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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703956
01/11/18 12:45 PM
01/11/18 12:45 PM
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I somewhat reluctantly have to sympathize with these views. It's rather easy to say "you have two choices, choose between them based on their merits and be done." But for many people the decision to purchase a hybrid is a bona fide big-ticket item, and simply can't be made in a vacuum. $15k can buy a very nice car. To say that other potential uses for the same money (including accepting the compromises associated with the superior sound and experience of an acoustic grand) don't come into the picture, is something I simply can't divorce from my own thinking.

Long story short, if I can get a hybrid I love for half the price of an acoustic grand ($8000), that's a lot easier to swallow than if it costs the same as a new acoustic. If I'm paying the same, I'll be thinking long and hard about whether that's the best use of my money, even if it's only hybrid choice out there.

Just my $0.02.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Pologuy] #2703980
01/11/18 01:58 PM
01/11/18 01:58 PM
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Nashville, Tennessee
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I agree price is typically towards the top of the list for most. I happened to be fortunate in that I was able to buy an AvantGrand N1, and don’t discount others much more price sensitive.

As far as pricing goes, it makes perfect sense that the NV10 should be $12,000+ looking st the cabinet and speakers and considering it looks to be very similar to the N2. Don’t know why it’s so cheap in Japan as it is listed for sale for $12,300USD on the bonnersmusic.com website.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703987
01/11/18 02:23 PM
01/11/18 02:23 PM
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(Rant alert)

Sorry, but the 'I could buy a decent auto for $15K' argument doesn't resonate with me. If you need a car, you should definitely be spending your hard earned cash on a car and not a piano.

I think we all know that if price is a major issue, the hybrids are not a good deal. They're definitely overpriced compared to the fine non-hybrid options from Kawai and Yamaha, which provide a workable keyboard for most pianists for a fraction of the cost of a hybrid.

The hybrids are for those of us who have convinced themselves that only a real action will do and are willing to pay the (over)price and put up with some deficiencies that are not in some of the lower priced non-hybrid models.

Once you've made that decision, as I have, the only remaining decision is: which one is the best?

If you have the space and the right environment for a grand piano, why on earth would you be even looking at hybrids, which at best is an approximation of the real thing. If you just want a MIDI controller for your large VST library, in addition to your acoustic grand, get a VPC1 and be done with it.

Can't wait for NAMM 2018 - wish I could be there.

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703988
01/11/18 02:25 PM
01/11/18 02:25 PM
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Milwaukee, WI
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The Japanese have a saying for people who pay twice as much as they do for the same thing - "愚かなアメリカ人"

And I agree - anyone who pays "$12,000+" for something Kawai thinks is worth $7,895 in Japan is a "愚かなアメリカ人"


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Pologuy] #2703996
01/11/18 02:55 PM
01/11/18 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy
The Japanese have a saying for people who pay twice as much as they do for the same thing - "愚かなアメリカ人"


Do they have a saying for idiots sniping from the sidelines trolling on internet forums with phony dissatisfaction about a product they've neither seen nor played?


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Korg G1 Air |
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2703998
01/11/18 03:00 PM
01/11/18 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
(Rant alert)

Sorry, but the 'I could buy a decent auto for $15K' argument doesn't resonate with me. If you need a car, you should definitely be spending your hard earned cash on a car and not a piano.

I think we all know that if price is a major issue, the hybrids are not a good deal. They're definitely overpriced compared to the fine non-hybrid options from Kawai and Yamaha, which provide a workable keyboard for most pianists for a fraction of the cost of a hybrid.

The hybrids are for those of us who have convinced themselves that only a real action will do and are willing to pay the (over)price and put up with some deficiencies that are not in some of the lower priced non-hybrid models.

Once you've made that decision, as I have, the only remaining decision is: which one is the best?

If you have the space and the right environment for a grand piano, why on earth would you be even looking at hybrids, which at best is an approximation of the real thing. If you just want a MIDI controller for your large VST library, in addition to your acoustic grand, get a VPC1 and be done with it.

Can't wait for NAMM 2018 - wish I could be there.





