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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: MacMacMac] #2700308
12/29/17 06:13 AM
12/29/17 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Cheap uprights are lacking in bass. But a decent upright does have some things that no digital has:
- The loom-of-strings effect.
- The complex interplay of the strings, the resonances.
- The breadth of projection from the soundboard.
- Realistic sustain/decay.
These things just aren't there in digital pianos.
I've yet to hear a digital piano that can match a decent acoustic.

Some of the better VST pianos do a "pretty good" job.
But I'm surprised that people like Pianoteq.
Not counting the freebie/cheapo VSTs and the archaic ones from long ago, many VST pianos sound pretty good, whereas Pianoteq is so very un-piano-like. Responsive, yes. But sonically, no.


You can make a cold comparison between most of these VSTs inc. Pteq on YT. TBH they didn't sound much different from each other.
The Pteq Bluethner is my latest must have. The clarity and depth of sound is analgous with the real thing. I played one once; (a 9 footer) and it was wonderful; me and the singer got way out o'step but it didn't affect my enjoyment of that moment . . . . can't speak for the audience or the singer however ha ha

Last edited by peterws; 12/29/17 08:23 AM.

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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: trigalg693] #2700316
12/29/17 06:49 AM
12/29/17 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
The Roland engines that are fully modeled and Pianoteq sound better than most real pianos to me. FWIW, I am very picky about pianos.


This is odd. FWIW I also consider myself picky about pianos, and because of that I think Pianoteq people might be very non-picky about pianos smile


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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: peterws] #2700317
12/29/17 06:51 AM
12/29/17 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
me and the singer got way out o'step


Isn't there an unwritten rule that the responsibility for keeping together lies entirely with the accompanyist - the pianist - and not the 'soloist'? So being out o'step was nothing to do with the singer.....it was all your fault. smile

This, along with their often astonishing sight reading abilities, makes the piano accompanyist, for me, an unsung hero. Perhaps the best example of complete musicianship that exists (except, in many cases, for the creative element, you'd have to say).


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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: aph123] #2700334
12/29/17 08:19 AM
12/29/17 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by aph123
Yeah, and the best digital sound I’ve experienced is Garritan CFX controlled via my CA67. If you are going for realism, enormous samples are the way to go (if you ask me). I know that pianist mode doesn’t use 100s of GBs of samples and I can tell.

This is the first time I see somebody with VST experience comment on Kawai's pianist mode - thank you!

I know this is highly subjective and not very scientific, but if you'd be forced to put a percentage rating on how near CA67 and pianist mode come to Garritan CFX, what would you say? E.g. CA67 maybe 70% and pianist mode 80% quality compared to Garritan CFX? Just trying to get a grasp on how good pianist mode really is, compared to good VSTs, and how much of an improvement it is over the older Kawai sound engine.

FWIW, I've tried pianist mode myself and thought it was a quite noticeable improvement over the older sound engine in the CA78 I played. But I didn't modify any parameters and didn't have any chance to compare to VST.

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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: paf] #2700347
12/29/17 09:03 AM
12/29/17 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by paf
Then the seller went away and I played myself. I didn't feel a significant difference any more and I could not tell which one I like more. Then I tried the three pianist mode demos, and again, I couldn't tell what I like more. I didn't feel any "vibrations" on the CA98 but maybe the volume was too low.

If you couldn't feel the vibrations, then you were either very inattentive wink - which I do assume you were not, after all, you were there for testing. Or you did indeed have the volume too low. Which I could understand, seeing that you were in a public space. And then it isn't surprising that you couldn't hear much of a difference between the 78 and the 98. But if you set to the CA98 to a volume that is comparable to an acoustic (at about 70-80% of the volume slider), then you cannot not feel the vibrations, both in the keys and with your feet on the pedals (well, the latter maybe more so if playing without shoes grin), and you do hear the difference to the 78...

