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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Gombessa] #2692681
11/28/17 04:11 PM
11/28/17 04:11 PM
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Posts: 3,272
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spanishbuddha Online content
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Interesting. IIRC the optical sensor module on the GranTouch/AvantGrands are quite visible with the outer covers removed. I think it would be pretty easy to confirm the existence (or lack thereof) of hammer sensors on the NU1...

There are no optical sensors for the hammers on the NU1. I have the service manual and observed the technicIan when mine was serviced.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692701
11/28/17 05:13 PM
11/28/17 05:13 PM
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karvala Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
All I'm saying is that they have a natural and inevitable limitation as far as repetition goes. It is far easier to notice a sudden loud note (NU1, Silent series) than a quieter or absent one (acoustic upright). I had an upright for a while (a decent new one). I could easily get it to block.


I can get my Yamaha upright to block as well if I try, so it's certainly possible. But the much greater prominence of the loud note is unfortunately exactly the problem, and I think it would have made more sense if some attempt had been made to get around this. Even an optional switch which triggers an algorithm along the lines of: if speed>X & amplitude_change>Y, then do not sound. Sure, not everyone would want it on, but I think such an algorithm could reliably catch this and only this situation, i.e. it wouldn't start interfering with normal playing, it would be easy to implement electronically and if made optional, it wouldn't offend the purists.

Last edited by karvala; 11/28/17 05:15 PM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: karvala] #2692705
11/28/17 05:22 PM
11/28/17 05:22 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by EssBrace
All I'm saying is that they have a natural and inevitable limitation as far as repetition goes. It is far easier to notice a sudden loud note (NU1, Silent series) than a quieter or absent one (acoustic upright). I had an upright for a while (a decent new one). I could easily get it to block.


I can get my Yamaha upright to block as well if I try, so it's certainly possible. But the much greater prominence of the loud note is unfortunately exactly the problem, and I think it would have made more sense if some attempt had been made to get around this. Even an optional switch which triggers an algorithm along the lines of: if speed>X & amplitude_change>Y, then do not sound. Sure, not everyone would want it on, but I think such an algorithm could reliably catch this and only this situation, i.e. it wouldn't start interfering with normal playing, it would be easy to implement electronically and if made optional, it wouldn't offend the purists.


Karvala,

I think that would be a really great solution. If it reacted like an acoustic upright, and acted as a dead key, instead of playing a loud note, I would be happy with that.

As an update - I have been contacted by someone at Yamaha over the phone and they are taking all of my information into account, and going to get back to me.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692707
11/28/17 05:25 PM
11/28/17 05:25 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Originally Posted by Egorbopol

As an update - I have been contacted by someone at Yamaha over the phone and they are taking all of my information into account, and going to get back to me.


Please keep us posted on how it goes. As a potential N2X buyer - I am very interested in how Yamaha deals with this issue.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Embertone Walker D Full/Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Osho] #2692710
11/28/17 05:36 PM
11/28/17 05:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
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spanishbuddha Online content
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Egorbopol

As an update - I have been contacted by someone at Yamaha over the phone and they are taking all of my information into account, and going to get back to me.


Please keep us posted on how it goes. As a potential N2X buyer - I am very interested in how Yamaha deals with this issue.

Osho

If the N2X is the same or uses the same design as the N2 sensors it will not have the problem. The N1/2/3 and the current X derivatives uses a hammer and key sensor.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692714
11/28/17 05:43 PM
11/28/17 05:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,409
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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Vught, The Netherlands
This issue is just with the upright action sensors. I've never encountered anything untoward playing my N3.

I played the NU1 in Amsterdam a few years ago and had that issue happen to me. At the time I assumed the problem was with me, now I know otherwise.

Having written that, it wouldn't stop me from buying one. I look at these pianos as excellent practice pianos. I've given thought over the years of buying the NU1 simply because it's more difficult to play than the N series.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692792
11/29/17 01:55 AM
11/29/17 01:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,631
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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A question:

If the cause of the "loud note" problem is "blocking" of the action, during fast repeats and trills:

. . . It should be possible to demonstrate the effect, by deliberately using "poor technique" to elicit it.

