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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: EssBrace] #2692573
11/28/17 10:05 AM
11/28/17 10:05 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
This appears in the Silent piano manuals from Yamaha:

"When I play a rapid series of notes in Silent PianoTM mode, a loud sound is emitted that is not part of the performance.
- This is not a fault. The structure of the Silent PianoTM causes this to occur in some cases."


OK, so this is a real upright piano, but the problem is found only in Silent PianoTM mode, not in the acoustic mode. There's nothing like "the structure of real piano TM causes problems". So, again, Yamaha haven't implemented their Silent and AG detection for upright actions in the best possible way. OK, they admit it but it's still below (already lower) upright action standards.

Last edited by CyberGene; 11/28/17 10:06 AM.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692577
11/28/17 10:12 AM
11/28/17 10:12 AM
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EssBrace Offline
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Right, well we have established that the reason is the issues involved in sensing hammer throw on an upright action. Yamaha is not implementing that maybe because it is practically impossible or just very expensive to do so. So the keys are sensed and those sensors cannot 'know' that the action has blocked and the weight of the action is not on that particular key so it plays very light and so emits a much louder tone.

That's the reason. Yamaha have their position on it. Potential buyers will make whatever decisions they want to. End of story.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692600
11/28/17 12:02 PM
11/28/17 12:02 PM
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The blocking on the upright typically occurs when the hammer isn't caught properly by the backcheck. This normally happens on louder notes and when the key is held down as it'll have sufficient momentum rebounding from the string to resist the friction between the catcher and the backcheck felt. Because the key is held down it also means the jack is lifted back off the hammer butt so also won't prevent the hammer rebounding. As a result the jack ends wedged right at the top of the butt (snigger) and the only way to reset is to release the key a fairly substantial way.

This, I think, is what leads to the 'you always need to release the key fully to repeat notes on an upright' myth.

This tends to be more noticeable in worn actions and so much of this can be avoided by tightening up the regulation, specifically reducing the let off distance and adjusting the back check. If you push this too far then there's a risk of 'note bobbling' during soft playing as the hammer will bounce back off the back check/jack for a second strike so there's a balance to be met but I think many uprights a quite a bit shy of that limit.

Re the Nu1(x) problem, is it simply related to the key sensor? I can't imagine the key would descend all that much faster when the hammer is wedged back like that, you may not be pressing the weight of the hammer, but there's still the weight of the rest of the action, including the damper. I was under the impression the occasional loud note was a maximum volume one, not just a bit louder.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Bambers] #2692603
11/28/17 12:11 PM
11/28/17 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bambers

Re the Nu1(x) problem, is it simply related to the key sensor? I can't imagine the key would descend all that much faster when the hammer is wedged back like that, you may not be pressing the weight of the hammer, but there's still the weight of the rest of the action, including the damper. I was under the impression the occasional loud note was a maximum volume one, not just a bit louder.


Assuming the NU1 action is wired up similarly to the N1/2/3, there are continuous optical sensors on both the keys as well as the hammer in order to sense velocity. So I would expect that they would (should?) be able to detect the hammer velocity regardless of the state of the rest of the action.

I've always wondered what the AvantGrand's optical key sensors do....most DPs sense either key or hammer velocity, and I'm not sure how Yamaha uses/combines the data from both in the AG's case.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692605
11/28/17 12:19 PM
11/28/17 12:19 PM
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You need key sensors to establish damper position/note off. Hammer sensors would be more accurate for the note on part than inferring it from key travel.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692608
11/28/17 12:23 PM
11/28/17 12:23 PM
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Key sensors on some digital pianos work because the so called "hammers" are linked to keys and can't be thrown freely, they move together with the key, and the key will bottom out together with the hammer due to the inertia of the hammer, even if you lift your fingers early. However using key sensors only on a real action seems silly.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692615
11/28/17 12:42 PM
11/28/17 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
You need key sensors to establish damper position/note off. Hammer sensors would be more accurate for the note on part than inferring it from key travel.


Ah of course. Thanks Bambers, that makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Key sensors on some digital pianos work because the so called "hammers" are linked to keys and can't be thrown freely, they move together with the key, and the key will bottom out together with the hammer due to the inertia of the hammer, even if you lift your fingers early. However using key sensors only on a real action seems silly.


I do want to note that even in boards where the hammer is not linked to the keys, a fully depressed key usually results in a fully-actuated hammer (there is no rebound) if the key is fully depressed.

