Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Thoughts about practicing classical music on digital pianos

A little background, here an old post of mine:
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2582289/Searchpage/1/Main/177307/Words/%2Bvpc1/Search/true/re-is-classical-music-playable-on-digital-piano.html#Post2582289

Since then, I bought a Kawai VPC1, and practiced on it extensively.

At the neginning I felt great relief with the VPC1 relatively to how the Casio action felt to me.
But after 7.5 months with the VPC1, I gave up on digital pianos.

I think the VPC1 is a very good piano like digital keyboard, considering the fact that after all it is just a digital keyboard.

I'd even say that the VPC1 allowing me to play piano at my current pianistic level, more or less, which IMO a great achievement for a digital keyboard.

But, to make a progress on that instrument, to build a proper technique on it, well, that's another story.

As I make (small) progresses in my piano studies, I become more and more sensitive, and it took me a while to really feel it, but the VPC1, after all, doesn't feel like a real piano.

A virtuoso pianist will not have a problem to play anything on the VPC1, I'm sure about that, but one - I'm certainly not a virtuoso, far from that, and two - I saw on YouTube pianists playing advanced classical repertoire on much worse keyboards than the VPC1, virtuosu can play anything on anything.

A little background about me:
I'm not considering myself as a serious pianist, I'm a guitarist who play piano as a second instrument(although I whish I was an advanced pianist, I love the instrument).
And that's lead me to add my teacher view about digital pianos:
I asked my teacher once "how all those pianists on YouTube manage to play advanced piano repertoire perfectly on digital pianos", his answer was "If I'll give you a cheap unregulated guitar with buzzing strings, you will still manage to play on it, because you are an extensively trained guitarist".
Basically my teachers thinks that all those pianists who perform advanced classical repertoire perfectly on (sometimes cheap) digital pianos, was been through comprehensive classical training on acoustic pianos before that, and that someone at my level should practice mainly on an acoustic piano.

As I said in my old post, I think digital pianos are useful for reading and memorizing notes, and for practicing things that are not technical, like improvising for example, but all in all, trying to build proper piano technique and to face technical difficulties on my VPC1 just feels like a waste of time for me at this point.

And I don't think other digital piano will do better, if I'll buy now higher end digital piano, its action may feel more realistic to me at the beginning, but eventually I'm pretty sure that any digital piano will let me down and I'll always be back to acoustic pianos.

I hope you will bother to read all this, and eager to see what you think.

Digital vs. acoustic really depends on your goals and your budget. We have had many discussions on this topic before so you might want to do a search. In a nut shell and adding my own opinions, a poor digital is better than nothing. A very good digital piano is better than a poor acoustic piano. A top of the line acoustic is indescribably fine. A poor pianist can make a top of the line acoustic sound terrible. An excellent pianist can make a very good digital sound pretty good. Combine a top notch pianist with a top notch, well maintained concert grand and the experience will boggle your mind.

If, as you say, you are not a serious pianist, I think it makes sense for the determining factor to be your budget. If you decide you want to learn advanced, classical piano at a high level, then start saving for a fine acoustic. There are things you can do with a top of the line acoustic, (voicing, tone), that, IMO, are unmatched by even the best digital.

My personal experience: I banged away on a terrible acoustic piano for 45 years until finally, I was able to afford a Steinway. The difference it made in my technique and subtle expression was/is, IMO, dramatic. I brought my more portable digital Yamaha with me on vacation so I could keep up with my practicing and I began to think my Liszt Sonetto was sounding pretty good. Then I got home. When I returned to my beloved Steinway, I was horrified at the damage caused by what I could not hear or produce on the digital. Now, I reluctantly use my digital when I'm learning notes and someone is asleep. Otherwise, I avoid it.

Playing with a music group I don't have a choice with a portable Yamaha 88. You can take it anywhere. The foot pedal that people use most often is the right sustain and gets carried around. At home it is sitting on a stand and plugged into more foot pedals. Living in a high-rise building there is the problem of bringing a piano into an elevator.

Unless you are on stage performing when an acoustic is a must, a good keyboard all boiled down to the piano sound being tolerable and the graded hammer action of the keys (simulation of the hammer feel of an acoustic).

Nowadays there are hybrid pianos like the Yamaha NU1 & Casio Celviano GP300 & 500 co-developed with Bechstein piano. These have the same hammer action as an acoustic with the convenience of not having to tune regularly and different sound effects of an electronic. The hybrids can cost as much as an acoustic upright but have more options when playing.