Has anyone tried to do that on an NU1 or NU1X, and succeeded?

Thanks --


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692873
11/29/17 11:41 AM
11/29/17 11:41 AM
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Wow. I works bit have imagined that a real acoustic hammer action would utilize only key sensors and no hammer sensors. Incredible. Even mid-range DPs puts sensors on hangers rather than keys.

Of course, the NU1 performs rather admirably given this limitation, but still, it seems rather unnecessary in the end, especially since the problem had been exposed to great degree in the last generation and there has been ample time to address it.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
A question:

If the cause of the "loud note" problem is "blocking" of the action, during fast repeats and trills:

. . . It should be possible to demonstrate the effect, by deliberately using "poor technique" to elicit it.

Has anyone tried to do that on an NU1 or NU1X, and succeeded?

Thanks --


My guess is that it's not that easy. I can't say that I've ever run into this ish on the NU1. There have definitely been instances where I have had spurious loud notesz but these have typically been accompanied by of action mechanics, which I have also experienced in acoustic uprights, so they seem to be realistic behavior to me.

I think it's a very specific timing situation that depends on the inertia of the keys and hammer, so it's hard to reproduce or capture in a model.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692879
11/29/17 12:13 PM
11/29/17 12:13 PM
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Chewbacca Offline
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Are the off notes sent at a higher-than-expected velocity or maximum velocity? (hooking a NU1 to a VST would allow to confirm this easily). If the latter then this (non-)issue has probably multiple factors, as I don't see how the sensor positioned at key level would send systematically the highest possible velocity.

FWIW, my grand AP had a silent system retrofitted with sensors on the keybed (QuietTime). When doing fast trills / repetition it results in notes dropping rather than loud notes (basically the piano has to be played like an upright when in silent mode).

Cheers,
C

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Chewbacca] #2692897
11/29/17 01:40 PM
11/29/17 01:40 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Chewbacca
Are the off notes sent at a higher-than-expected velocity or maximum velocity? (hooking a NU1 to a VST would allow to confirm this easily). If the latter then this (non-)issue has probably multiple factors, as I don't see how the sensor positioned at key level would send systematically the highest possible velocity.

FWIW, my grand AP had a silent system retrofitted with sensors on the keybed (QuietTime). When doing fast trills / repetition it results in notes dropping rather than loud notes (basically the piano has to be played like an upright when in silent mode).

Cheers,
C


Chewbacca,

I think it's probably more so a higher-than-expected velocity. However after it happens, I'll commonly strike that note afterwards hard, to try and match how loud it played, and I have to strike really hard to match it. I can't be sure however that it's max volume.

The way your grand AP silent system mutes the note instead, sounds like a better solution in my opinion.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692905
11/29/17 02:25 PM
11/29/17 02:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 147
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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I am getting what I call this "CLANG" issue on my new NU1X (I've had it for two weeks): note sounds 2 or 3x as loud as expected. I get a CLANG, sometimes not at all in half an hour of playing, sometimes after just a few minutes. Different notes each time.

Yamaha tech came yesterday to address the Issue. He took out each key and cleaned (with alcohol and Q-tip and microfiber cloth) a small sensor tab ("shutter") on the underside of each. It is about the size of my thumbnail and its translucency is graduated from clear to dark. As I understand it, the moving shutter trips two light beams below the keys, and the difference between the two resulting signals indicates key-strike velocity. If one signal fails, the other makes it default to maximum volume. He said that the NU1 (unlike N1, N2, N3 AvantGrands) does not have hammer sensors (and, as far I have have heard, they do not have this problem).

Ten minutes after he left yesterday, I got another CLANG. I am disappointed; I got this piano hoping to be able to practice (silently, without bothering the neighbors) the expressiveness and nuance that my teacher attempts to impart. So much for "real acoustic action"! This piano is not staying, and I am back to piano-shopping. What should I get?

