

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2734466
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Not sure how much is going to help, but if anybody with this usability issue writes to Kawai, then they might react to it.

I don't know what Kawai James roles is here, and given that this is not an official Kawai forum, I think it is important to give feedback directly to Kawai.

I have found a couple of emails at this page http://www.kawai.co.uk/contact.htm


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Audetto] #2734481
05/06/18 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Audetto
Not sure how much is going to help, but if anybody with this usability issue writes to Kawai, then they might react to it.

I don't know what Kawai James roles is here, and given that this is not an official Kawai forum, I think it is important to give feedback directly to Kawai.

I have found a couple of emails at this page http://www.kawai.co.uk/contact.htm


Did that already. I have sent a list of UI usability issues to Kawai Global and Kawai Europe some 4 months ago. I can update the list and resend it to Kawai. The only reply I got was “we have received your message and are looking into it”. The list includes several of the topics discussed here related to the settings and favourites management and also related to instrument selection in sound mode, music recorder and music player. These issues can be addressed by changes to the UI design and UI use cases and do not require any changes core system/sound engine (as you know, the UI and the core system are updated separately).

I emphasize that I am very happy with the CA98 and would buy it again today. I have never experienced any kind of technical problems during its almost 6 months of usage. However I find it very hard to accept that the UI in the flagship CAx8 and Novus models was released with such a design and, worse, was not yet properly updated.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: arc7urus] #2734524
05/06/18 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus


Did that already. I have sent a list of UI usability issues to Kawai Global and Kawai Europe some 4 months ago. I can update the list and resend it to Kawai. The only reply I got was “we have received your message and are looking into it”. The list includes several of the topics discussed here related to the settings and favourites management and also related to instrument selection in sound mode, music recorder and music player.

In the short period I had a CA67 there were two problems. Loud keys which Kawai said were a feature(!) and software which clearly needed a redesign and rewrite. Adding a GUI on top of that doesn't help and if the same people are trying to address the problems you have raised I think you may have a long wait.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2734634
05/06/18 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by arc7urus


Did that already. I have sent a list of UI usability issues to Kawai Global and Kawai Europe some 4 months ago. I can update the list and resend it to Kawai. The only reply I got was “we have received your message and are looking into it”. The list includes several of the topics discussed here related to the settings and favourites management and also related to instrument selection in sound mode, music recorder and music player.

In the short period I had a CA67 there were two problems. Loud keys which Kawai said were a feature(!) and software which clearly needed a redesign and rewrite. Adding a GUI on top of that doesn't help and if the same people are trying to address the problems you have raised I think you may have a long wait.


Hello,

I think I know the CA67/CA97/CS11 software well, understand it and I am perfectly fine with it. What really bothers me is the possible downgrade in software functionality in the CA78/CA98/NV10 concerning the changing of VT values in favorite settings, which is possible in the CA67/CA98/CS11 software via „open registration“.

Daniel


KAWAI CS11 (sold KAWAI CA 97), KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand piano (sold SCHIMMEL acoustic upright)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: danielp11] #2734673
05/06/18 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by danielp11
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by arc7urus


Did that already. I have sent a list of UI usability issues to Kawai Global and Kawai Europe some 4 months ago. I can update the list and resend it to Kawai. The only reply I got was “we have received your message and are looking into it”. The list includes several of the topics discussed here related to the settings and favourites management and also related to instrument selection in sound mode, music recorder and music player.

In the short period I had a CA67 there were two problems. Loud keys which Kawai said were a feature(!) and software which clearly needed a redesign and rewrite. Adding a GUI on top of that doesn't help and if the same people are trying to address the problems you have raised I think you may have a long wait.


Hello,

I think I know the CA67/CA97/CS11 software well, understand it and I am perfectly fine with it. What really bothers me is the possible downgrade in software functionality in the CA78/CA98/NV10 concerning the changing of VT values in favorite settings, which is possible in the CA67/CA98/CS11 software via „open registration“.

Daniel


It will be indeed a loss of functionality if Kawai does not update the usability of the UI. But I believe the benefits of upgrading to an NV10 will outweigh the UI issues.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2735554
05/10/18 03:54 PM
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I've exchanged more (disappointing) emails with Kawai (carefully thought through, priority was the Pianist mode, most users don't need it... and so on).

Anyway, I think they really consider the Favorites a "feature".

And I was trying to understand why they had duplicated the Metronome and the Recorder in the Favorite tab,
What is the point? We already have 2 of each. And the answer confirms the Favorite tab is a world apart.

If the Metronome & Recorder were not duplicated, then they would have been completely unusable with a Favorite.
So that should have rang a bell: what about all the other features (other than Metronome and Recorder), why were they considered 2nd class citizens and have not been duplicated? This arbitrary decision, to limit what is available from a Favorite to these 2 features is really a consequence of the (IMHO bad) decision to "ring fence" the Favorite.

So, unfortunately, this seems to have been implemented correctly, and it falls under the category of convoluted and short sighted design (I am a software developer myself and I know how rare a commodity is the "Principle of least astonishment").


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2735811
05/11/18 06:27 PM
05/11/18 06:27 PM
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Referring to myself here:
Originally Posted by JoBert
Daniel, I know you were hoping for a "good news" to the contrary from James, but I can assure you that there is indeed no function similar to "Open Registration" in the current NV10/CA98/CA78 software. The only thing you can edit for an existing favorite is its name and its position in the list.

Well, turns out that there actually is a way how you can edit the settings in an existing favorite!

Granted, it's an ugly and convoluted workaround, but it is better than nothing (until sometime? ever? dare-we-hope? Kawai maybe re-adds this functionality in a firmware update).

I've described it in detail in the Novus thread, in this post:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2735809

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2735865
05/12/18 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Referring to myself here:
Originally Posted by JoBert
Daniel, I know you were hoping for a "good news" to the contrary from James, but I can assure you that there is indeed no function similar to "Open Registration" in the current NV10/CA98/CA78 software. The only thing you can edit for an existing favorite is its name and its position in the list.

Well, turns out that there actually is a way how you can edit the settings in an existing favorite!

Granted, it's an ugly and convoluted workaround, but it is better than nothing (until sometime? ever? dare-we-hope? Kawai maybe re-adds this functionality in a firmware update).

