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Yamaha NU1X defect #2692345
11/27/17 01:07 PM
11/27/17 01:07 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Hello everyone,

I bought a Yamaha nu1x over the weekend and had it delivered on Saturday. I have been playing it for the past two days and while it is functioning properly, I absolutely love it. Aesthetically, it is beautiful, the touch is fantastic, and the tone is really great (especially with headphones on).

However.... I've noticed something that I assumed was a factory defect, which after research I've realized happens to every one of these units, and is a known issue that Yamaha knows about and says is "your piano working normally".

While playing softly, or trilling, a note will be played at full volume, instead of as intended. When I am playing a piece softly, and one of these notes I play jumps out at full volume, it instantly ruins the experience for me, and I have to stop playing. It happened to me at least 4 times last night while playing.

Here is a video someone else posted of the exact problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASzEpsIJeb4

I'm hoping my piano store allows for returns, because this type of defect is something I cannot live with. I'm not sure how anyone with this keyboard can handle it to be honest.

It's a bummer, because when this issue isn't happening, I really do love this piano.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692353
11/27/17 01:39 PM
11/27/17 01:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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From what you (and the video) have said this seems to be an inherent defect.
So, yes ... demand a return. I wouldn't tolerate this flaw.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692359
11/27/17 02:20 PM
11/27/17 02:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
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Gothenburg, Sweden
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Hi Egorbopol.

I have tried 4 different NU1 and one NU1X and everyone of them had that problem. I was speaking to the main Yamaha dealer in Sweden about the problem and he said that the NU1(X) has to be calibrated once every now and then. There is suposed to be a calibration function built in to the instrument. Hopefully this will be enough because I agree with you that it is a lovely instrument to play when it works properly.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: johanibraaten] #2692361
11/27/17 02:27 PM
11/27/17 02:27 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by johanibraaten
Hi Egorbopol.

I have tried 4 different NU1 and one NU1X and everyone of them had that problem. I was speaking to the main Yamaha dealer in Sweden about the problem and he said that the NU1(X) has to be calibrated once every now and then. There is suposed to be a calibration function built in to the instrument. Hopefully this will be enough because I agree with you that it is a lovely instrument to play when it works properly.


Hi Johanibraaten,

That's interesting to hear, thanks for the reply. I did not know about the calibration, however I would have assumed that it would have been calibrated properly day one? The issue started 30 minutes into playing straight out of the box. Maybe I will contact a technician about calibration. This issue has bummed me out enough where I'm probably going to drive to the piano store I bought it from today to ask about a full refund and return. I've read this doesn't happen on the N1, N2, N3.... maybe I just have to upgrade wink

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692364
11/27/17 02:44 PM
11/27/17 02:44 PM
Joined: May 2017
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karvala Offline
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I've seen this reported elsewhere as well; it's a definitely real problem with NU1X. Gotta love the Yamaha response, basically claiming that an obvious defect is "normal" and there isn't a problem with the instrument when there clearly is. Vote with your money, return the instrument for a full refund and make them give you a substantial discount if they want you to ever buy another after they've finally bothered to fix it, which I imagine they will have to in due course. It looks more like a scripting error than a hardware fault, although it's hard to be sure, so a future firmware update could possibly fix it. I wouldn't take the risk, though, and be left with something which is clearly defective.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: karvala] #2692374
11/27/17 03:44 PM
11/27/17 03:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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So I just got back from my piano store that I bought from this past weekend.

They will not give me a full refund... frown

I was pretty upset about this obviously.

They did however offer me an N1 upgrade for $7500. I pay the difference in what I already paid for the Nu1x.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692384
11/27/17 04:11 PM
11/27/17 04:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
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Germany
MRC Offline
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I had an NU1 for three years. It was OK for practising with headphones and I learnt to live with the sudden loud note problem, but I wasn't sorry to see it go.

As far as I can tell, the problem comes from the fact the the sensors measure the speed of the key being pressed, not of the metal "hammers". If a hammer has not completely returned to its rest position in an upright action, the key offers less resistance, so that it moves faster for the same force of touch. In an acoustic upright, this will result in the hammer striking the string with less force, or even not striking the string at all. In the NU1 and NU1X, the increased speed of the key is registered as a fortissimo.