So if note-on is determined by the hammer sensor, what is going on with the N1X? A continuous sensor should be able to detect proper hammer velocity at any given time, eliminating "false" strikes. This makes it sound like the root cause is in software.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692620
11/28/17 12:50 PM
11/28/17 12:50 PM
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I have nothing to contribute to the OP and others who have encountered this problem. But I am a very happy NU1 owner going on 5 years. It’s just a great practice piano. I also play regularly on my teachers grand, its action is worse than that of my NU1 but that’s a question of age and regulation. I have, touch wood, never had this sudden loud note problem, at least with the piano voice; with the harpsichord voice which has a fixed sound level the key action can produce extraneous or unwanted notes, but I put that down to my own clumsy playing. I recently had my NU1 serviced under warranty, sensors cleaned and recalibrated, still no spurious loud notes. Maybe it’s my lack of technique and choice of piano music. My only GAS since owning it, despite some temptations from Roland and Kawai, has been for an N2. As I say, this is of no help to those who have encountered the problem, but there are some happy owners.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Gombessa] #2692638
11/28/17 01:40 PM
11/28/17 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Assuming the NU1 action is wired up similarly to the N1/2/3, there are continuous optical sensors on both the keys as well as the hammer in order to sense velocity. So I would expect that they would (should?) be able to detect the hammer velocity regardless of the state of the rest of the action.


I don't think this is right. Yamaha's material mentions optical hammer sensors on their silent grands and AvantGrands, but, rather pointedly in my opinion, does not mention hammer sensors on upright actions. To my mind the lack of hammer sensor provides a workable explanation for this problem. If we presume there is a hammer sensor then the problem is unfathomable. To suggest it is software related must be nonsense because they'd just fix it wouldn't they?


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692647
11/28/17 02:25 PM
11/28/17 02:25 PM
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Interesting. IIRC the optical sensor module on the GranTouch/AvantGrands are quite visible with the outer covers removed. I think it would be pretty easy to confirm the existence (or lack thereof) of hammer sensors on the NU1...


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Gombessa] #2692681
11/28/17 04:11 PM
11/28/17 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Interesting. IIRC the optical sensor module on the GranTouch/AvantGrands are quite visible with the outer covers removed. I think it would be pretty easy to confirm the existence (or lack thereof) of hammer sensors on the NU1...

There are no optical sensors for the hammers on the NU1. I have the service manual and observed the technicIan when mine was serviced.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692701
11/28/17 05:13 PM
11/28/17 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
All I'm saying is that they have a natural and inevitable limitation as far as repetition goes. It is far easier to notice a sudden loud note (NU1, Silent series) than a quieter or absent one (acoustic upright). I had an upright for a while (a decent new one). I could easily get it to block.


I can get my Yamaha upright to block as well if I try, so it's certainly possible. But the much greater prominence of the loud note is unfortunately exactly the problem, and I think it would have made more sense if some attempt had been made to get around this. Even an optional switch which triggers an algorithm along the lines of: if speed>X & amplitude_change>Y, then do not sound. Sure, not everyone would want it on, but I think such an algorithm could reliably catch this and only this situation, i.e. it wouldn't start interfering with normal playing, it would be easy to implement electronically and if made optional, it wouldn't offend the purists.

Last edited by karvala; 11/28/17 05:15 PM.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: karvala] #2692705
11/28/17 05:22 PM
11/28/17 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by EssBrace
All I'm saying is that they have a natural and inevitable limitation as far as repetition goes. It is far easier to notice a sudden loud note (NU1, Silent series) than a quieter or absent one (acoustic upright). I had an upright for a while (a decent new one). I could easily get it to block.


I can get my Yamaha upright to block as well if I try, so it's certainly possible. But the much greater prominence of the loud note is unfortunately exactly the problem, and I think it would have made more sense if some attempt had been made to get around this. Even an optional switch which triggers an algorithm along the lines of: if speed>X & amplitude_change>Y, then do not sound. Sure, not everyone would want it on, but I think such an algorithm could reliably catch this and only this situation, i.e. it wouldn't start interfering with normal playing, it would be easy to implement electronically and if made optional, it wouldn't offend the purists.


Karvala,

I think that would be a really great solution. If it reacted like an acoustic upright, and acted as a dead key, instead of playing a loud note, I would be happy with that.

As an update - I have been contacted by someone at Yamaha over the phone and they are taking all of my information into account, and going to get back to me.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692707
11/28/17 05:25 PM
11/28/17 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Egorbopol

As an update - I have been contacted by someone at Yamaha over the phone and they are taking all of my information into account, and going to get back to me.