I've described it in detail in the Novus thread, in this post:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...wai-novus-nv10-hands-on.html#Post2735809


Thank you very much JoBert!!

Daniel


KAWAI CS11 (sold KAWAI CA 97), KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand piano (sold SCHIMMEL acoustic upright)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2735866
05/12/18 01:48 AM
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What I can tell is that the very limited possibility of the favorites makes no difference between pianist mode and sound mode. You can see different backgrounds on the favorite ICON between Pianist and Sound setting. It would be great if the stored settings could be edited or checked.

Also rewind or navigation of mp3 and wave files would be great.

Or full german keyboard.

Would I buy it again:

From keyboard, sound, soundboard effect (everything that matters whilst playing) it is by far the best Piano on the market for me. Buy again? ROFL! It is a MUST HAVE!!!!! Never ever I played one of my CA's (93,95,97) as much in the first 4 months.

Alexander

Buy again? 😂😂👌

Last edited by Galuwen; 05/12/18 02:01 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2735867
05/12/18 01:54 AM
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To the possibility to edit favorites: Please be aware that changing position to place 1 to make it "startup setting" does not work. Only factory reset or deleting all favorites work.

Galuwen

Last edited by Galuwen; 05/12/18 02:02 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Galuwen] #2735870
05/12/18 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
To the possibility to edit favorites: Please be aware that changing position to place 1 to make it "startup setting" does not work. Only factory reset or deleting all favorites work.

Galuwen

Fortunately, it does work without a reset! smile

The information that you need a factory reset (or need to delete all favorites) is old information from an older post that I wrote. It was later pointed out by Kawai James that you actually don't need a reset, i.e. you can reorder the favorites and put a new favorite into first place, and still have this new favorite work correctly as a startup favorite. The thing is, you have to do this with a specific sequence of steps (which is also used in the "edit favorites" procedure I linked above) or it won't work. That sequence is as follows:

On the favorites screen:
  • Tap burger menu icon
  • Switch Startup With Favorite OFF
  • Tap Edit Favorite
  • Reorder and put desired new favorite in first place
  • Tap "<" in top left
  • Close with "X" at bottom
  • Make sure the new first favorite is the selected one (this is important!)
  • Tap burger menu icon again
  • Switch Startup with Favorite ON

And since the reordering works with this sequence, the "procedure" for favorite editing (as linked above) also works, and afterwards you can still properly restore your desired startup favorite without the need for a reset.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Galuwen] #2735886
05/12/18 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
Never ever I played one of my CA's (93,95,97) as much in the first 4 months.


Since you seem to buy every new model (where do you find the money?), in a couple of years it will be fixed.
Other people might be living with it for the rest of their lives...


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Audetto] #2735889
05/12/18 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Audetto
Originally Posted by Galuwen
Never ever I played one of my CA's (93,95,97) as much in the first 4 months.


Since you seem to buy every new model (where do you find the money?), in a couple of years it will be fixed.
Other people might be living with it for the rest of their lives...



To be honest I trade them back and buy a new one :-).

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2737574
05/18/18 01:52 AM
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I got an anser from Kawai Europe yesterday, 5 months after contacting them the first time (and several times inbetween).

About the crash when plugging headphones in
Kawai acknowledges the problem and says it is a hardware problem on some CA98. They now have a solution and ask me to contact my dealer to arrange a "repair".

About the GUI
Kawai do as if they were not aware of a problem and ask me what does not work correctly (but I have been trying several times in the last 5 months to explain it to them).

My impression is that they try hard to kill the usability question by determining that the DP reacts exactly as described in the manual (which it might be), and this is perfectly OK for them.

And that they try to ignore the fact that the ergonomy of the GUI of the CA78/CA98/NV10 ist terrible, that the favorites function as implemented and documented almost useless, and that they probably would sell more of their high-end DPs if they improved the GUI a very little bit.

I can't understand that this company is widely considered to have an excellent service. It might be true for adressing hardware issues, but for software, they are on the level of Microsoft 30 years ago.

Patrick

Last edited by paf; 05/18/18 01:53 AM.

Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2737681
05/18/18 12:35 PM
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I am a recent newcomer to the CA98 model - having only recently changed (upgraded ????) from a Kawai CS-10 Digital Piano.

As a Pianist and an Electronics Engineer, there are various aspects of this model that I am really less than happy about
(I currently have another Thread on this Forum regarding one of the areas of concern on this model).

Regarding the GUI interface, I can say that although it does feature more up to date technology - using a Touch Screen (instead of old fashioned buttons !!), the operation of it for a Pianist is FLAWED IN MANY WAYS.

Now as I understand it, the display itself is a product designed and manufactured by Onkyo of Japan. It is actually a Digital Music Player and based around the Android Operating System.

Now the BIG question is: How much knowledge does Kawai actually have about this Player and programming it, or are they reliant on Onkyo to design/Debug the software for them ???????????

Now of course, Onkyo do not make Pianos and so maybe dont have a full undestanding of how the Softare shuld have been implimented in the first place (I guess the overal concept was discussed between the collaboration of Kawai and Onkyo). But for Kawai, maybe this was a bit of leap in the dark for them, moving away from switches and buttons, to a Touch Sceen device which needs totally different skill sets to implement (Mobile Phone Manufacturers of course have this pretty much licked these days).

And what happens when you dont get things right ??

Well from my own point of view, I really dont even want to see a Display at all on my Piano - I just want to play some nice music. But when I do need it, it should be bug-free and totally intuitive.
And yes of course, it should have had for example, a completely "Open Registration" for changing and storing ANY variable parameters, and adding a beastly FAVORITES screen as a substitute simply is not acceptable.

But on the other hand, I would like to aplaud Kawai as well for taking the Digital Piano forward in evolution - using more modern sampling techniques and Technologies.

However, it is possible that pressures to get this model released to market, that there are MANY areas of this design that should have been looked into first, and to make the necessary improvements and changes to the design BEFORE it was released.

It is my own personal belief that the CA98 piano "COULD HAVE BEEN" so much better.

At the end of the day this is not a "CHEAP and CHEARFUL" Piano, and not to forget, the owners of the NV-10 Novus model - which seems to have many of the same issues (and on a piano costing as much as a small car).

So, come on KAWAI - we love your products but YOU HAVE TO LISTEN AND IMPROVE ...........................