Yes, at my experience, the sound of any software piano(on board or not), is always awkward behaving, in addition to the fact that it is artificial sounding.

Here something I experienced lately:
I'm practicing Chopin Reculotionary Etude for quite awhile now, I'm not expecting to play it in a concert level and definitely not in concert tempo in the near future, and by now I learned only half of the piece.
But lately I managed to get to a point that after warm up, in a good day, I can play it fast and good enough so one would be able to recognize the musicality of this piece in my playing, and with not many mistakes.

Since I got the VPC1 I practiced this piece partly on my acoustic piano and partly on the VPC1.
In about the last two weeks I practiced this piece only on the VPC1.
After a week or so, it felt like I'm only becoming worse at performing this piece from day to day.
Then yesterday I finally practiced this piece on my acoustic piano, and after an hour or so, I managed to get back to my real performance level.
After practicing the piece on the acoustic piano, I managed to play it on the VPC1 again.
I think I can translate the progress I make on my acoustic piano to the VPC1, but the vice versa doesn't work for me.

I feel it is just much easier to play something as complex and difficult as Chopin Reculotionary Etude on a real hammer action mechanism keyboard of an acoustic piano, rather than on the VPC1 and its spongy feeling action.






I think it is really OK to gig with a digital piano, but I'm talking about fundamental piano studies.

I’m sure you are correct and I would love to have an acoustic one day but until the finances improve I’m progressing on my Alesis.

Maybe a great pianist can play anything on anything. However I feel I became a much better pianist after I finally got myself a grand acoustic piano after practicing years on an upright. I do also own a digital and think they can be very helpful in learning because they can allow you to practice more. But for learning to handle complicated harmonies, pedalling and voicing and learning to play difficult things tension free a grand piano was a big leap for me. We have what we have but I think if you have the means it's worth to get the best acoustic possible.

I use my digital piano for silent practicing with headphones so I spare my wife the pain of listening to me stumbling through a new piece or endlessly repeating a difficult passage! Once the piece/passage is somewhat listenable, then I continue on my acoustic piano.

I used to be a huge piano snob. I would say stuff like "Oh, this digital piano makes X, Y, or Z technical things impossible."

Then I noticed my teacher was capable of playing anything on my digital piano just as well as she did on an acoustic, which led me to do a bit of soul searching. She could also play on an upright, crappy bar piano, etc, far better than I could on a Steinway grand.

While I will still admit an acoustic grand is best, I realized that if you are having a problem playing a piece on a quality digital instrument (I have a Kawai CA51) it's just that the digital piano is highlighting a weakness in your technique. In my case, I did not have really great finger independence or control, and the heavier keys of an acoustic made it easier for me to avoid mistakes.

Nowadays, I can play anything pretty much equally on either. I do most of my learning on a digital though. The only downside I noticed is that my stamina can lack when I play a newly learned piece on a heavy acoustic, but that is fixed within a week or so of acoustic practice.

Sure, we've all been there I guess. But consider this: It often takes a skillful pianist to hear the subtle differences on the quality of playing and sound. To be able to play something does not necessarily mean one is fully satisfied with the result. Depends on the music as well. So it's not necessarily just snobbery.

Have you tried Yamaha AvantGrand N1/N2 or N3? I would love to hear what you (and others who practice on acoustic grand mainly) think of these.

Osho

My teacher has a Yamaha G1 baby grand. I play on a Roland LX-17. I prefer my digital, because I feel, my digital is more expressive and easier to control than her grand. I have been taking lessons with her for 1 year, and for the record I feel she is an excellent teacher, but I hate her piano, and with every lesson I dread playing on her acoustic grand. I give her my recordings of the pieces I am learning because they are much better than when I play on her piano.

You guys here can correct me, but I have read the longer the strings the more dynamic range you have which translates into more expressiveness at the keyboard?

The LX-17 and other high end digitals are simulating high end grands. Every piano keyboard built feels different, even if it's the same model so in my mind it depends on the instrument as to what we can get out of it. Of course also the quality of the software sampling, but most of your high end DP's are pretty good at this, and selection is a personal preference as to what we want to hear out of our DP.

The artists who showcase the high end digitals, play far above my level, so I have a long ways to go before I can say that a DP is not good enough for me at the moment. I also have an RD-2000, which is the same keyboard as my LX-17, and when I play for various events around my community, I take my RD-2000 which is wonderful simply because I don't have to adapt to some lousy acoustic piano that has not been maintained properly, which in my experience is the majority of them that I have run into. I eliminated that problem.

