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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703206
01/08/18 02:38 PM
01/08/18 02:38 PM
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I’m quite happy with how the NV10 looks. Those jutting side cheeks would have been too heavy, for a piano that does not have the massive body of an actual grand behind it, imo.

Well, it’s a matter of taste, I guess...

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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703232
01/08/18 04:04 PM
01/08/18 04:04 PM
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It was a fun read. If anything, it goes to show what happens when things are slow around here smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: JoBert] #2703241
01/08/18 04:28 PM
01/08/18 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I’m quite happy with how the NV10 looks. Those jutting side cheeks would have been too heavy, for a piano that does not have the massive body of an actual grand behind it, imo.

Well, it’s a matter of taste, I guess...


Overall, I think the NOVUS front looks nice ( in the realm of digitals ) from what I see in pics. Putting it against a wall and the front part facing you it would fit nicely in a room somewhere I suspect. There is no obvious control panel ruining it, so it will provide a nice enough illusion sitting behind a grand if you forget what's behind it, I dig that type of thing. smile So kudos to Kawai for that, they didn't ruin it like many models. Some go so far to make that grand looking cabinet, like the V grand piano and then you have that horrid looking control panel ruining the whole thing. I wouldn't want it in the front room anyway. The Kawai CP1 looks even worse that way ... IMO ... but to each their own.

If it goes upstairs in the music room in my case, I don't care so much, as long as it is not totally horrendous looking I could live with a CA 78, sure, I find it is not an object of beauty by any means, and as far as styling goes, given a choice, I'd rather prefer the Clavinova cabinets, but if it was simply down to the piano action as a deciding factor, a cabinet is not going to sway me one way or the other.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 01/08/18 04:29 PM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703261
01/08/18 05:39 PM
01/08/18 05:39 PM
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Interesting Dave. I stopped by my local Kawai dealer, (recently changed ownership as they are Shigeru-Kawai and Bösendorfer distributors so they had some nice things to try out grin ) and the manager mentioned they were about to launch the NV-10 and invited me down to play it. He said it’s a game changer. I can only imagine what the spectacular SK-EX sample sound like with an authentic action and high end sound system must be like to experience.


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: PianoZac] #2703274
01/08/18 06:38 PM
01/08/18 06:38 PM
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I'm looking forward to playing one and could consider trading in my N3 just to have a brand new action. (Since I practice almost exclusively with headphones, the furniture aspect of the N3 is lost on me.)


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703313
01/08/18 09:00 PM
01/08/18 09:00 PM
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Will be curious to hear how it compares with the N3. How long have you had your N3? I’ve had my N1 now for 4 years and haven’t had a single thing done to it. Mostly speaking in regards to action work.


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jokke] #2703322
01/08/18 10:22 PM
01/08/18 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jokke
Originally Posted by Pologuy
That is very interesting...
Almost as interesting is the deafening silence of the usual suspects on here... smile


What I've heard over the holidays from reputable sources was even more interesting:

Kawai is actually making the Novus NV10 "hybrids" from real GL-10 models, by sawing off the back portion of the grand piano, and gluing a third leg to keep it upright. The hammers are then replaced with high tech composite plastic and optical sensors installed. The sound production is handled by ES-120 prototype put inside the cabinet that gets the signal and sound is then heard through grilles on top the piano.

Back portion of Novus NV10 looks ugly because it's just cardboard that is spray painted black. The process also causes the ugly screws in the back, because glue used for the third leg caused warping in the cardboard and that plan had to be scrapped. It also fully explains the external Onkyo speakers in NV10 demo event, because the ES-120 sound would not have been convincing enough at Musikmesse.

Now the small amount of stock is just because the NV10 action (modified Millennium III with ES120 taped into it with gaffer tape) is somewhat sensitive to transport and changes to humidity. There's also low yields due to cosmetic issues in some units caused by the chainsaw employed in construction, but that's another issue and will be fixed with improved manufacturing processes. This is why models have mostly appeared in Japan. Small amount of reviews from Japan might be due to shame of the new owners when they see the ES120 through the top grilles at home, or just because I've heard another theory that Japan is actually just a marketing ploy of Canadians to make the U.S. believe they're purchasing their stuff from overseas.

I can't disclose my source, but let's just say he's from Korvatunturi and has been in the business of delivering musical instruments and all kinds of things even small children enjoy a LONG TIME.

Now the above might sound incredulous, but it's actually hinted at in the NV10 marketing video: on 2:27 you can notice it if you look carefully: https://youtu.be/wQTJLKVoapA?t=2m28s (you can also see edge of ES120 as well in internal shots of the mechanism). I know that Kawai James cannot corroborate the above facts, but I'm sure he's nodding in silent agreement and relief when he finally sees that...