Quite a mild rant compared to some we've seen here wink

I certainly don't fault you for that perspective, I'll just say that I don't share it fully, and IMO that's OK. Dif'rent strokes, and in the end what I do doesn't impact you (or vice versa).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2704002
01/11/18 03:09 PM
01/11/18 03:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
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Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline OP
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If you have the space and the right environment for a grand piano, why on earth would you be even looking at hybrids, which at best is an approximation of the real thing.

I'm a professional pianist, suffer from tinnitus and have neighbors on both sides.

A hybrid piano is the best of both worlds and is the best solution for my particular problems.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Pologuy] #2704003
01/11/18 03:11 PM
01/11/18 03:11 PM
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France
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The worth or the value of a product is only the amount of money we can put in a product. I would surely not put 12000$ in a piano because I have not the amount of money and don’t want to borrow too much for a piano. Perhaps if I win the lottery, I would be able to put twice as much in a piano, an hybrid could worth 24000$ for me, and I would be happy to buy a NV10, a N3X or a Silent Grand which would cost me less than the value I am considering. I don’t think this would make me an 愚かなアメリカ人 . Just an economical actor which try to optimise the use of its money.

However, I would be a fool if I put such a money on something without comparing the different options.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/11/18 03:14 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2704020
01/11/18 03:47 PM
01/11/18 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne


I'm a professional pianist, suffer from tinnitus and have neighbors on both sides.

A hybrid piano is the best of both worlds and is the best solution for my particular problems.


Dave- I consider the neighbor problem to be in the 'unsuitable environment for acoustic grand' category.

I don't have neighbors close by that would be bothered, but I often practice with headphones when my wife is doing something where my practicing would disturb her, and sometimes I just feel less inhibited being in the 'private sound world' headphones provide. For that reason, I'd keep my midi controller even if I had the space and environment (stable humidity and indirect sunlight) for a grand, though I'd definitely have a grand over a hybrid for my primary keyboard if I could accommodate one.

Interested in the other comment about tinnitus. I also have tinnitus. I'm careful about volume (now, unfortunately not in my youth) especially with headphones. How do you feel the (Avantgrand?) hybrid works better for you as far as hearing issues are concerned?

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2704023
01/11/18 03:54 PM
01/11/18 03:54 PM
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Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline OP
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How do you feel the (Avantgrand?) hybrid works better for you as far as hearing issues are concerned?

Well, anything that is quieter works for me. I am also sensitive for loud noise of all flavors.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2704038
01/11/18 04:45 PM
01/11/18 04:45 PM
Joined: May 2001
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Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
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As a piano tuner-tech and piano player I've found some of the after market systems that can turn
an acoustic piano into a midi controller fascinating.
I've installed the PianoDisc Silent System in my personal piano and use PianoTeq for my instrumentation.

As much as I love my Estonia L-190 by itself, I'm having a blast playing with the options in the PianoTeq studio.
Yes I know they are one of our advertisers, but this is my own opinion, they've never asked me to provide any personal endorsement.

Plus as others have mentioned about the advantage of playing through headphones, I can practice whenever I want without disturbing my partner (she loves to read, in the living room, five feet from my piano).

And finally, having other instrument sounds at my finger tips, while still having the acoustic action I'm used to has inspired me to compose some pieces I never would have come up with otherwise.

Full disclosure, I am now selling and installing these systems, and this is my web site http://ProRecord.info


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Piano World] #2704055
01/11/18 05:29 PM
01/11/18 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano World

Full disclosure, I am now selling and installing these systems, and this is my web site http://ProRecord.info


If I owned an acoustic grand, I would be very interested in this.The perfect piano for me would be an acoustic grand with a MIDI/silent option. (Fellow Mainer - midcoast region)

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2704056
01/11/18 05:39 PM
01/11/18 05:39 PM
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France
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Originally Posted by jfl
Originally Posted by Piano World

Full disclosure, I am now selling and installing these systems, and this is my web site http://ProRecord.info


If I owned an acoustic grand, I would be very interested in this.The perfect piano for me would be an acoustic grand with a MIDI/silent option. (Fellow Mainer - midcoast region)


I would be more demanding of a *perfect* piano... something like a Disklavier / CEUS, which would play some pieces of music gathered from the Internet (or from my own record, but I don’t play so well).


