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Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: computerpro3] #2702486
01/05/18 09:13 PM
01/05/18 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3

1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.


Well I'm always happy to test .fxp files from anyone who thinks they have the winning Pianoteq formula. Haven't heard a convincing one yet, but would be delighted to find one.

Originally Posted by computerpro3

2. Their top end sounds are a joke compared to not just pianoteq, but even similarly sampled libraries you can use via PC or Mac. There is less than 1gb of memory in most of these instruments, and piano sample libraries can be 80-100gb and more.

Regardless of your feelings about pianoteq, the technology of sampling used in the instruments is about 15 years behind what it should be. I can buy a $60 single board computer the size of a credit card that has a qualcomm snapdragon quad core 1.4ghz processor with a dedicated audio DSP chip on board and 4GB of ram. That is lightyears faster than the hardware in most top end instruments.

It's not about price, it's just about them not changing anything because there is no innovation or competition to.


Agreed; I think there is a general consensus on here that DP builtin sounds are way behind the curve. They do improve with each generation, but it's iterative to say the least, and there seems to be a general lack of willingness to try and produce a sound comparable to the best VSTs.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: karvala] #2702523
01/06/18 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by computerpro3

1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.


Well I'm always happy to test .fxp files from anyone who thinks they have the winning Pianoteq formula. Haven't heard a convincing one yet, but would be delighted to find one.


My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

In terms of just a recording (when I am not practicing and don't care about realistic sound from the player's perspective, but rather from the listener's) I will set up pianoteq differently and master the recording differently as well.

But if you know what you are doing, it's ten times better than any sample library I have found (and I own all of the big ones).

Last edited by computerpro3; 01/06/18 12:55 AM.
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: computerpro3] #2702530
01/06/18 02:25 AM
01/06/18 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces.

Great to hear - I have been wanting to experiment with external reverb with Pianoteq for some time now. Two questions:
  • Are there instructions somewhere on how to do this for someone who isn't familiar with DAW etc?
  • I have heard good things about Valhalla Room + Pioanoteq as well. Have you tried that instead of QL Spaces and if so, which one do you prefer?

My go-to sound setup now-a-days is: combination VST + Kawai CA-67 sound from Kawai's speakers (in front of me) and VST sound alone from audio system speakers behind me. As VST, I use both Pianoteq 6 (with its internal reverb) or Garritan CFX (Classic configuration with ambient mics reduced compared to close mic). If I keep the overall volume lound, it is a very convincing realistic sound.

Thanks,
Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai CA-67 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: computerpro3] #2702560
01/06/18 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

That's my impression too: Pianoteq serves very well in sophisticated experimental setups like yours. I imagine people at digital piano research labs do similar things before putting their findings into marketable products half a decade later. The latter is what pianists need: Something, which works out of the box and sounds good.

I find myself using Pianoteq 6 more often than 5 for piano practice now (I paid for the upgrade), because I need long sustaining notes with proper pedal response for certain more advanced pieces now. However the weaknesses of the artificial sounding modeling and the problematic action-to-sound mapping using my Kawai action are still there, but I've given up on fiddling around with settings for hours and use the time for piano practice instead.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
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Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: computerpro3] #2702633
01/06/18 01:34 PM
01/06/18 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by computerpro3

1. That's just because people don't know how to set it up and tweak it properly. I can consistently fool people with pianoteq, even experienced pianists, into thinking it's a real piano in blind listening tests.


Well I'm always happy to test .fxp files from anyone who thinks they have the winning Pianoteq formula. Haven't heard a convincing one yet, but would be delighted to find one.


My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

In terms of just a recording (when I am not practicing and don't care about realistic sound from the player's perspective, but rather from the listener's) I will set up pianoteq differently and master the recording differently as well.

But if you know what you are doing, it's ten times better than any sample library I have found (and I own all of the big ones).


Do you have any recordings you can share? (...and an fxp file??)