...The Truth Is Out There.



This is really interesting... Especially considering GL-10 page mentions:
Quote
  • Kawai's Exclusive Millennium III Action – Featuring ABS-Carbon Technology with Carbon Fiber
  • Extended Length Keysticks – For more even response from the front to the back of each key
  • Concert-Length Key Buttons – Doubled length for maximum energy transfer and optimum power



If this is true then it speak well for the key length and key pivot of the keys in the NV10.

Osho


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703324
01/08/18 10:33 PM
01/08/18 10:33 PM
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I think Jokke may have been a bit *too* deadpan while writing this story wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Gombessa] #2703364
01/09/18 04:17 AM
01/09/18 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I think Jokke may have been a bit *too* deadpan while writing this story wink


grin Yes maybe the chainsaw, gaffer tape and X-Files references should have been slightly more underlined, like in good (and safe) April Fool's articles, where they start really convincing and then degenerate.

I wasn't joking about Canadians though. I've been to "Tokyo" twice and the similarities to Québec are just too hard to miss.

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703380
01/09/18 07:22 AM
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Poe's Law I'm afraid.

You'd have thought that even the ES120 inside would have given it away, let alone the rest, or the sign off smile

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jokke] #2703390
01/09/18 08:42 AM
01/09/18 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jokke
Kawai is actually making the Novus NV10 "hybrids" from real GL-10 models, by sawing off the back portion of the grand piano, and gluing a third leg to keep it upright. [...]
I can't disclose my source, but let's just say he's from Korvatunturi and has been in the business of delivering musical instruments and all kinds of things even small children enjoy a LONG TIME.

And if you write to him at SF-99999 Korvatunturi, Finland (and you have been really good), you might get a delivery from him towards the end of the year.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703512
01/09/18 06:30 PM
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Oh man...I got sucked right in, didn't I, Jokke's alias should have tipped me off. I won't be fooled again!

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2703515
01/09/18 06:37 PM
01/09/18 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
Oh man...I got sucked right in, didn't I, Jokke's alias should have tipped me off. I won't be fooled again!


In other parts of the world 'Jokke' is a legitimate name. In Holland Joke is a given name. Jokke is probably from Norway.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703534
01/09/18 08:31 PM
01/09/18 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by jfl
Oh man...I got sucked right in, didn't I, Jokke's alias should have tipped me off. I won't be fooled again!


In other parts of the world 'Jokke' is a legitimate name. In Holland Joke is a given name. Jokke is probably from Norway.


Sure it's a real name, but he kind of made his bed with that post wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703672
01/10/18 11:39 AM
01/10/18 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by jfl
Oh man...I got sucked right in, didn't I, Jokke's alias should have tipped me off. I won't be fooled again!


In other parts of the world 'Jokke' is a legitimate name. In Holland Joke is a given name. Jokke is probably from Norway.


Good guess, but a Norwegian would not have inserted the thing about Korvatunturi, as they (mistakenly) believe he was born in fjords of Norway. Us Finns know the truth that Joulupukki lives in Korvatunturi, Finland.

Getting back to the topic, it would be interesting to know what challenges Kawai has faced with the NV10 production. Obviously if the road hadn't been rocky at all, we would have had it in Europe for some months already. On the good side, I visited a local Kawai dealer in Helsinki and they said they should be getting one, as there has been enough interest for it already. I think that's a good sign, and just hope that Kawai will be able to get me one by summer in case I want to buy it.

If Yamaha will announce N2X, the next question of course becomes, how quickly will that be available? N3X price point is too high for my taste (one can get C7X used for that price), but N2X *might* be more reasonable. Of course they could start at 13 999€. In that case the NV10 might be really superior alternative, unless I wait a few years for the N2X to fall down in price.

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jokke] #2703692
01/10/18 01:46 PM
01/10/18 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jokke
Us Finns know the truth that Joulupukki lives in Korvatunturi, Finland.


And doesn't sneak inside through the chimney at night.

(No rumours about the Novus to share unfortunately...)

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jokke] #2703696
01/10/18 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jokke

If Yamaha will announce N2X, the next question of course becomes, how quickly will that be available? N3X price point is too high for my taste (one can get C7X used for that price), but N2X *might* be more reasonable. Of course they could start at 13 999€. In that case the NV10 might be really superior alternative, unless I wait a few years for the N2X to fall down in price.