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2704140
01/12/18 12:34 AM
01/12/18 12:34 AM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Originally Posted by jfl
If I owned an acoustic grand, I would be very interested in this.The perfect piano for me would be an acoustic grand with a MIDI/silent option. (Fellow Mainer - midcoast region)

I am planning to own an acoustic grand in very near future - and I decided against getting such a system, based on talks with installers of such systems and the following feedback in Piano Forum..

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...iano-and-impact-to-acti.html#Post2698772
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...system-in-a-grand-piano.html#Post2696456

The main reason is that installation of such systems impact the action negatively (even in the non-silent regular mode). Some sources claim that these after-market systems impact the action only in silent mode but not in the regular mode - but local installer disagrees.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2704172
01/12/18 05:20 AM
01/12/18 05:20 AM
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Valencia, Spain
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Aside from this problem with action, the price/quality ratio of most silent systems (the one advertised above is a clear example) is very bad. You'd better having a nice digital for such silent practice, if possible, or go for a japanese piano whith it's own silent system already installed. There are no more than two brands so you can't be fooled.
If you have room for a digital there's no sense in spending +- 2000€ in a midi system with a bad sound engine over a 20k€ grand, whose keybed is quite noisy by the way.

Last edited by mabraman; 01/12/18 05:23 AM.

Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Osho] #2704217
01/12/18 10:56 AM
01/12/18 10:56 AM
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Or if your factor of "disposable income" has increased so considerably, you may even consider besides the Japanese brands a Bösendorfer (which is owned by Yamaha, hence has its system) or a Bechstein (which has its own system): they have silent versions of their respective six-and-half footers. I have no experience with either of them though.

Last edited by winnyec; 01/12/18 10:57 AM.
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: winnyec] #2704280
01/12/18 01:42 PM
01/12/18 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by winnyec
Or if your factor of "disposable income" has increased so considerably, you may even consider besides the Japanese brands a Bösendorfer (which is owned by Yamaha, hence has its system) or a Bechstein (which has its own system): they have silent versions of their respective six-and-half footers. I have no experience with either of them though.


Even if one were to purchase these, the built-in sounds in these system leave a lot to be desired. So, I will be putting a laptop on top of a grand piano to run VSTs all the time. This will be a hassle for me and looks 'ugly' to my significant other. With the additional laptop + silent system cost, I could just purchase a very high-end DP.

Also, in used acoustic grand market, there is hardly any inventory with factory silent systems - one will severely limit one's choices if looking for a used grand like that.

So, all in all, I decided to save the money on the silent system + laptop - and wait for NV10/N2X.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Osho] #2704299
01/12/18 02:55 PM
01/12/18 02:55 PM
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I was referring to mabraman's post, and his suggestion to buy a new piano with silent option, where he was specific about Japanese pianos: all I meant to say was that you can now find them in high-end European grands too… and there are those who really like the Bechstein Digital's sound.

But I did not mean it very seriously, hence the conditional clause to the sentence: I believe they have astronomical prices. (And indeed if you do not like their inherent digital sounds, their system coming from the factory does not help much with the laptop concerns.)

Last edited by winnyec; 01/12/18 02:56 PM.
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2704391
01/12/18 07:45 PM
01/12/18 07:45 PM
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I just meant that those two japanese brands provide the best silent systems so far.
On Bechstein, people speak well about VST. Is this the sound engine in their silent? If it's just a Vario...no way.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: mabraman] #2704408
01/12/18 08:37 PM
01/12/18 08:37 PM
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As a matter of fact, you are right. For some reason I was in the false belief that there was only one Bechstein thingie, but indeed they are probably two different systems. Which I cannot quite get by the way: a PC with only dedicated components to run their VST would be quite a number of magnitudes cheaper than the piano they are selling.

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