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: Deck] #2700405
12/29/17 01:14 PM
12/29/17 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Deck

OT : Have you tried both 78 & 98 ? if so, did you ear much difference between them ? I dont think the minister of finance will allow me to get a 98 ;-)


Both, sounds exactly the same with headphones, without 98 sounds better

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: Amirhsol] #2700423
12/29/17 02:17 PM
12/29/17 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Amirhsol

May I humbly disagree with this proposition?
As much as I adore acoustic pianos and as much as I appreciate what it means to own one, I don't like the sound of entry-level acoustics such as, say, Yamaha JU109 or JX113. Of course, you may argue that my apathy doesn't affect the realistic sound of these acoustics. Well it might not, but, IMHO, the so-called quintessential/ideal piano sound belongs to super-expensive grands or high-end Sauter/Yamaha uprights. Call me an oddball (and acoustic piano devotees, please stop reading the rest of my message! ☺ ) But as far as sound is concerned, I don't like to own something which sounds like Yamaha U1 or U3. Yamaha YUS5, if properly tuned/adjusted/prepared, sort of ticks my peculiar sound requirements, but not cheaper Yamaha/Kawai uprights. And it's worth mentioning that in my quest for a good upright I played a very good number of acoustics -- even the ones which were outrageously beyond my budget. I was even about to purchase Feurich 133 at one point as its price tag made it quite attractive -- it's a great piano with a very good action. But the more I played it, the more I realized that, sound-wise especially toward the base, I desire something which my current digital, the CLP-575, more closely mimics.


This is highly subjective, absolutely disagree away! smile

Sure, you have point on the base, it will be fuller / deeper on a good digital compared to a small upright. But, to me, there is a definite "dead-ness" to all digitals I've tried. There are so much more going on (for better or worse) going on when strings are vibrating and resonating.

Last edited by aph123; 12/29/17 02:34 PM.
Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: madshi] #2700430
12/29/17 02:37 PM
12/29/17 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by aph123
Yeah, and the best digital sound I’ve experienced is Garritan CFX controlled via my CA67. If you are going for realism, enormous samples are the way to go (if you ask me). I know that pianist mode doesn’t use 100s of GBs of samples and I can tell.

This is the first time I see somebody with VST experience comment on Kawai's pianist mode - thank you!

I know this is highly subjective and not very scientific, but if you'd be forced to put a percentage rating on how near CA67 and pianist mode come to Garritan CFX, what would you say? E.g. CA67 maybe 70% and pianist mode 80% quality compared to Garritan CFX? Just trying to get a grasp on how good pianist mode really is, compared to good VSTs, and how much of an improvement it is over the older Kawai sound engine.

FWIW, I've tried pianist mode myself and thought it was a quite noticeable improvement over the older sound engine in the CA78 I played. But I didn't modify any parameters and didn't have any chance to compare to VST.


Can’t give you percentages but (imho);

Garritan CFX > Pianist mode > Sound mode (old engine)

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: aph123] #2700444
12/29/17 03:12 PM
12/29/17 03:12 PM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Originally Posted by aph123
Originally Posted by Amirhsol

May I humbly disagree with this proposition?
As much as I adore acoustic pianos and as much as I appreciate what it means to own one, I don't like the sound of entry-level acoustics such as, say, Yamaha JU109 or JX113. Of course, you may argue that my apathy doesn't affect the realistic sound of these acoustics. Well it might not, but, IMHO, the so-called quintessential/ideal piano sound belongs to super-expensive grands or high-end Sauter/Yamaha uprights. Call me an oddball (and acoustic piano devotees, please stop reading the rest of my message! ☺ ) But as far as sound is concerned, I don't like to own something which sounds like Yamaha U1 or U3. Yamaha YUS5, if properly tuned/adjusted/prepared, sort of ticks my peculiar sound requirements, but not cheaper Yamaha/Kawai uprights. And it's worth mentioning that in my quest for a good upright I played a very good number of acoustics -- even the ones which were outrageously beyond my budget. I was even about to purchase Feurich 133 at one point as its price tag made it quite attractive -- it's a great piano with a very good action. But the more I played it, the more I realized that, sound-wise especially toward the base, I desire something which my current digital, the CLP-575, more closely mimics.


This is highly subjective, absolutely disagree away! smile

Sure, you have point on the base, it will be fuller / deeper on a good digital compared to a small upright. But, to me, there is a definite "dead-ness" to all digitals I've tried. There are so much more going on (for better or worse) going on when strings are vibrating and resonating.