Please keep us posted on how it goes. As a potential N2X buyer - I am very interested in how Yamaha deals with this issue.

Osho


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Osho] #2692710
11/28/17 05:36 PM
11/28/17 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Egorbopol

As an update - I have been contacted by someone at Yamaha over the phone and they are taking all of my information into account, and going to get back to me.


Please keep us posted on how it goes. As a potential N2X buyer - I am very interested in how Yamaha deals with this issue.

Osho

If the N2X is the same or uses the same design as the N2 sensors it will not have the problem. The N1/2/3 and the current X derivatives uses a hammer and key sensor.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692714
11/28/17 05:43 PM
11/28/17 05:43 PM
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This issue is just with the upright action sensors. I've never encountered anything untoward playing my N3.

I played the NU1 in Amsterdam a few years ago and had that issue happen to me. At the time I assumed the problem was with me, now I know otherwise.

Having written that, it wouldn't stop me from buying one. I look at these pianos as excellent practice pianos. I've given thought over the years of buying the NU1 simply because it's more difficult to play than the N series.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692792
11/29/17 01:55 AM
11/29/17 01:55 AM
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A question:

If the cause of the "loud note" problem is "blocking" of the action, during fast repeats and trills:

. . . It should be possible to demonstrate the effect, by deliberately using "poor technique" to elicit it.

Has anyone tried to do that on an NU1 or NU1X, and succeeded?

Thanks --


. Charles
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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692873
11/29/17 11:41 AM
11/29/17 11:41 AM
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Wow. I works bit have imagined that a real acoustic hammer action would utilize only key sensors and no hammer sensors. Incredible. Even mid-range DPs puts sensors on hangers rather than keys.

Of course, the NU1 performs rather admirably given this limitation, but still, it seems rather unnecessary in the end, especially since the problem had been exposed to great degree in the last generation and there has been ample time to address it.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
A question:

If the cause of the "loud note" problem is "blocking" of the action, during fast repeats and trills:

. . . It should be possible to demonstrate the effect, by deliberately using "poor technique" to elicit it.

Has anyone tried to do that on an NU1 or NU1X, and succeeded?

Thanks --


My guess is that it's not that easy. I can't say that I've ever run into this ish on the NU1. There have definitely been instances where I have had spurious loud notesz but these have typically been accompanied by of action mechanics, which I have also experienced in acoustic uprights, so they seem to be realistic behavior to me.

I think it's a very specific timing situation that depends on the inertia of the keys and hammer, so it's hard to reproduce or capture in a model.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692879
11/29/17 12:13 PM
11/29/17 12:13 PM
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Are the off notes sent at a higher-than-expected velocity or maximum velocity? (hooking a NU1 to a VST would allow to confirm this easily). If the latter then this (non-)issue has probably multiple factors, as I don't see how the sensor positioned at key level would send systematically the highest possible velocity.

FWIW, my grand AP had a silent system retrofitted with sensors on the keybed (QuietTime). When doing fast trills / repetition it results in notes dropping rather than loud notes (basically the piano has to be played like an upright when in silent mode).

Cheers,
C

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Chewbacca] #2692897
11/29/17 01:40 PM
11/29/17 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chewbacca
Are the off notes sent at a higher-than-expected velocity or maximum velocity? (hooking a NU1 to a VST would allow to confirm this easily). If the latter then this (non-)issue has probably multiple factors, as I don't see how the sensor positioned at key level would send systematically the highest possible velocity.

FWIW, my grand AP had a silent system retrofitted with sensors on the keybed (QuietTime). When doing fast trills / repetition it results in notes dropping rather than loud notes (basically the piano has to be played like an upright when in silent mode).

Cheers,
C


Chewbacca,

I think it's probably more so a higher-than-expected velocity. However after it happens, I'll commonly strike that note afterwards hard, to try and match how loud it played, and I have to strike really hard to match it. I can't be sure however that it's max volume.

The way your grand AP silent system mutes the note instead, sounds like a better solution in my opinion.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692905
11/29/17 02:25 PM
11/29/17 02:25 PM
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I am getting what I call this "CLANG" issue on my new NU1X (I've had it for two weeks): note sounds 2 or 3x as loud as expected. I get a CLANG, sometimes not at all in half an hour of playing, sometimes after just a few minutes. Different notes each time.

Yamaha tech came yesterday to address the Issue. He took out each key and cleaned (with alcohol and Q-tip and microfiber cloth) a small sensor tab ("shutter") on the underside of each. It is about the size of my thumbnail and its translucency is graduated from clear to dark. As I understand it, the moving shutter trips two light beams below the keys, and the difference between the two resulting signals indicates key-strike velocity. If one signal fails, the other makes it default to maximum volume. He said that the NU1 (unlike N1, N2, N3 AvantGrands) does not have hammer sensors (and, as far I have have heard, they do not have this problem).