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2737822
05/18/18 11:57 PM
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You have to be realistic: They can't, the maybe would want to and as it is obvious now from PAFs experience they don't will.

KAWAI James is silent on this point since day one.

So to be realistic: 😫 only possibility is to return the piano(s) as some are doing in the moment here in Germany.

Or live with a GUI w/o proper localisation, with an WAV /MP3 player where you not even can rewind or navigate.

No editing or reading out adjusted values.

No navigation in menus w/o changing values by error,...

For me I will stick with my CA98 even with the fact that I can only play it with external Amplifier and high end speakers behind me and that I have to turn it off before plugging in headphones.

Wrap some gaffer tape around it and go on as we say in Germany :-).

And as soon as a new model (maybe with the good old cheek block button display) will be released hopefully I have saved enough money until then and - as we also say in Germany - take the money in hand if you want quality.

Too drastic? To harsh? Now be realistic too....You won't find a better sounding and working DP in this (cheap) class compared with let's say Yam..haha. And to say it clear: Don't think you won't have problems with other manufacturers 2.

Galuwen.

Last edited by Galuwen; 05/19/18 12:02 AM.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2737845
05/19/18 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by paf
I got an anser from Kawai Europe yesterday, 5 months after contacting them the first time (and several times inbetween).

We've so far only had silence from Kawai regarding the UI problems in the CA78/98/NV10 generation and what one reads here about the replies from Kawai Europe regarding these problems gives me the impression that this too is silence - only with more words.

My guess is that Kawai Europe either is not allowed to say anything, or they are just as out-of-the-loop regarding the development and plans for the UI (if any) as we are, so they are forced to come out with platitudes and standard phrases when confronted with an insistent customer who asks for a reply.

From what I've seen of the UI (in my NV10), I'm convinced that this software is, like so many other software products world wide, the lamentable result of one of these cases, where an uninformed management made the cardinal mistake that you can do in a software project: Namely that of imposing a fixed deadline by fiat. (Contrary to all the accumulated knowledge that tells us over and over again, that this is not possible. There have been books written about this as far back as in the 80s, but it still happens far too often.)

The CA78/98/NV10 UI has all the signs of such a project:
  • Illogical design choices (that could have been fixed/redesigned with more time)
  • Cut corners (features left out or "forgotten" that were available in a previous version)
  • Not enough debugging (and that is quite obvious, because you don't have to dig deep to find the bugs, any kind of even a half assed testing and debugging cycle should have caught many of them)

All these are hallmarks of a software project with an fixed deadline that was decreed by fiat by upper management, without any regards to how the project was going, or what its current state was.

The question now is: Will Kawai own up to this and how will they handle this?

Right now, even despite this disastrous train wreck of a software release, Kawai still has a lot of good will and fans of their pianos. At least here on the forum, but I expect also elsewhere. The CA78/98 and also the NV10 are still being recommended to people asking for advice, even by forum members who are fully aware of these problems.

Imagine how, based on this still existing good will, Kawai's reputation could soar if, in a few months or so, they come out with a software version 2.0 that fixes these problems!

Or on the other hand, how it could crash and burn, if they continued with their wall of silence and simply let the buyers of the current CA78/98/NV10 generation hang out to dry, with all fixes only coming to the next generation (if any - who knows, if they really are in denial they might not even fix these problems in the next generation. Now that would be a catastrophe for their reputation!).

So, what's it gonna be, Kawai?

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: JoBert] #2737855
05/19/18 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert


From what I've seen of the UI (in my NV10), I'm convinced that this software is, like so many other software products world wide, the lamentable result of one of these cases, where an uninformed management made the cardinal mistake that you can do in a software project: Namely that of imposing a fixed deadline by fiat. (Contrary to all the accumulated knowledge that tells us over and over again, that this is not possible. There have been books written about this as far back as in the 80s, but it still happens far too often.)


I doubt if it was a fixed deadline that is the problem, but the original poor design before they tacked the GUI on it. Can't see it being fixed without a complete rewrite and by a different programmer/systems analyst. I rather suspect that original person(s) had little experience.

Last edited by Colin Miles; 05/19/18 04:11 AM. Reason: additional comment

Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2737940
05/19/18 11:27 AM
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This CA78, 98 release has every sign of rushing an unfinished product out the door. I even joked about this right on the announcement thread here ... To me, this pianist mode thingy was the telltale. The missing features, the inconsistencies was obvious. Yet some people were blinded by the new shiny objects and chose to believe otherwise as special. Now the excitements finally worn out. Some defend the annoyances as acceptable to justify their purchases. Others get vocal and demand a 2.0 software release. It will be nice if Kawai actually provides a "service pack" but don't count on it. More likely CA79, 99 will be the fix but I like to be surprised.


Yamaha U1 | Roland FP90+JBL LSR305
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Galuwen] #2738004
05/19/18 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
Too drastic? To harsh? Now be realistic too....You won't find a better sounding and working DP in this (cheap) class compared with let's say Yam..haha. And to say it clear: Don't think you won't have problems with other manufacturers 2.
Galuwen.


I think the ones laughing here are Yamaha, Roland & Co. who will have their sales pitch ready.

I know Kawai James won't say a word about this, I only hope he forwards all feedback from this Forum to someone with an open mind.
There are 100s of people providing feedback, invaluable feedback which gets ignored.

At some points these reviews will start biting the sales (and don't forget all the positive missed).

And, but this might sound like a heresy to Kawai who told me they will not publish the MIDI SysEx to control the settings: put the source code on github and most of your bugs will get fixed in no time, for free (btw, by people who can't even run the app).


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2738133
05/20/18 02:38 AM
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Does anyone know if there is any way to lower the volume of a particular key; I have CA78, the D5 and #D5 are louder than others. They 'jump out' at you when playing a delicate piece and tend to put you of a bit.

I have played around with the GUI a bit, but can't seem to find an option to adjust individual notes.


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: ArtlessArt] #2738136
05/20/18 02:46 AM
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Marcel M] #2738141
05/20/18 03:15 AM
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Ahh Thanks for that smile I should have looked more carefully.


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2738549
05/22/18 01:22 AM
05/22/18 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Can't see it being fixed without a complete rewrite and by a different programmer/systems analyst. I rather suspect that original person(s) had little experience.