In the end I think there are pros an cons for both, one the one hand, yes you have all that lively organic resonance, but I see where Amirhsol is coming from too. It isn't just the shorter strings, lacking bass etc , but for me as well, the more models I have tried, since i am in the market for one eventually I find I've have to raise my initial budget significantly and keep saving if I want something that I believe will keep me happy in the long run. Not to mind all the climate control issues I got to address first.

A lot of the cheaper entry level pianos, smaller uprights, and the more cheaply constructed baby grands made in China especially cut corners, it is quite common they have cheaply made plates, made using a particular method as described by Kawai here

V-pro plate
The plate is the acoustically-neutral iron superstructure of the piano over which the strings are tensioned. All GL Series plates are molded using the Vacuum Mold Process (V-Pro) with “Crossbone Design.” The result is a plate that is strong, stable and beautiful.


I would have to say the results this yields is not good in terms of tone and resonance. The more traditional costly methods as found in higher end pianos and others I have tried shows that it affects tone for the worse ( IMO ), granted there may be more to it, I don't know much about these things, but ultimately the tone is what it is, and I know when I like something .. or not, then you have flimsy thin rims etc etc, all these things affect depth of tone/timbre and sustain. As a result many of them sound a bit metallic, thin, lacking body and warmth, and some have that excessive ringing, and there can be quite a nasty breakup of tone when played more loudly, none of those are desirable things IMO. Basically something like even a GL 30 I had my eyes set on at one point, doesn't cut the mustard for me at this point, regardless of their reputation for great action and solidity in construction, for me, the tone just isn't there once you've heard better and compare that with many of the quality American or European build piano for 3 times that price, you'll hear the difference in such characteristics, it became quite clear to me quite quickly ... even with my basic skills.

While the replication of a quality VST some of that timbre will never quite sound how that instrument really is, a lot do a decent job to provide a more full tone you get from a larger grand IMO (with a decent sound system setup or headphones), and, it is always in tune, can take a pounding if you want without a nasty break up of tone, and you need not worry whether you need to get it serviced/tuned next month.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 12/29/17 04:18 PM. Reason: correction for plate description.

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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: aph123] #2700461
12/29/17 04:30 PM
12/29/17 04:30 PM
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madshi Offline
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Originally Posted by aph123
Can’t give you percentages but (imho);

Garritan CFX > Pianist mode > Sound mode (old engine)

Could you comment on whether Pianist mode is nearer (in your opinion) to Garritan CFX or nearer to Sound mode? Thank you!! smile

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: Alexander Borro] #2700549
12/30/17 01:47 AM
12/30/17 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
... Basically something like even a GL 30 I had my eyes set on at one point, doesn't cut the mustard for me at this point, regardless of their reputation for great action and solidity in construction, for me, the tone just isn't there once you've heard better and compare that with many of the quality American or European build piano for 3 times that price, you'll hear the difference in such characteristics, it became quite clear to me quite quickly ...

Kudos for stating my thoughts so pellucidly! Comparisons with American and European-built pianos aside, the GL 30's so-called tonal shortcomings become obvious once it's compared with the GL 50 -- you may want to check the last few minutes of the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oCTV-62TNM

Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
While the replication of a quality VST some of that timbre will never quite sound how that instrument really is, a lot do a decent job to provide a more full tone you get from a larger grand IMO (with a decent sound system setup or headphones), and, it is always in tune, can take a pounding if you want without a nasty break up of tone, and you need not worry whether you need to get it serviced/tuned next month.

Having seen some of the piano VSTs available on the market I can attest to that. For instance, the following piece, recorded using the Garritan CFX, keeps impressing me -- it's perhaps one of the best Rachmaninoff Prelude op. 23 no. 5 recordings I've ever heard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oEJBeurnqo
Personally speaking, I've not yet accepted the Garritan CFX route because I'm not sure how accessible it will be for the visually impaired especially when used in combination with something like REAPER and screen readers for the blind.

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: madshi] #2700558
12/30/17 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by aph123
Can’t give you percentages but (imho);

Garritan CFX > Pianist mode > Sound mode (old engine)

Could you comment on whether Pianist mode is nearer (in your opinion) to Garritan CFX or nearer to Sound mode? Thank you!! smile


I'd say the difference between Garritan and Pianist is greater than Pianist and Sound mode (as I stated above, the difference between Pianist and Sound is not big enough for me to consider an upgrade). Generally speaking, the built-in samples in digital pianos are tiny compared to software pianos. This is the main argument for software pianos after all. Garritan are 100s of GBs, pianist is are in the tens of MBs I'm guessing. So 3 or 4 orders of magnitude difference in samples sizes.