I don't remember if I posted about this before, but I'm facing the same "timing conundrum."

1. The N2 is currently selling in the US for ~$8500USD, and I think the N1 for $6500. This is a pretty steep sale discount from Yamaha.
2. The N2x and N1X are likely going to be announced at the end of the month.
3. Once that happens, I suspect the supply of "cheap" new N1 and N2s will be dried up, and we won't see deep discounts on the new models for a while.
4. The NV10 is expected to hit showrooms later this month or early Feb. My money says it'll be closer to the latter, or even EOQ.
5. The NV10 will likely be priced closer to the N2X, especially as it's brand new and very low-volume.
6. There is virtually no liquid used market for htbrids. They pop up infrequently and at high prices that don't seem justified given the risk and lack of support/warranty.

So waiting to try the NV10 (a rational and prudent move for anyone thinking of dropping $$$ on a hybrid) likely means you lose the opportunity to grab an N1 or N2 on sale, meaning you'll be paying closer to full price for the brand new model of whatever you choose. Or you sit and wait and take your chances with the used market.

And none of this takes into account the possibility of the new hybrid prices creeping into quality acoustic grand pricing. For me, there's probably a point ~13000-15000 where the difference from $10000 isn't huge, but gets so close to the price of a quality grand I just couldn't convince myself to spend it on a hybrid...

I think this works out pretty well for Kawai/Yamaha, but it puts potential buyers in a bit of a hard spot smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703716
01/10/18 03:43 PM
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I think Mr. Kawai should have worked for Mr. Yamaha a little while longer before deciding to leave and start his own company.

Preferably in the quality control division...


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703758
01/10/18 05:55 PM
01/10/18 05:55 PM
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I believe the NV10 will be priced around $13,000USD which is close to the N2/N2X. N1s I’ve seen new are still listed for $8000. I’m guessing most dealers would haggle down to $6500-$7000. I’ve got mine listed on Craigslist for $4000. It will be a great deal for someone.


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Pologuy] #2703761
01/10/18 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy
I think Mr. Kawai should have worked for Mr. Yamaha a little while longer before deciding to leave and start his own company.

Preferably in the quality control division...


I’ve never owned a Kawai digital piano but my RX-2 I had was very high quality. Are you implying Yamaha has better QC? If so, why? I don’t doubt Yamaha has extremely high quality products, I’ve owned many and still have my AvantGrand N1, which is very nice.


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703784
01/10/18 08:10 PM
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The issue of hybrid vs grand price keeps coming up. I just don't see this is a major factor. I'm guessing most of us (certainly me) would pay the extra money for a decent used grand if it was just a matter of cost.

I know I've said this before, but for me and others I think, the advantage of hybrids is that you can have a very close approximation of an acoustic grand playing experience in a spinet form factor, without humidity and tuning concerns. (I'll leave it to N3 owners to comment on why they selected that model over an acoustic grand, though the N3 is certainly a smaller footprint than all but the tiniest baby grands and it has the same environmental/tuning advantages).

Just because you might be able to find some sort of used baby grand for not much more than than the expected price of an NV10/N2X, doesn't enter into the decision. You'd buy the acoustic if you have the right place to put it. Some of us just can't have an acoustic grand in our living space. I had to pass up a free 1925 Steinway M last year due to not having space or proper environment for it. Would have cost me ~$20 for a rebuild, so not too much more than a hybrid. But wouldn't work in my house so I'm going for the best upright hybrid available in 2018. New N2s are available in my area for $8K, but that's a 2009 model and no longer the best available (I've found you remember what you don't like about something more than what you paid for it). Question is, will it be the N2X or the NV10?

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Pologuy] #2703791
01/10/18 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pologuy
I think Mr. Kawai should have worked for Mr. Yamaha a little while longer before deciding to leave and start his own company.

Preferably in the quality control division...


Pologuy, I don't quite see how your post is relevant to the NV10. However, you are correct in noting that Koichi Kawai, worked at Nippon Gakki (which would later become Yamaha Corporation) before establishing Kawai Musical Instrument Research Laboratory in 1927.

The following website has some nice background information for those interested in Kawai's history:

http://hamamatsu-daisuki.net/lan/en/greatmen/greatmen03.html

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2703794
01/10/18 08:49 PM
01/10/18 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoZac
I believe the NV10 will be priced around $13,000USD

I certainly hope not - at this price, it will bomb for sure.

Originally Posted by jfl
I'll leave it to N3 owners to comment on why they selected that model over an acoustic grand, though the N3 is certainly a smaller footprint than all but the tiniest baby grands and it has the same environmental/tuning advantages.