In my opinion and according to my modest software development experience, the worst problem (saving the settings, especially the awful favorites) cannot be difficult to solve and this could be done at very little cost. Even the worst spaghetti-like code can be patched and I don't think that it needs more than a patch to solve my problem with it.

Regarding other things like swiching the screen completely off or crashing when inserting headphones or USB Sticks, I see more potential problems, especially if the hardware has not been designed accordingly. And we have some reasons to think that the hardware of the GUI hast some shortcomings. But that doesn't mean the it can not or should not be fixed!

I'm very sad about the attitude of Kawai. I don't understand it from a technical point of view and even less from a commercial point of view, If Kawai was interested in selling more of they most expensive DP and saving their reputation, it think they could:
  • at the minimum, fix the GUI code to make it less bad
  • at the maximum, put the GUI source code in the public domain and publish the specification of the interface to the sound engine. Every piano-playing geek would then buy these DP and we would get the best GUI in the DP world in a few weeks time. Of course, Kawai can't do it if their code is so badly written they are ashamed about it.

Last edited by paf; 05/22/18 01:24 AM.

Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2738566
05/22/18 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by paf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Can't see it being fixed without a complete rewrite and by a different programmer/systems analyst. I rather suspect that original person(s) had little experience.

In my opinion and according to my modest software development experience, the worst problem (saving the settings, especially the awful favorites) cannot be difficult to solve and this could be done at very little cost. Even the worst spaghetti-like code can be patched and I don't think that it needs more than a patch to solve my problem with it.
[/list]

Well I have perhaps a little more experience and I think that you will find that if the design is faulty patching can make it worse by introducing unforeseen errors. Think MSDOS and Windows.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: ArtlessArt] #2738569
05/22/18 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ArtlessArt
Does anyone know if there is any way to lower the volume of a particular key; I have CA78, the D5 and #D5 are louder than others. They 'jump out' at you when playing a delicate piece and tend to put you of a bit.

I have played around with the GUI a bit, but can't seem to find an option to adjust individual notes.


Hi! You can indeed regulate the volume and other parameters of each individual key as pointed out already. However, I hear no volume difference between those particular two keys and the neighboring keys on pianist mode and with the pianos in sound mode. I suggest you
check the actual note-on velocity of those keys to rule out any sensor-related issue. You can check the note-on velocity by connecting the CA78 via Bluetooth or USB to an iOS/Android device (free MIDI Wrench app on iOS) or to a PC (download MIDIOX or MIDI Monitor).

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Colin Miles] #2738574
05/22/18 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by paf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Can't see it being fixed without a complete rewrite and by a different programmer/systems analyst. I rather suspect that original person(s) had little experience.

In my opinion and according to my modest software development experience, the worst problem (saving the settings, especially the awful favorites) cannot be difficult to solve and this could be done at very little cost. Even the worst spaghetti-like code can be patched and I don't think that it needs more than a patch to solve my problem with it.
[/list]

Well I have perhaps a little more experience and I think that you will find that if the design is faulty patching can make it worse by introducing unforeseen errors. Think MSDOS and Windows.


The complexity of the software on these DPs lies entirely on the "sound engine", not on the UI. The UI software does nothing else than managing and displaying a set of parameters while interfacing with the sound engine. On these models, the touch display and UI are also running over some version of Android (some of you may have noticed the Android logo while updating the software/firmware). This means that the developers have a number of UI assets already available to support development. I have seen GUI software more complex than this one (i.e. with more use cases and dependencies between the use cases) being fully designed, developed, tested and incrementally refined over a period of 3-4 weeks by a small team of _experienced_ developers.

So, this is not about complexity, cost or development, or time in my opinion but just the repeat of a very classical story in software development. These major DP manufacturers have extensive expertise in DP engineering and in the development of dedicated software around the sound engine. However, the engineering teams working closely with the DPs likely have zero experience developing user interfaces - the development of apps and software lies in different units of such companies or may be even be contracted externally. So, the DP engineering "expert" team believes that programming an entirely new piece of software (the UI in this case) requires absolutely no additional knowledge - after all it is just programming some lines of code. So, the DP experts try to deal with the new software product by themselves with the knowledge they have (for some reason, the new touch screen interface does nothing else than emulating the old button-based interface). After the "expert" team has struggled with the UI development for some months, management starts demanding the product to be released to avoid further costs and delays. At this point it is already too late to bring in external competencies and to design a proper UI. And then we have this GUI released to the market. The worse part of this story is that it will be very hard to ever have a full redesign of the product . Why? Not because of development cost or time. Just because that would mean that the team of DP "experts" would have to admit failure and hand over the work to some other software development team that are not even "DP engineers". I would be surprised if that ever happens...

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: arc7urus] #2738592
05/22/18 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus


Hi! You can indeed regulate the volume and other parameters of each individual key as pointed out already. However, I hear no volume difference between those particular two keys and the neighboring keys on pianist mode and with the pianos in sound mode. I suggest you
check the actual note-on velocity of those keys to rule out any sensor-related issue. You can check the note-on velocity by connecting the CA78 via Bluetooth or USB to an iOS/Android device (free MIDI Wrench app on iOS) or to a PC (download MIDIOX or MIDI Monitor).


Hi arc7urus,

I used Pianoteq for the note-on velocities, and it doesn't seem to be a sensor related issue. Also using headphones confirmed there are no differences in the volume when compared to neighbouring keys. It must be something further along the chain, i.e. speakers emphasising a certain note or two. There are also no differences in volume of D5 and D#5 when using Pianoteq, outputting through JBL 305's (with local sound switched off).


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: ArtlessArt] #2738636
05/22/18 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtlessArt
Originally Posted by arc7urus


Hi! You can indeed regulate the volume and other parameters of each individual key as pointed out already. However, I hear no volume difference between those particular two keys and the neighboring keys on pianist mode and with the pianos in sound mode. I suggest you
check the actual note-on velocity of those keys to rule out any sensor-related issue. You can check the note-on velocity by connecting the CA78 via Bluetooth or USB to an iOS/Android device (free MIDI Wrench app on iOS) or to a PC (download MIDIOX or MIDI Monitor).

I used Pianoteq for the note-on velocities, and it doesn't seem to be a sensor related issue. Also using headphones confirmed there are no differences in the volume when compared to neighbouring keys. It must be something further along the chain, i.e. speakers emphasising a certain note or two. There are also no differences in volume of D5 and D#5 when using Pianoteq, outputting through JBL 305's (with local sound switched off).


