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Bluetooth and piano VSTs #2700191 12/28/17 03:53 PM
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TheodorN Offline OP
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You must be thinking, there's some kind of a Bluetooth epidemic going on here on Piano World, but here are my questions.

I just got a Jaybird Freedom Special Edition, and set it up for my phone. I'd like to try it on my desktop computer, but it seems it doesn't even support bluetooth. I know this has more to do with computers than piano, but just to explain everything as clearly as I can, I've looked at a few videos, and I can't find any evidence for bluetooth support in it.

Bluetooth availability is neither turning up in Settings - Devices - Bluetooth, Device Manager, nor when I try to add new hardware, as an option. Obviously, maybe, since it was among the first places I looked, no bluetooth devices were found when I searched in Action Center.

I have three questions.

1) Is it possible to use a bluetooth headset, with a digital piano, it's own voices, or playing a piano VST? I think I read some comments about huge latency when doing so.

2) Does Focusrite 2i4 support bluetooth? That's my main sound card, though I might use the internal sound card, Realtek Audio, if I need to in order to get bluetooth connectivity.

3) If the answer to either one of the first two questions is positive, should I get a bluetooth USB adapter, which I'll probably need? I know this is a very opinion based question, but just wondering if any of you would do so.

As a footnote, I got the Jaybird mostly for my mobile phone, but wanted to try it on my computer, both for playing music, and for playing my piano, if it's worth the hazzle!


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
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Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700216 12/28/17 05:37 PM
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ElmerJFudd Offline
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On the PC you are running piano software - does it have a Bluetooth radio to transmit to your new Bluetooth headphones? Typically you put the receiving device (your headphones) into pairing mode - typically by holding a button until a light flashes. Then on the PC you find the device by name in a list of Bluetooth devices that are near enough to connect to. When paired the PC will say connected and the headphone's flashing l light will stop flashing.

Don't know about your headphones, all manufacturers do it a little different, but the idea of a pairing mode and connecting is fairly universal. There is an App for tweaking the headphones to your liking - however this is not developed for Windows/OSX just for iOS and Android. But I am guessing that if the headphones follow the Bluetooth standards and if your PC has a working/compatible Bluetooth radio you should be able to pair.

With that said, you can listen to the piano VST, and you may find the latency (time between you playing a key and hearing it sound) is acceptable, but generally I have found Bluetooth to be a little slow.

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700224 12/28/17 05:58 PM
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TheodorN Offline OP
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There is no list of Bluetooth devices on my PC, even when I held the button on the earphones for four seconds, like it says in the manual. There isn't even a Bluetooth ON/OFF button in the Windows interface. My mobile phone finds the earphones immediately.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700248 12/28/17 07:13 PM
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MacMacMac Offline
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Not all PCs have bluetooth. How old is your PC?

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700253 12/28/17 07:29 PM
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Max_Forte Offline
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TheodorN

1. You will need Bluetooth Transmitter ( there are so many of them) https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Bluetooth-Stereo-Adapter-Transmitter/dp/B00RHKYX7W to connect to piano's headphone out. But you will experience latency higher than if you would use PC's onboard Realtek audio codec instead of using your Focusrite.
2. No, Focusrite 2i4 doesn't support bluetooth.
And in general: When you connect Bluetooth headphones to any device, digital (signal) to analog (sound) conversion is processing on headphones side (using headphones' built-in DAC)

It is not a good idea. Wireless devices are not for use in latency-sensitive realtime work.


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700254 12/28/17 07:34 PM
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TheodorN

Tip: If you don't have built-in WI-FI, then you don't have Bluetooth. Bluetooth use wireless network adapters.


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: Max_Forte] #2700269 12/28/17 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
TheodorN

Tip: If you don't have built-in WI-FI, then you don't have Bluetooth. Bluetooth use wireless network adapters.



This is the general case for recent laptops, but it's far from being universally true. You can absolutely have Bluetooth without WiFi, or vice versa. You can also add either or both via USB adapters or plug-in cards.

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700309 12/29/17 06:16 AM
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mcoll Offline
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Or you could get a BT transmitter that you could plug in the headphone output of the DAC and BT headphones on the receiving end.
However, personally I'm very skeptical on the results you would be getting.
The lowest latency BT technology available now is qualcomm's aptX low latency, and gives you a latency of ~40ms. Bot the transmiter and the receiver must be compatible. Normal BT devices have ~250ms latency. Even with the best technology, the numbers are still poor for piano playing.
Raise you buffer high enough (if you can) to get an extra 40ms in latency to what you are currently getting and see if you are willing to play that way. I'm pretty sure nobody would. At 10ms extra the difference is already quite bothering.