All of the above being said, would I like to own a quality acoustic. YES, but I won't own one unless I just love it to pieces, and the ones I have played that I love to pieces are $40,000 plus. I refuse to buy one that I don't LOVE. Everything under that range and my LX-17 competes favorably with the cheaper acoustic grands.

I am not a professional pianist, so I will defer to others who are and have no bone to pick in this discussion, just stating my personal experience.

I think this says it all, and also regarding the thread on piano actions. If your technique is right then the piano you play on won't be too much of a problem. But obviously a good action and dynamic range comparable with a good acoustic is what you should aim for.

Lots of scales and arpeggios, lots of practice - it takes time and patience if you aren't a youngster!

My music school opened a digital piano and music technology lab about three-and-a-half minutes after I graduated, so all that was not part of my formal training. I did get a lot of experience playing acoustic everything from pure, PSO junk to concert instruments. You learn to coax out whatever music is left in an instrument. It's not a particular piano's fault that you have to play it.

That said, some instruments make you feel stupid as a player.

Exactly. "Controlling" a quality grand is akin to riding a thoroughbred horse. It's sensitive, subtle, flies like the wind and takes great skill to control. It also has a lot more to give. If you view your lack of control on the grand as a challenge to overcome, rather than something to avoid, you might greatly improve your playing.

I don't understand all the mechanics of it but I believe longer strings will cause more sympathetic vibrations of the other strings. Compare the sound of a C1 on a Steinway 9 foot to a C1 on a smaller piano or digital. It growls. String length plus longer keys and quality pedal mechanisms will give you greater dynamic range and more color. I'm no expert so I'm sure I've left some things out. Playing a prepped concert grand, like a Steinway D, will transform your expectations and make you humble about your own technique.

My teacher has a 9 foot Steinway in his studio. Even though I practice on a 6 foot Steinway at home, I have to concentrate hard to get some control over his monster and understand its dynamic range. His piano is so sensitive, it shows all my flaws, which is both good and embarrassing! It also gives me an inkling of how to produce subtle tone and color changes. If I'm really lucky, my teacher will demonstrate and blow my mind. Rather than hating his piano, I view playing on it as a test of my abilities. I wish I could practice on his piano. I think my skill would vastly improve.

I don't know whether you carefully read my original post, but what you are saying is not conflicting with what I said, vice versa, it perfectly settles with my original post and strengthen my point.


Of course playing on digital pianos emphasize the weak poinst of our technique, because as my teacher says, playing on a digital piano is like playing on an invalid piano, and that's why it is a lot more difficult to play on it, and as my teacher says you have to build your foundation on a valid instrument.
And of course your teacher can play anything on a digital piano, after she already trained on acoustic piano to a pro level.

Look at my teacher example about guitars and guitarists, same point.
It's one thing to see a pro level player perform on an invalid instrument, and other thing for a beginner to be trained mostly on an invalid instrument.

If I'm not mistaken those instruments fulfill a real acoustic piano mechanism, I assume it is much better than any digital piano with fake piano action.

Yes, you are quite right - hence I would like to hear your opinion on how close you feel with acoustic pianos with these instruments if you get a chance to play them.

Osho

I had to downsize from a high-end acoustic upright (Yamaha U3) and have been shopping for a digital piano for some time - just bought one, a Kawai CA 78.

I think the biggest difference between digital and acoustic pianos is not action per se, but that they produce sound in such fundamentally different ways: metal strings and wood resonators vibrating in a physical space vs. piano-like sound played on a speaker system. hag01, I think what you are talking about is that, at some point, a pianist must develop an intuitive understanding of the mechanism by which the piano produces the sound; and that needs be developed on an acoustic, if your goal is to play music by masters like Chopin and Liszt that were written for an acoustic piano. That makes a lot of sense, although I can imagine a high-end modelled piano like Epee's LX-17 getting one further along that way than a standard digital.

I also think it's not just with super-difficult pieces that such intuition comes to matter. Although my skills are nowhere as advanced as the OPs, already in something like Chopin's A major Prelude I can see things I could do on my Yamaha, that I will probably find lacking in the digital. One way I might rationalise my choice of the CA 78 is that I chose a piano whose "way of playing" most closely matched the intuition I developed as an acoustic player.

By the way - the VPC1 is not a piano by itself but is a MIDI controller. I think the rest of the system matters a lot for what you can get out of the instrument. How was yours set up?

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So you believe that can't learn to play the piano on a digital instrument!?

VPC1 + RME Babyface PRO audio interface + Pianoteq.

And I think you are right, while playing on acoustic I kinda feel the hammers movements when pressing on the keys.