Good to know! It may be some reverberation or resonance coming from the DP's cabinet or environment. I had a similar issue that I sorted out by moving the DP a couple of cms away from the wall. Do you happen to have the "Wall EQ" on? With that setting on I get a lot of cabinet resonance that blurs the sound, but this is likely dependent on the DP placing and surrounding environment.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2738650
05/22/18 12:50 PM
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I don't think CA78 has Wall EQ, but I'll try move it around to see if it makes a difference. Will probably do it next week when the tech comes over. Cheers mate.


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2743959
06/12/18 05:53 PM
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One friend of mine has problems with recording via USB on a CA98. It is already updated to last version.
The UI freezes during the last step, when renaming should be possible. It is not related to the stick model, that has been ruled out.
This happened yet before updating to the last version.
Any ideas?

The screen shows the file name, but tapping on " done" has no effect.

Last edited by mabraman; 06/12/18 05:57 PM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2743986
06/12/18 08:28 PM
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mabraman, it's probably best if your friend contacts his/her Kawai dealer/distributor for assistance.

However can you perhaps clarify what you mean by:

Quote
It is not related to the stick model, that has been ruled out.


Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2744021
06/12/18 11:57 PM
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I had the same problem.
I unplugged the power cord (power function also froze)
Turned it on and reformatted the USB stick with the piano.
It's still working until now.
The Kawai Support response was not to use large capacity USB stick 4gb or 8gb recommended.
I also tried USB stick with slower transfer rate, it recorded only the first few second.
In my case I was using 16gb with too many files in it.
Capacity, Number of files, and transfer rate is affecting the performance.
I don't know if this works with different USB stick, mine is SanDisk CruzerBlade 16gb.

Cheers!


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744036
06/13/18 02:18 AM
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For what it's worth, I use a SanDisk Cruiser Fit 16gb, and have never experienced any USB problems with current generation Kawai DPs.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744047
06/13/18 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
mabraman, it's probably best if your friend contacts his/her Kawai dealer/distributor for assistance.

However can you perhaps clarify what you mean by:

Quote
It is not related to the stick model, that has been ruled out.


Kind regards,
James
x

Sorry for my bad english.
I meant that it doesn´t seem to be a matter of brand, nor capacity of the usb stick, because several models have been already tested: all with the same result. The last step of the recording process (renaming the file and "done") can´t be completed. There's is no response and it enters a closed loop.
I have suggested that he called the vendor to execute his warranty. Also to record internally and try to export that recording to usb, in order to be sure that it's not a hardware problem.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744048
06/13/18 03:49 AM
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Screenshot. He says that, after this point, there's no way to get done or navigate in any direction.
[img]http://www.entre88teclas.es/foro/download/file.php?id=6914[/img]


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744061
06/13/18 05:21 AM
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Thank you for the additional info.

I'm unable to see the screenshot, unfortunately. However I'm familiar with the CAUI, so can imagine how it appears.

Assuming your friend is also posting on the Spanish forum, can you perhaps provide a direct link to his/her post, please?

It's perhaps also worth confirming that this CA98 owner is using the latest v1.0.2 system software and touchscreen software (three are three stages to update everything fully), and not just the update system software, but an older touchscreen software. It's perhaps unlikely, but worth checking, just in case.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744071
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You can try formatting the USB stick with the CA98.

Anyway, I once experienced a similar GUI "lock" on my CA98 when navigating to a directory with 555 MIDI files on it - maybe someone can guess what are the contents of that directory ;-) The only way to unlock the GUI was to reboot the DP. However, I had managed to navigate to that directory before. I am running the latest firmware version. It can be easily shown that the GUI will take a long time to list the contents of a directory with many files (say +100) and that it is not caching the contents previously read.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744076
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Thank you for the additional info.

I'm unable to see the screenshot, unfortunately. However I'm familiar with the CAUI, so can imagine how it appears.

Assuming your friend is also posting on the Spanish forum, can you perhaps provide a direct link to his/her post, please?

It's perhaps also worth confirming that this CA98 owner is using the latest v1.0.2 system software and touchscreen software (three are three stages to update everything fully), and not just the update system software, but an older touchscreen software. It's perhaps unlikely, but worth checking, just in case.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks James. This is the link:

http://www.entre88teclas.es/foro/vi...cb8e817dc06c0f100e&start=156#p185382

In theory, he updated succesfully to the last firmware version after some trouble understanding how to do it, but who knows wink



Last edited by mabraman; 06/13/18 07:25 AM.

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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744153
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A video showing how It happens
CA98 recording issue


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744189
06/13/18 04:27 PM
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You have to use at least one Upper Case letter, one number and one special character so it would allow you to save it!
SCNR

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2744190
06/13/18 04:38 PM
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In the video, it looks like touch screen failure.
So, It is different from my case, hmmm
Mine just freeze, nothing can do at all, except plugging out the power cord.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2744255
06/13/18 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mabraman
A video showing how It happens
CA98 recording issue


Thank you for the link (and also to the forum thread).

It seems that the 'Done' button press is not registering correctly.
I'm afraid I don't know what could be causing this.

I believe the same keyboard UI is used for other functions such as storing (and naming) a Favorite memory (Store to Favorite), or saving an internal song recorded in Sound mode to USB. Indeed, the latter would be a good test, to double-check that USB writing is working correctly.

I would also like to double-check that the customer's CA98 is running the v1.0.2 touchscreen software. This version number is shown at the bottom of the Settings menu.

Regarding your suggestion of recording to internal memory first, and then converting to audio, this is only possible when recording in Sound mode. The option is not available in Pianist mode. This limitation should be explained in the owner's manual.

My recommendation to the customer ('Heart' in the Spanish forum) would be to contact their Kawai dealer/distributor for assistance.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744300
06/14/18 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
...saving an internal song recorded in Sound mode to USB. Indeed, the latter would be a good test, to double-check that USB writing is working correctly.

...

Regarding your suggestion of recording to internal memory first, and then converting to audio, this is only possible when recording in Sound mode. The option is not available in Pianist mode. This limitation should be explained in the owner's manual.
...