Like JoeT, I've got frustrated with countless hours seeking the best sound from Pianoteq. I've got it to a point now with a combination of DP and PT sound that allows me practice and play enjoyably. The touch/dynamic enhancements that PT brings to the DP (N2 in my case) easily outweigh the small sacrifices in absolute sound quality.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: computerpro3] #2702638
01/06/18 01:57 PM
01/06/18 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
My main trick is totally disabling the pianoteq reverb and running it through a high quality convolution reverb like QL Spaces. I use a tweaked pianoteq bluthner BA concert recording (I paid extra for the full pianoteq as I do not find the cheaper version mic positions realistic).

When I am playing, I get the most realistic sound quality by using open headphones (Sennheiser HD650 off of a Schiit Bifrost multibit and Asgard 2) and blending the built in sound of the Kawai on very low volume with the tweaked pianoteq sound through the headphones on high quality.

This is totally unique as it gives the left to right positional sound information coming from the kawai sound system that a real piano has from a player's perspective, along with physical key vibrations from the built in speakers. But your brain is hearing mostly the pianoteq sound and EW convolution reverb, which adds simulation of a concert hall and a better quality piano sound. Pianoteq (being technically, artificially perfect....) is tuned just a cent or so off from some of the Kawai samples, so it sound super realistic in terms of string to string variation and resonances. I have had professional concert pianists try the setup and say "WTF, this is crazy real."

In terms of just a recording (when I am not practicing and don't care about realistic sound from the player's perspective, but rather from the listener's) I will set up pianoteq differently and master the recording differently as well.

But if you know what you are doing, it's ten times better than any sample library I have found (and I own all of the big ones).


So you aren't really "fooling" anyone with Pinaoteq then...

You are "fooling" some people with Pianoteq run through another computer program and then adding in some of the original Kawai DP's piano sound itself...?


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2702643
01/06/18 02:16 PM
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Karvala, where did you see that the N3X “only has 256MB sample memory”? To my knowledge Yamaha does not publish any specs on avantgrands regarding sample size, sample layers and velocity levels.

Thx

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2702647
01/06/18 02:25 PM
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The N3 has 4x1Gbit (512kB) of Wave memory according to its service manual.

I suppose the spatial sampling (more than 2 channels) needs more memory than a SH Silent for the same amount of velocity layers or decay length. (Yes, we have no information about these specifications).

I havn’t found a N3X service manual.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/06/18 02:31 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703190
01/08/18 01:40 PM
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A new YouTube NV10 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWadIZ8chgc

Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Frédéric L] #2703201
01/08/18 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The N3 has 4x1Gbit (512kB) of Wave memory according to its service manual.


4x1Gbit should be 512MB and not KB right?

Originally Posted by jfl
A new YouTube NV10 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWadIZ8chgc

Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.


Nice, thanks for posting. The one thing that stood out to me from the video is how prominent that cheek block display is. It really makes me wish it was OLED rather than LED. Though I assume it's mainly because there isn't a whole lot else you can accurately judge from a Youtube video.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703210
01/08/18 02:46 PM
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The touch display in the video still has the protective film applied, which makes it look a bit ugly...

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: JoBert] #2703229
01/08/18 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
The touch display in the video still has the protective film applied, which makes it look a bit ugly...


That's a good point, it's also over the Kawai logo on the fallboard and it clearly impacts the contrast. Maybe it'll be fine.

But...with a polished ebony block serving as the bezel, I can only imagine an LED looking washed out and light-bleedy with or without film. Especially as it will almost certainly be viewed off-center.

A minor issue for sure, but I think it's valid feedback for something positioned in the premium market.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Gombessa] #2703233
01/08/18 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The N3 has 4x1Gbit (512kB) of Wave memory according to its service manual.


4x1Gbit should be 512MB and not KB right?


Yes, of course... 512kB is rather tiny even 10 years ago.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/08/18 04:06 PM. Reason:

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Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: jfl] #2703245
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This piano is extremely pretty. (The only little thing that is slightly off-putting is those speaker grills on the top… but even so it is extremely pretty.)