I am not an N3 owner - but I can share my experience shopping for it. When we visited Yamaha dealer with family, my spouse was much more enthusiastic about getting N3 over N2/N1 - because it will look so much more better as a piece of furniture. She is the interior decorator of the house - so that matters a lot.

Osho


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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: PianoZac] #2703811
01/10/18 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoZac
I believe the NV10 will be priced around $13,000USD


There is "no way" the NV10 will be priced anywhere near that.

That would be almost twice what it is priced at in Japan ($7,895 USD).




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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703814
01/10/18 10:10 PM
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I saw it advertised on a British website for £9,111. Do the roughly 1:1.35 £ to $ ratio and that comes out to be roughly $12,300USD. Why shouldn’t the NV10 be priced above the N1 considering it has an even nicer cabinet and speaker system, and if the N2 was $14,000+ and the N1 was $10,000? I would think it would be substantially more expensive than Kawai’s own CS11 which is $7,000+ .

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-novus-nv10-hybrid-digital-piano.ir

Last edited by PianoZac; 01/10/18 10:30 PM.

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Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703823
01/10/18 10:59 PM
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I'll retract my earlier post. You've all convinced me that price is clearly the most important thing...but I'd certainly pay a bit more for this model:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...find-stunning-hoard-gold-inside-treasure

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2703833
01/11/18 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jfl


Just because you might be able to find some sort of used baby grand for not much more than than the expected price of an NV10/N2X, doesn't enter into the decision.


While it probably shouldn't, it does matter to me, if anything to establish a psychological ceiling on what I consider worth the money. I won't argue that it isn't idiosyncratic thinking, but it's definitely on my mind.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703921
01/11/18 10:54 AM
01/11/18 10:54 AM
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jfl Offline
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I just don't see any value to the price discussion. There are really only two fully digital hybrid lines to pick from: Avantgrand and Novus. That's it.

If you insist on an acoustic action above all, and you want one this year, then your choices are:

Buy an N2 (or possibly N1) at the current discounted prices and live with the deficiencies. For me, the artificial damper resonance and noise gate, and to a lesser degree the available sample set, are deal breakers. Plus buying a 7 year old model on the eve of a new release just to save a bit of cash doesn't sit well.

Wait for the NV10 and N2X to be widely available. Try each. Read and listen to reviews. Try each again. Make a decision based on

1) Overall playing experience (action and sound)
2) Sample sets, features, configurability
3) Assessment of build quality and manufacturer quality control and support (this one's difficult but important)
4) Appearance
5) Price

The order of selection criteria is mine. Others may put price as #1

Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: jfl] #2703948
01/11/18 12:29 PM
01/11/18 12:29 PM
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Posts: 348
Milwaukee, WI
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Pologuy Offline
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Originally Posted by jfl
I just don't see any value to the price discussion. There are really only two fully digital hybrid lines to pick from: Avantgrand and Novus. That's it.

If you insist on an acoustic action above all, and you want one this year, then your choices are:

Buy an N2 (or possibly N1) at the current discounted prices and live with the deficiencies. For me, the artificial damper resonance and noise gate, and to a lesser degree the available sample set, are deal breakers. Plus buying a 7 year old model on the eve of a new release just to save a bit of cash doesn't sit well.

Wait for the NV10 and N2X to be widely available. Try each. Read and listen to reviews. Try each again. Make a decision based on

1) Overall playing experience (action and sound)
2) Sample sets, features, configurability
3) Assessment of build quality and manufacturer quality control and support (this one's difficult but important)
4) Appearance
5) Price

The order of selection criteria is mine. Others may put price as #1


First of all, many, many people are not lucky enough to be able to put price last on their list.

Second, many of the people commenting on here about the price - are taking into account all of your listed criteria

Many have just come to the conclusion (so far) that from what they know now the NV10 is not "worth", to them, what some are stating the list price might be.

Especially with the knowledge that the NV10 has a list price of $7,895 in the only place it is physically selling now - Japan.



Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
Re: Kawai NV10 ... interesting conversation [Re: Dave Horne] #2703951
01/11/18 12:33 PM
01/11/18 12:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 797
Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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The longer it takes for NV10 to be out in the market in sufficient quantity, the worse the price will be unfortunately. Pricing is all about what the market will bear and if Kawai is having challenge with manufacturing enough NV10s then they have no reason to price it aggressively to move it faster through the supply chain. The roll out so far has been so slow that I don't think there will be good pricing at the introduction.

All the more reason why I am thinking of getting a used grand acoustic now...

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
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