Kind regards,
James
x

Last night I was reading the manual and was hardly able to find any mention to the possibility of exporting files from internal memory to USB drive. I knew it wasn't possible for Pianist mode and, as it is a feature of x7 models, it should work in Sound mode...and yes, it is on page 71! (Recorder playback).
By the way, does it convert internal songs to mp3 automatically, or keeps them in KSO?


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: mabraman] #2744308
06/14/18 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mabraman
By the way, does it convert internal songs to mp3 automatically, or keeps them in KSO?


The recorded song is saved in either .KSO or .MID format, depending on the option selected (Save to USB [INT] or Save to USB [SMF]).

The 'Convert to Audio' function is no longer available on the CA98/CA78/NV10, however the same functionality can be reproduced using the Overdubbing function and selecting either an SMF/KSO file or an Internal Song recorded in Sound mode. This is explained on page 78 of the owner's manual.

May I kindly request that you ask your friend to check if the 'Store to Favorites' and/or 'Save to USB (SMF/USB)' functions (that also show the keyboard interface) are working correctly, and to confirm the version of the touchscreen software, as in my previous post. Feel free to also inform them of my post, or invite them to the forum. Thank you in advance.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744323
06/14/18 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James


May I kindly request that you ask your friend to check if the 'Store to Favorites' and/or 'Save to USB (SMF/USB)' functions (that also show the keyboard interface) are working correctly, and to confirm the version of the touchscreen software, as in my previous post. At the time of writing. Feel free to also inform them of my post, or invite them to the forum. Thank you in advance.

Kind regards,
James
x

I just did it. Thank you very much, James, you are always very kind and helpful.
He is already in contact with the technicians. 'Save to USB (SMF/USB)' won't work.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744328
06/14/18 07:23 AM
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Thank you very much mabraman.

I just checked the Spanish forum again and saw the most recent posts from 'Heart'.

It's clear that the instrument was correctly updated to v1.0.2, and that saving a recorder song to USB is also not working correct.
I note with interest that the same USB stick works correctly with the store's CA98, which suggest there is some kind of problem with the customer's instrument.

Thanks again for bringing this to my attention, and for following-up. I'm hopeful that the dealer's technicians will be able to resolve this strange issue.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744329
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May I ask you what is the Spanish forum?
I only know of German forums, any other languages?


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Audetto] #2744336
06/14/18 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Audetto
May I ask you what is the Spanish forum?
I only know of German forums, any other languages?

It's just a forum dedicated to piano, from Spain.


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Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744343
06/14/18 08:27 AM
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Audetto  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 28
Do you mind sharing the link?


Kawai CA78
(previously Kawai KDP90)
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Audetto] #2744354
06/14/18 09:48 AM
06/14/18 09:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 628
Valencia, Spain
M
mabraman Offline
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mabraman  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 628
Valencia, Spain
Originally Posted by Audetto
Do you mind sharing the link?

http://www.entre88teclas.es/foro/index.php


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744378
06/14/18 11:48 AM
06/14/18 11:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
A
AnneThailand Offline
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AnneThailand  Offline
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Bangkok
Hi everyone,

thanks so much for all you entries, it helped me in my decision-making tremendously! After restless weeks of internet research I have made up my mind 95%, I will buy a Kawai CA 78:-) If someone would like to convince me otherwise, please question my decision:-).

In Bangkok, where I currently live, there are only certain brands available (Yamaha, Kawai, Casio). The number of digital pianos being displayed are limited and so is the expertise in the shops. I was able to try out Yamaha CLP 635, Kawai CS 11, CA 58, CN 27 and Casio Celviano models.

The reasons I will order a Kawai CA 78 are the following:

1) I liked both the action and sound better with the Kawai pianos (I am aware that this might change within a series, but what most of you shared about the CA-Series opposite Yamaha CLP-Series, especially with regard to the heavier action with Yamaha confirmed my impression).

2) Comparing CA 78 and CA 98 I will go for the CA 78, because I will mainly play it with headphones in a smaller apartment with a lot of neighbours. Therefore I would probably not be able to make proper use of the soundboard-addition. And since the CA 98 comes as a one-seize-furniture, delivery and moving back to Europe will be easier with a CA 78.

3) I found the staff with Kawai to be the most competent ones. In case of problems...

Your reports about the software or other problems problems nearly made me give up on the plan, but it seems, I have not much of a choice rather then trust and hope, that my piano will run fine:-).
And trust, of course, that I will love the CA78 without having tested it...

Anne

PS: If anyone happens to look for a piano in Bangkok, I am happy to share locations and experiences. Shops close down or change location here so fast...

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744591
06/15/18 01:12 AM
06/15/18 01:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 41
Switzerland
P
paf Offline
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paf  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 41
Switzerland
Hi Anne

My advice about the software (or better said the user interface, as everybody seems happy about the sound engine software) before you spend multi-1000-€: look at the manual first (available at Kawai online), then go to a shop, use the GUI (e.g. for changing instruments or settings) and try to save and restore settings (using the favorites and the "save to sound" function).

If it works as you expect and you like it, then go for it.

If it doesn't, think twice about it and the fact that Kawai has given ZERO perspective of a GUI update for better usability in the last half year.

If you can't test it by yourself.. again, think twice about it.

Regards
Patrick


Kawai CA98, Technics SX-PX 201 with homemade multitrack MIDI recorder based on an Arduino
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744596
06/15/18 01:51 AM
06/15/18 01:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 195
Taipei, Taiwan
K
Kenny Cheng Offline
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Kenny Cheng  Offline
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K
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 195
Taipei, Taiwan
I feedback the UI problem to my local dealer. I don't expect Kawai to improve in a short term.

For now, I just keep practicing on my CA78 and not worry about the UI thing.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2744632
06/15/18 07:31 AM
06/15/18 07:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 628
Valencia, Spain
M
mabraman Offline
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mabraman  Offline
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M
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 628
Valencia, Spain
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Thank you very much mabraman.

I just checked the Spanish forum again and saw the most recent posts from 'Heart'.

It's clear that the instrument was correctly updated to v1.0.2, and that saving a recorder song to USB is also not working correct.
I note with interest that the same USB stick works correctly with the store's CA98, which suggest there is some kind of problem with the customer's instrument.

Thanks again for bringing this to my attention, and for following-up. I'm hopeful that the dealer's technicians will be able to resolve this strange issue.