Ten minutes after he left yesterday, I got another CLANG. I am disappointed; I got this piano hoping to be able to practice (silently, without bothering the neighbors) the expressiveness and nuance that my teacher attempts to impart. So much for "real acoustic action"! This piano is not staying, and I am back to piano-shopping. What should I get?

Last edited by Qwerty53; 11/29/17 02:45 PM. Reason: Added X = NU1X

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Qwerty53] #2692907
11/29/17 02:33 PM
11/29/17 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Qwerty53
I am getting what I call this "CLANG" issue on my new NU1 (I've had it for two weeks): note sounds 2 or 3x as loud as expected. I get a CLANG, sometimes not at all in half an hour of playing, sometimes after just a few minutes. Different notes each time.

Yamaha tech came yesterday to address the Issue. He took out each key and cleaned (with alcohol and Q-tip and microfiber cloth) a small sensor tab ("shutter") on the underside of each. It is about the size of my thumbnail and its translucency is graduated from clear to dark. As I understand it, the moving shutter trips two light beams below the keys, and the difference between the two resulting signals indicates key-strike velocity. If one signal fails, the other makes it default to maximum volume. He said that the NU1 (unlike N1, N2, N3 AvantGrands) does not have hammer sensors (and, as far I have have heard, they do not have this problem).

Ten minutes after he left yesterday, I got another CLANG. I am disappointed; I got this piano hoping to be able to practice (silently, without bothering the neighbors) the expressiveness and nuance that my teacher attempts to impart. So much for "real acoustic action"! This piano is not staying, and I am back to piano-shopping. What should I get?


Wow I'm really sorry to hear that Qwerty.

I'm also very disappointed , because at this price point, I was very impressed with the Nu1x. It sounds and feels great, it's unfortunate we're having these issues.

My hopes is that I can return this unit, and save a bit of money and upgrade to the N2(x). From what i've read, and as you mentioned, they don't have these problems. I also think the grand action > upright action of the Nu1's.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692911
11/29/17 02:51 PM
11/29/17 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Egorbopol

I'm also very disappointed , because at this price point, I was very impressed with the Nu1x. It sounds and feels great, it's unfortunate we're having these issues.


Very unfortunate indeed. NU1X is simply not an acceptable Piano due to this defect.

Waiting for N2X and Novus NV10 !!

Osho


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692912
11/29/17 02:51 PM
11/29/17 02:51 PM
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My neighbor has what I think is an N2 (four years old and it probably cost twice what I paid for my NU1X). She loves it, after a lifetime of playing her two Steinways, which I consider a fairly demanding standard of comparison!


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692920
11/29/17 03:08 PM
11/29/17 03:08 PM
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Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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Qwerty53  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Salish Sea
To add a bit of data for our resident diagnosticians: this unexpected loudness can occur whether or not I am trying to trill or repeat the note.


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692947
11/29/17 04:33 PM
11/29/17 04:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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Qwerty53  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Salish Sea
Okay, so, I have the choice of swapping for a different unit, trade-up, or take a refund and start shopping again. Advice, anyone?


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Qwerty53] #2692949
11/29/17 04:41 PM
11/29/17 04:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 33
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Egorbopol  Offline OP
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Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Qwerty53
Okay, so, I have the choice of swapping for a different unit, trade-up, or take a refund and start shopping again. Advice, anyone?


That's nice to hear. I hope they call me back and give me that very same option. if so, I'll be taking a full refund and saving to get an N2.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692968
11/29/17 05:49 PM
11/29/17 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Salish Sea
Qwerty53 Offline
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Qwerty53  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 111
Salish Sea
Good luck! If you go for a different piano, what are you considering?


”Mister Upright,” Yamaha YUS5.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692969
11/29/17 05:50 PM
11/29/17 05:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,166
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,166
Northern England.
I think we all wish you well on that one! Dammit, I really fancied that piano myself . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Qwerty53] #2692975
11/29/17 06:16 PM
11/29/17 06:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 33
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Egorbopol  Offline OP
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Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Qwerty53
Good luck! If you go for a different piano, what are you considering?


The Novus NV10 sounds great, I'm interested to see more information and reactions from people who have played it. I'm not sure if I'll be able to afford that just yet either though wink Other than that, nothing else has really stood out to me besides the N series Yamaha's.

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