So Garritan CFX >>> Pianist > Sound

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: aph123] #2700569
12/30/17 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by aph123
I'd say the difference between Garritan and Pianist is greater than Pianist and Sound mode (as I stated above, the difference between Pianist and Sound is not big enough for me to consider an upgrade). Generally speaking, the built-in samples in digital pianos are tiny compared to software pianos. This is the main argument for software pianos after all. Garritan are 100s of GBs, pianist is are in the tens of MBs I'm guessing. So 3 or 4 orders of magnitude difference in samples sizes.

So Garritan CFX >>> Pianist > Sound

Thank you!

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: MacMacMac] #2700693
12/30/17 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Cheap uprights are lacking in bass. But a decent upright does have some things that no digital has:
- The loom-of-strings effect.
- The complex interplay of the strings, the resonances.
- The breadth of projection from the soundboard.
- Realistic sustain/decay.
These things just aren't there in digital pianos.
I've yet to hear a digital piano that can match a decent acoustic.


I will give you the "breadth of projection from the soundboard" for an upright, but Pianoteq definitely has the loom-of-strings effect, resonances, and realistic sustain and decay. I bought the most basic version so I am not that happy with how it sounds but I believe if I upgraded, I would eventually be able to tweak it to my liking as I see that the most expensive version allows adjustment of parameters that I think would fix the problem. It isn't super super realistic, but it's enough, and as I believe I mentioned, many of those noises aren't actually desirable.

The problem with "decent acoustic" is that term really only applies to ~200cm+ grand pianos, in fact very few sub 220cm pianos cut it for me. I've played a Steingraeber CFM upright and while it sounded pretty good for an upright, it's still sorely lacking. There's small grands like the Phoenix A170 or Hailun 178 (I was shocked by how good this one was when I saw it at a dealer) that sound great, but they're still too small and have severe inharmonicity. I would much rather play a Yamaha N1 connected to a good software piano. I'm looking at a move to the NYC area where it might be impossible to get a grand piano into many apartments, and thus I'm probably starting off with an MP11, but hoping I can get a place eventually that will fit a 200cm piano as a compromise.

Anyways back on topic, I have visited the local Kawai dealer many times and tried all the models, and the sound never impresses me, doesn't matter what new modes or improvements they add. A separate software piano is a must buy, IMO. Basically anything is better than what Kawai/Yamaha ship with.

Last edited by trigalg693; 12/30/17 03:33 PM.
Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: trigalg693] #2700732
12/30/17 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
Anyways back on topic, I have visited the local Kawai dealer many times and tried all the models, and the sound never impresses me, doesn't matter what new modes or improvements they add. A separate software piano is a must buy, IMO. Basically anything is better than what Kawai/Yamaha ship with.


+1. I am using VSTs almost 90% of the time due to significant difference between Kawai CA67 built-in sound and the VSTs.

Osho


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Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: aph123] #2700809
12/30/17 10:31 PM
12/30/17 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by aph123



So Garritan CFX >>> Pianist > Sound



In your opinion where does Pianoteq stand between these, it s quite pricy too

Are you using monitors with VST or just the internal speakers?

Tx

Re: Testing KAWAI CA98 sound vs. pianist mode and other thoughts [Re: Deck] #2700837
12/31/17 02:30 AM
12/31/17 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Deck
Originally Posted by aph123



So Garritan CFX >>> Pianist > Sound



In your opinion where does Pianoteq stand between these, it s quite pricy too

Are you using monitors with VST or just the internal speakers?

Tx


The purely (or mostly) modelled sounds are a different beast in my book. It’s hard to compare to the ‘mostly sampled’ ones. All I can say here is that is I like Roland’s models better than pianoteq.

With digital pianos I use headphones 99% of the time. If I want to play without them, I play acoustic.

So if you are really into sounds, You need both a sampled based and model based VST, and use on different occasions.

Last edited by aph123; 12/31/17 02:36 AM.
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