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: computerpro3] #2703251
01/08/18 04:55 PM
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Do I get it right that in your opinion the piano should be modelled but the reverb should be sampled? (PianoTeq does have something that it calls convolution reverb, but I doubt that they mean by it what I mean by it.)

Does anybody know if the convolution reverb of some sampled library (Garritan has one for instance) can be fed with external sound source (e.g. PianoTeq)? And if so whether it counts as ‘quality’ convolution reverb? (I am not much interested in buying a reverb with forest, tunnel, etc. response samples.)

Last edited by winnyec; 01/08/18 04:56 PM.
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: jfl] #2703302
01/08/18 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl


Thanks for posting the video.

Originally Posted by jfl
Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.


I'm 99% certain the sound would have been captured from the instrument's Line Out connectors.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703360
01/09/18 04:12 AM
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The sound is clearly coming from the Line Out connectors.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703394
01/09/18 09:09 AM
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Kawai James has indicated that there is a 1% chance that the sound is coming from the speakers, so we cannot say conclusively that ‘the sound is clearly coming from the line out.’

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703408
01/09/18 10:17 AM
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Sounds nice.

Interesting comment in that YouTube thread:

Quote
One thing is disappointing me: dark grey felt strip in the deep of the keys instead of red one like on real acoustic Grand Pianos. Kawai choose this color for many their digital pianos, and I don't share that choice. They try to imitate real grands, but lose such details. - Oleg

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: PianoGuyStuart] #2703417
01/09/18 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
Sounds nice.

Interesting comment in that YouTube thread:

Quote
One thing is disappointing me: dark grey felt strip in the deep of the keys instead of red one like on real acoustic Grand Pianos. Kawai choose this color for many their digital pianos, and I don't share that choice. They try to imitate real grands, but lose such details. - Oleg


I saw that comment too. But assuming the fallboard on the NV10 is "standard" (or even if it's not), it can't be too hard to replace the felt with electric blue, or hot pink, or whatever color you want...


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: jfl] #2703426
01/09/18 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
A new YouTube NV10 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWadIZ8chgc

Be good to know if the sound is direct or from the speaker system.


It looked like there was a cable running to the Line Out port in the NV10.

Beautiful piano, and not surprising that the Pianist Mode was used. I've been using Pianist Mode almost exclusively now on my CA98, and the YouTube recording sounded very similar to what I hear from Pianist Mode/Classic setting. Presume that the Sound Mode is also available on the NV10.

Look forward to playing one down the road to see how much of a difference the action makes over the Grand Feel of the CA98.

FWIW, I found that the display isn't distracting at all. I just keep it on all the time now.


Kawai CA98 / Behringer Deepmind 12
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Pete14] #2703431
01/09/18 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Kawai James has indicated that there is a 1% chance that the sound is coming from the speakers, so we cannot say conclusively that ‘the sound is clearly coming from the line out.’


I don't think James is in any better position than the rest of us. At any rate, he said he was 99% certain which is rather different and in some respects a bit of an oxymoron. You cannot be partially certain about something! smile /english pedantry.

That said, it seems conclusive enough to me. It sounds far too similar to the SK-EX sample on my cs8 to be anything other than a line out capture. There's zero player/keyboard noise and zero 'colouring' of the sound that would be expected from the room or microphone and you'd expect some visible microphones for any setup that would be good enough to minimise those issues.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Pete14] #2703443
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Kawai James has indicated that there is a 1% chance that the sound is coming from the speakers, so we cannot say conclusively that ‘the sound is clearly coming from the line out.’


Nothing in life is 100% sure, I always count in 1 or 2 % chance that I can be wrong. But I work in sound, I'm a sound recordist for a living. And what I hear in this clip is a very pure recording of the SK-EX samples, in perfect conditions. I myself would not be able to make such a perfect recording with my best microphones in that room, even if there was a real SK-EX. What we hear doesn't match the acoustics of the room we see. To me it's clear I hear a direct output of the piano's samples thru the line out output.