Last edited by Qwerty53; 11/29/17 02:45 PM. Reason: Added X = NU1X

”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Qwerty53] #2692907
11/29/17 02:33 PM
11/29/17 02:33 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Qwerty53
I am getting what I call this "CLANG" issue on my new NU1 (I've had it for two weeks): note sounds 2 or 3x as loud as expected. I get a CLANG, sometimes not at all in half an hour of playing, sometimes after just a few minutes. Different notes each time.

Yamaha tech came yesterday to address the Issue. He took out each key and cleaned (with alcohol and Q-tip and microfiber cloth) a small sensor tab ("shutter") on the underside of each. It is about the size of my thumbnail and its translucency is graduated from clear to dark. As I understand it, the moving shutter trips two light beams below the keys, and the difference between the two resulting signals indicates key-strike velocity. If one signal fails, the other makes it default to maximum volume. He said that the NU1 (unlike N1, N2, N3 AvantGrands) does not have hammer sensors (and, as far I have have heard, they do not have this problem).

Ten minutes after he left yesterday, I got another CLANG. I am disappointed; I got this piano hoping to be able to practice (silently, without bothering the neighbors) the expressiveness and nuance that my teacher attempts to impart. So much for "real acoustic action"! This piano is not staying, and I am back to piano-shopping. What should I get?


Wow I'm really sorry to hear that Qwerty.

I'm also very disappointed , because at this price point, I was very impressed with the Nu1x. It sounds and feels great, it's unfortunate we're having these issues.

My hopes is that I can return this unit, and save a bit of money and upgrade to the N2(x). From what i've read, and as you mentioned, they don't have these problems. I also think the grand action > upright action of the Nu1's.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692911
11/29/17 02:51 PM
11/29/17 02:51 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Originally Posted by Egorbopol

I'm also very disappointed , because at this price point, I was very impressed with the Nu1x. It sounds and feels great, it's unfortunate we're having these issues.


Very unfortunate indeed. NU1X is simply not an acceptable Piano due to this defect.

Waiting for N2X and Novus NV10 !!

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Embertone Walker D Full/Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692912
11/29/17 02:51 PM
11/29/17 02:51 PM
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Posts: 147
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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My neighbor has what I think is an N2 (four years old and it probably cost twice what I paid for my NU1X). She loves it, after a lifetime of playing her two Steinways, which I consider a fairly demanding standard of comparison!


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692920
11/29/17 03:08 PM
11/29/17 03:08 PM
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Posts: 147
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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To add a bit of data for our resident diagnosticians: this unexpected loudness can occur whether or not I am trying to trill or repeat the note.


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692947
11/29/17 04:33 PM
11/29/17 04:33 PM
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Posts: 147
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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Salish Sea
Okay, so, I have the choice of swapping for a different unit, trade-up, or take a refund and start shopping again. Advice, anyone?


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Qwerty53] #2692949
11/29/17 04:41 PM
11/29/17 04:41 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Qwerty53
Okay, so, I have the choice of swapping for a different unit, trade-up, or take a refund and start shopping again. Advice, anyone?


That's nice to hear. I hope they call me back and give me that very same option. if so, I'll be taking a full refund and saving to get an N2.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692968
11/29/17 05:49 PM
11/29/17 05:49 PM
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Posts: 147
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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Good luck! If you go for a different piano, what are you considering?


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692969
11/29/17 05:50 PM
11/29/17 05:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,300
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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I think we all wish you well on that one! Dammit, I really fancied that piano myself . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Qwerty53] #2692975
11/29/17 06:16 PM
11/29/17 06:16 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Qwerty53
Good luck! If you go for a different piano, what are you considering?


The Novus NV10 sounds great, I'm interested to see more information and reactions from people who have played it. I'm not sure if I'll be able to afford that just yet either though wink Other than that, nothing else has really stood out to me besides the N series Yamaha's.

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