Kind regards,
James
x


Just to let you know, user has tested 'save to favourites' function and, as you presumed, it won't work. It seems that 'done' key is at fault.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: paf] #2744772
06/15/18 10:56 PM
06/15/18 10:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
A
AnneThailand Offline
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AnneThailand  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
Originally Posted by paf
Hi Anne

My advice about the software (or better said the user interface, as everybody seems happy about the sound engine software) before you spend multi-1000-€: look at the manual first (available at Kawai online), then go to a shop, use the GUI (e.g. for changing instruments or settings) and try to save and restore settings (using the favorites and the "save to sound" function).

If it works as you expect and you like it, then go for it.

If it doesn't, think twice about it and the fact that Kawai has given ZERO perspective of a GUI update for better usability in the last half year.

If you can't test it by yourself.. again, think twice about it.

Regards
Patrick



Hi Patrick,

Thanks a lot! Good advice. I will try to test the above mentioned settings then. I am still waiting for an answer though whether they have the CA 78 on stock or whether they need to order it from Japan exclusively for me...Indeed, It is not an easy decision to buy something that expensive without having seen and tested it...Still not 100% sure.

Again, thanks a lot.

Regards to Switzerland (I am German:-)

Anne

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: AnneThailand] #2744801
06/16/18 06:09 AM
06/16/18 06:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 80
Hamburg, Germany
H
Holger Stief Offline
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Holger Stief  Offline
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H
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 80
Hamburg, Germany
Anne, you mentioned you were able to try the Kawai CS11.
Please note that the CS11 has the same action (Grand Feel II) as the CA78; and when you play the CA78 in "sound mode", you can also get exactly the same sound as with the CS11, since the sound mode uses the same sound engine as the CS11. So at least over headphones you should be able to completely replicate the feel and sound of the CS11.
Which means that, if you liked the feel and sound of the Kawai pianos you tested the most, you would actually be pretty safe with your decision for the CA78.

Then, in addition to the "sound mode", you also get the "pianist mode" in the CA78. This mode uses Kawai's new SK-EX rendering engine, which is based on the same samples as the older engine, so the core sound character is very close to it. But in my opinion it offers improved playability, more realistic resonance and - with headhpones - a more realistic "sitting in front of a piano" sound stage compared to the older engine.
So this should be an improvement rather than a deviation from the sound you were able to test already - but in any case, if you happen not to get along well with it, you will still have the "sound mode" to fall back to.

In regard to CA98 vs. CA78 I would also recommend to go for the CA78, since you wrote you will use mainly headphones.
I actually owned a CA95 (an older CA flagship model also with soundboard) for over 5 years. As it turned out, I practically never used it without headphones, but ended up moving three times within those years, and had the piano transported by real piano movers each time. In hindsight, I could have saved quite a bit of money both with the purchase and in the moving costs, had I gone for a CA65 (same model without soundboard) instead.

I hope this helps with your decision - good luck!


Pianist & Composer.
Steingraeber & Söhne C-212 CF, Kawai Novus NV10
VI Labs Ravenscroft, True Keys: Pianos; Garritan CFX Concert Grand, Synthogy Ivory II
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKKuqH6G1C9TuJosOx1dXaQ
https://holgerstiefpiano.bandcamp.com/
https://www.facebook.com/holgerstiefpiano
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2745359
06/18/18 03:06 PM
06/18/18 03:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 628
Valencia, Spain
M
mabraman Offline
500 Post Club Member
mabraman  Offline
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M
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 628
Valencia, Spain
Updated and solved: the one who has the screen problems has been offered a new CA98.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2745435
06/18/18 07:23 PM
06/18/18 07:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,208
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Online Content OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,208
Hamamatsu, Japan
Thank you for the update mabraman. It's good to hear that the customer is being looked after.

I checked the relevant thread of the Spanish forum but could not find any further updates from the customer.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Holger Stief] #2745505
06/18/18 10:58 PM
06/18/18 10:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
A
AnneThailand Offline
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AnneThailand  Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
Originally Posted by Holger Stief
Anne, you mentioned you were able to try the Kawai CS11.
Please note that the CS11 has the same action (Grand Feel II) as the CA78; and when you play the CA78 in "sound mode", you can also get exactly the same sound as with the CS11, since the sound mode uses the same sound engine as the CS11. So at least over headphones you should be able to completely replicate the feel and sound of the CS11.
Which means that, if you liked the feel and sound of the Kawai pianos you tested the most, you would actually be pretty safe with your decision for the CA78.

Then, in addition to the "sound mode", you also get the "pianist mode" in the CA78. This mode uses Kawai's new SK-EX rendering engine, which is based on the same samples as the older engine, so the core sound character is very close to it. But in my opinion it offers improved playability, more realistic resonance and - with headhpones - a more realistic "sitting in front of a piano" sound stage compared to the older engine.
So this should be an improvement rather than a deviation from the sound you were able to test already - but in any case, if you happen not to get along well with it, you will still have the "sound mode" to fall back to.

In regard to CA98 vs. CA78 I would also recommend to go for the CA78, since you wrote you will use mainly headphones.
I actually owned a CA95 (an older CA flagship model also with soundboard) for over 5 years. As it turned out, I practically never used it without headphones, but ended up moving three times within those years, and had the piano transported by real piano movers each time. In hindsight, I could have saved quite a bit of money both with the purchase and in the moving costs, had I gone for a CA65 (same model without soundboard) instead.

I hope this helps with your decision - good luck!



Hi Holger,

thanks a lot. That´s exactly what I thought. Comparing all the different models (I love the Kawai-website for its comparison charts:-) and knowing that the hammer action as well as one of the two sound modes of CS 11 and CA 98/78 are the same, plus all the excited comments about action and sounds in the forums, I thought I can risk it.

Yesterday I got the message that Kawai needs to ship the piano from Japan only for me. Therefore I will not be able to try it out first and check some of the functions. I really hope I will not face too many troubles with the user interface.

Thanks, your comments affirm me, of course, to go for it. And after what you shared about moving with a big soundboard, I am convinced that a CA 98 would not pay off for me, too.

Best, Anne.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Kawai James] #2760710
08/24/18 11:51 AM
08/24/18 11:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,289
UK
A
Alexander Borro Offline
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Alexander Borro  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,289
UK
Hello James, just a bit of feedback while I was doing my midi diagnostics I had a thought, perhaps a useful little addition.