I myself also don't like what Kawai is doing with the black felt in this piano, just like their CS11, and GX line of piano's. I like the traditional red felt in most piano's. Just like I don't like the Copper-colored plate in the Yamaha CX piano's.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703448
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Let's not read too much into it (or dive into a deeply philosophical inquiry into the meaning of absolute certainty). I assume James wasn't there to personally confirm the output, but perhaps Kawai has a policy to use line out whenever they release an audio sample, and there isn't any reason for him to believe anything else was the case here.

He's just trying to be helpful, and at the same time acknowledge that maybe there's a possibility that he's wrong. I can just imagine the future pitchforks being raised and people shouting "How can we trust KJ now?! Last time he told us the sound was line-out but he was lying! So he's lying now, too!"


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Timpskie] #2703453
01/09/18 01:52 PM
01/09/18 01:52 PM
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Timpskie


I myself also don't like what Kawai is doing with the black felt in this piano, just like their CS11, and GX line of piano's. I like the traditional red felt in most piano's. Just like I don't like the Copper-colored plate in the Yamaha CX piano's.

I agree about the black felt - dull and ugly. But I love Yamaha's copper-coloured plate!

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703458
01/09/18 02:09 PM
01/09/18 02:09 PM
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France
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Sound : nothing special. Kinda disappointing instrument video. Can they play something more dull than this ? We want constrasts, bass, dynamics, we want a real sound demo ffs...

Last edited by Cosi; 01/09/18 02:27 PM.
Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2703516
01/09/18 06:44 PM
01/09/18 06:44 PM
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It's interesting how many excellent VPC1 YouTubes are out there with classical and jazz solos. Granted it's been out a number of years and it's more accessible price-wise. Also quite a few Avantgrand videos to listen to whet the appetite of a potential hybrid buyer. Funny there seem to not be many for the CA series. at least that I've seen.

Hopefully we'll start seeing quality NV10 performance content on YouTube in the coming months. Of course, by the time that happens I'll have pulled the trigger on either an NV10 or an N2X, so too late for me...

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2705962
01/18/18 06:27 AM
01/18/18 06:27 AM
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Germany
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FYI: The Novus has now appeared in the Thomann online shop, with the same price that I found in December in a different online shop (8999€) and an "expected delivery date" of January 29th.

I've previously received a statement from Thomann via email, that once the "expected delivery date" is given as "immediate delivery", I can assume that they also have it in their show room for testing. So I hope that this will be soon.

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: Kawai James] #2705977
01/18/18 07:02 AM
01/18/18 07:02 AM
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£8199 on Bonners.

All of the blurb they have said they expected it in from 'Oct to Dec 2017'. So clearly that never happened!

Would expect they would get it in quickly, as they seem to put out a lot of videos etc about Kawai, so I would expect Kawai would be keenish to get one in their hands.

Sort of makes me wonder if there hasn't been some technical issue with this piano that hasn't been generally made public? As it seems odd that there has been such a big gap to them actually appearing anywhere?

Re: Kawai to preview NOVUS NV10 hybrid piano at Musicmesse 2017 [Re: PianoGuyStuart] #2705979
01/18/18 07:12 AM
01/18/18 07:12 AM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by PianoGuyStuart
£8199 on Bonners.

All of the blurb they have said they expected it in from 'Oct to Dec 2017'. So clearly that never happened!

Would expect they would get it in quickly, as they seem to put out a lot of videos etc about Kawai, so I would expect Kawai would be keenish to get one in their hands.

Sort of makes me wonder if there hasn't been some technical issue with this piano that hasn't been generally made public? As it seems odd that there has been such a big gap to them actually appearing anywhere?

Oh come on. What "big gap"? The announcement was only 3 months ago (plus a few days). Such a gap is normal for such an item. Even for the freshly announced CA58, Kawai James just said that he would expect that they will be in shops maybe in March. Deducing a possible technical issue from that is a bit ridiculous.

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