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700310 12/29/17 06:26 AM
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TheodorN Offline OP
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MacMacMac, the computer is seven or eight years old, 2nd gen processor, so it's almost certain it doesn't support Bluetooth, except with a USB adapter.

Max_Forte, if Bluetooth use wireless network adapters shouldn't my wireless WiFi USB network adapter pick it up, or do you mean I need a special adapter, only for Bluetooth connectivity?

Seems the general consensus is that the latency will be unbearable, so the question of getting a Bluetooth adapter, is becoming a non-issue. I don't think I would be satisfied with much more than 10 ms.

Though it would be nice to avoid one more cable, I don't have a huge problem with using wired headphones in my room, when I'm always in the same place, approximately.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: OregonJim] #2700312 12/29/17 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by OregonJim
Originally Posted by Max_Forte
TheodorN

Tip: If you don't have built-in WI-FI, then you don't have Bluetooth. Bluetooth use wireless network adapters.



This is the general case for recent laptops, but it's far from being universally true. You can absolutely have Bluetooth without WiFi, or vice versa. You can also add either or both via USB adapters or plug-in cards.


You wouldn't ask about existence of it, if you installed internal expansion card or connected usb dongle yourself, isn't it? Can you please tell me where can I purchaise separate (W/O Wi-Fi) "Bluetooth plug-in card " (PCI-E, M2, PCI, ISA - not USB)? It was a rhetorical question.

We can go further in technical depth but that's enough. smile

Cheers!


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700323 12/29/17 07:16 AM
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Max_Forte Offline
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TheodorN
You need a Bluetooth adapter


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700324 12/29/17 07:22 AM
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Max_Forte Offline
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And don't forget that:

1. TURNING OFF Bluetooth and Wi-Fi

2. Switcing PC in "High Performance" mode

are essential measures to take for a good realtime audio experience.


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700327 12/29/17 07:47 AM
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mcoll Offline
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Max_Forte and TheodorN, several posts above I took the time to give actual numbers in the best possible scenario. Read them and take your mind of piano playing with bluetooth headphones. Not possible at the current BT speeds. Max_Forte, there is no realtime audio via BT.
There was a thread a while back started by the forum owner which asked for a similar solution. The only solution for wireless headphones is via radio waves and there are some expensive sennheiser models. Otherwise the latency is unusable.

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: mcoll] #2700333 12/29/17 08:04 AM
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TheodorN Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Max_Forte and TheodorN, several posts above I took the time to give actual numbers in the best possible scenario. Read them and take your mind of piano playing with bluetooth headphones. Not possible at the current BT speeds.

I read your numbers, and I appreciate this information, got your point completely the first time. That's why I said bluetooth was becoming a non-issue, meaning I am indeed taking my mind off piano through bluetooth.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700349 12/29/17 09:24 AM
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mcoll Offline
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Oh, I wasn't sure you saw it, but I'm pretty sure Max didn't smile Thanks for the response!

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700466 12/29/17 04:46 PM
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Just before everyone writes off Bluetooth, we need to be reminded that Bluetooth Audio is quite different to Bluetooth Midi. Forget Bluetooth Audio for piano VSTs it’s too slow. Bluetooth Midi - where your keyboard transmits midi via Bluetooth LE is fast enough to not be a problem and it’s particularly good with iPad/iPhone keyboard apps. Some discussion on the Audiobus forum here for more information https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/19128/bluetooth-midi-whats-your-experience#latest
You still need a wired connection at the Audio receiving end for headphones or speakers.
There are lots of new midi keyboards hitting the market that are Bluetooth midi enabled and you can retrofit older keyboards with the right adaptors.

Last edited by Jonky Ponky; 12/29/17 04:58 PM.
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700676 12/30/17 01:42 PM
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ElmerJFudd Offline
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I've found Bluetooth midi to be increasingly slow with distance.

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: mcoll] #2700717 12/30/17 04:26 PM
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Max_Forte Offline
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mcoll

I'm agree with you. Can't see where I wrote opposite. smile


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2700739 12/30/17 05:28 PM
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What's wrong with a wired connection? After all the piano isn't going anywhere, so wireless portability doesn't mean much.
Don't they make a dock for the Iphone? Leave the dock on the piano and just drop the Iphone into it when you want to connect.
No bluetooth. No worries.
Is there such a dock???

Re: Bluetooth and piano VSTs [Re: TheodorN] #2701096 01/01/18 02:27 AM
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mcoll Offline
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Max, I was pretty sure you missed the point when you said "you need a Bluetooth adapter" after what I wrote.
Anyhow, wires all the way. Just do some good cable management and it's not so bad afterwards smile

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