I notice that the kawai CA78 piano advertises itself using the string USB-MIDI in the midi device list, I am partly guessing here, not having source code but I suspect this may well be the default string that the windows class compliant usb-midi driver uses or the instrument sends , unless the instrument sends some info to change that upon connection ( lazy programmers hu laugh ). The Casio AP450 I own does indeed advertise itself as Casio USB MIDI by adding the prefix Casio to it, and so does a cheap £40 acorn I have for modwheel use, so it can be done

Lets suppose you had more than one piano from different brands plugged into a PC, and they all used that same default string, you would end up with multiple USB-MIDI listing in the device list, not knowing which is which, so it could get pretty confusing. It is easy enough to find out in other ways, but it's not a very useful way of doing things using that kind of string for the description.

I would expect this is easy to do in a firmware update, I know it is a small detail, but it shows attention to detail kawai perhaps overlooked,so it would end up something like "CA78/98 USB MIDI" in the device listing, not just as the "USB MIDI".

Best regards.

Alex.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 08/24/18 11:54 AM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: AnneThailand] #2760829
08/25/18 01:20 AM
08/25/18 01:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 68
INDIA
G
Gandhi Offline
Full Member
Gandhi  Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 68
INDIA
Originally Posted by AnneThailand
Originally Posted by Holger Stief
Anne, you mentioned you were able to try the Kawai CS11.
Please note that the CS11 has the same action (Grand Feel II) as the CA78; and when you play the CA78 in "sound mode", you can also get exactly the same sound as with the CS11, since the sound mode uses the same sound engine as the CS11. So at least over headphones you should be able to completely replicate the feel and sound of the CS11.
Which means that, if you liked the feel and sound of the Kawai pianos you tested the most, you would actually be pretty safe with your decision for the CA78.

Then, in addition to the "sound mode", you also get the "pianist mode" in the CA78. This mode uses Kawai's new SK-EX rendering engine, which is based on the same samples as the older engine, so the core sound character is very close to it. But in my opinion it offers improved playability, more realistic resonance and - with headhpones - a more realistic "sitting in front of a piano" sound stage compared to the older engine.
So this should be an improvement rather than a deviation from the sound you were able to test already - but in any case, if you happen not to get along well with it, you will still have the "sound mode" to fall back to.

In regard to CA98 vs. CA78 I would also recommend to go for the CA78, since you wrote you will use mainly headphones.
I actually owned a CA95 (an older CA flagship model also with soundboard) for over 5 years. As it turned out, I practically never used it without headphones, but ended up moving three times within those years, and had the piano transported by real piano movers each time. In hindsight, I could have saved quite a bit of money both with the purchase and in the moving costs, had I gone for a CA65 (same model without soundboard) instead.

I hope this helps with your decision - good luck!



Hi Holger,

thanks a lot. That´s exactly what I thought. Comparing all the different models (I love the Kawai-website for its comparison charts:-) and knowing that the hammer action as well as one of the two sound modes of CS 11 and CA 98/78 are the same, plus all the excited comments about action and sounds in the forums, I thought I can risk it.

Yesterday I got the message that Kawai needs to ship the piano from Japan only for me. Therefore I will not be able to try it out first and check some of the functions. I really hope I will not face too many troubles with the user interface.

Thanks, your comments affirm me, of course, to go for it. And after what you shared about moving with a big soundboard, I am convinced that a CA 98 would not pay off for me, too.

Best, Anne.


Hi Anne..
I also went through from same situation for buying Piano so i can undrstand your Problem.
I also order Kawai CA 78 without demo because it is available here in India agaist confirm order only so demo or comparision was not possible.

Kawai needs to ships the Piano from Japan only for me.Same as you.

I started Thread also " Kawai 78 vs Yamaha CLP 645" and happy with information n advice n suggestions i recd on that Thread & also there are some other helpful Thread specialy one which started by Kawai James.

And finally, i order CA 78 two week back & will recieve by September 1st week.

KAWAI is Very reputed & respected Brand..CA 78 is realy Very good Piano..

So don't worry you will be happy..

Hopefully...you will not regret your Purchase...

Goodluck to you..

Gandhi.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: Gandhi] #2764475
09/10/18 09:01 AM
09/10/18 09:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
A
AnneThailand Offline
Junior Member
AnneThailand  Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 4
Bangkok
Hi Ghandi,
thanks a lot!
My CA 78 has arrived and everything works so far:-)
The sound is fantastic and even with the very cheap headphones it came with, it is brilliant and I can hardly believe that I am playing a digital piano, it feels so real:-)

Good luck to you, as well. I hope the shipment from Japan to India will not take long (mine took only two weeks, although it was said I needed to wait six weeks...).

Best regards,
Anne.

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: AnneThailand] #2764484
09/10/18 09:51 AM
09/10/18 09:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 68
INDIA
G
Gandhi Offline
Full Member
Gandhi  Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 68
INDIA
Originally Posted by AnneThailand
Hi Ghandi,
thanks a lot!
My CA 78 has arrived and everything works so far:-)
The sound is fantastic and even with the very cheap headphones it came with, it is brilliant and I can hardly believe that I am playing a digital piano, it feels so real:-)

Good luck to you, as well. I hope the shipment from Japan to India will not take long (mine took only two weeks, although it was said I needed to wait six weeks...).

Best regards,
Anne.


Congratulation.....

Thank you very much for your kind input...

Hopefully I will get my Piano on 13th september...

Enjoy your New Piano...

Gandhi

Re: Kawai CA98/CA78 v1.0.2 software update - now available [Re: AnneThailand] #2764488
09/10/18 10:02 AM
09/10/18 10:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 332
Europe
A
arc7urus Offline
Full Member
arc7urus  Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 332
Europe
Originally Posted by AnneThailand
Hi Ghandi,
thanks a lot!
My CA 78 has arrived and everything works so far:-)
The sound is fantastic and even with the very cheap headphones it came with, it is brilliant and I can hardly believe that I am playing a digital piano, it feels so real:-)


Do invest in some mid-range headphones to take advantage of the sound engine. There are plenty of discussions about headphones
on this forum and elsewhere, but the BeyerDynamic DT 990 Pro or the Sennheiser HD 598/599 are solid choices.

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