Calibrating (which I did several times) will not cure the problem. I got used to playing in a certain manner that limited the number of sudden loud notes, becoming very conscious of the way I released the key (which was an interesting experience) but I couldn't completely eliminate the sudden shocks.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692392
11/27/17 04:40 PM
11/27/17 04:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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I was in total love with a NU1 in a store some time ago and noticed this problem happening to me in the store just playing it for 15 minutes but didn't pay attention then. It was noisy at the time and I thought it was my technique. And I almost hit the "purchase" button on a Thomann order with it but a last minute wisdom told me to dig a little about the piano and it turned out many people actually complain about this problem, it's not curable and is considered "normal" by Yamaha. Such a pity frown

Last edited by CyberGene; 11/27/17 04:41 PM.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692396
11/27/17 04:46 PM
11/27/17 04:46 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I was in total love with a NU1 in a store some time ago and noticed this problem happening to me in the store just playing it for 15 minutes but didn't pay attention then. It was noisy at the time and I thought it was my technique. And I almost hit the "purchase" button on a Thomann order with it but a last minute wisdom told me to dig a little about the piano and it turned out many people actually complain about this problem, it's not curable and is considered "normal" by Yamaha. Such a pity frown


I wish I did a bit more digging like you did CyberGene.

Now I'm in a bind and not sure how to proceed.

1. Deal with it....
2. Sell it used private party
3. Use the trade in value to "upgrade" to an n1? Is an n1 even an upgrade at this point?

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692398
11/27/17 04:50 PM
11/27/17 04:50 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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Where do you live? I believe in EU there's some customer protection and you can threaten the store to sue them. Although retail stores are not obliged to offer returns (it's assumed you tested the instrument), there's a hidden and known bug and you, like many others, have been misled about it.

P.S. If anything, the store themselves can forward this problem to Yamaha to accept their cr*p back or start informing people more openly about that!

Last edited by CyberGene; 11/27/17 04:55 PM.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692400
11/27/17 04:53 PM
11/27/17 04:53 PM
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Egorbopol Offline OP
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Where do you live? I believe in EU there's some customer protection and you can threaten the store to sue them. Although retail stores are not obliged to offer returns (it's assumed you tested the instrument), there's a hidden and known bug and you, like many others, have been misled about it.


I live in The US, in California. I wasn't aware of this bug, and played the piano for a good 10-15 minutes happily in the store. I actually think I remember the note sounding loud once while playing, but its noisey in the store, and I assumed I pressed harder than I meant to. I blamed it on human error. It wasn't until it happened many times at home, that I started digging on the internet to find I wasn't the only one.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692402
11/27/17 05:00 PM
11/27/17 05:00 PM
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If you make enough of a fuss, and in particular, make that fuss public enough (twitter, facebook, threaten them with a news story, negative reviews by all your friends, a frivolous lawsuit etc.), it won't be long before Yamaha decide you're more hassle than it's worth and give you a full refund.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692423
11/27/17 05:44 PM
11/27/17 05:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,386
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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I experienced that issue on an NU1.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692428
11/27/17 05:59 PM
11/27/17 05:59 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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I've played an NU1 frequently, and have experienced something similar, but not quite identical to this very common issue. Once in a while (once every 30-60min), I'll hit a key softly, and it will depress very quickly/lightly with very little feel from the action, and because of that the volume/tone from that key will be quite high. Is that the same thing you're seeing? It always happens when I'm repeating a note as opposed to playing it new.

The main difference is that I feel a difference in the touchweight of the action when that happens. But that seems different from the canonical report of occasional loud keys from the NU1.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692430
11/27/17 06:06 PM
11/27/17 06:06 PM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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What is beyond me is how Yamaha knew about this “normal” issue for quite a while with NU1 and then upgraded to NU1X but didn’t even bother to fix it...


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692437
11/27/17 06:20 PM
11/27/17 06:20 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
What is beyond me is how Yamaha knew about this “normal” issue for quite a while with NU1 and then upgraded to NU1X but didn’t even bother to fix it...


The assumption being that it's easy to determine the cause and implement the fix....I dunno smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692444
11/27/17 06:48 PM
11/27/17 06:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,168
Northern England.
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The piano is obviously not fit for purpose. It is legally required in the UK at least, to be such; a solicitor's letter should do the job.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692454
11/27/17 07:38 PM
11/27/17 07:38 PM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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From the NU1X User Manual -- "Troubleshooting":

Quote
Problem: When playing the same key repeatedly and quickly or playing a trill continuously for a long time, a sound louder than expected (considering your playing strength) might very occasionally occur.

Cause: This might be caused by the mechanical structure of the keys and the action; this is
normal, but only very seldom occurs.


So:
. . . (a) the problem has been carried over from the NU1 (I checked that manual, too, a while ago);

. . . (b) it is considered "normal" !

Shame on the Yamaha engineers!


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Charles Cohen] #2692457
11/27/17 07:57 PM
11/27/17 07:57 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
From the NU1X User Manual -- "Troubleshooting":

Quote
Problem: When playing the same key repeatedly and quickly or playing a trill continuously for a long time, a sound louder than expected (considering your playing strength) might very occasionally occur.

Cause: This might be caused by the mechanical structure of the keys and the action; this is
normal, but only very seldom occurs.


So:
. . . (a) the problem has been carried over from the NU1 (I checked that manual, too, a while ago);

. . . (b) it is considered "normal" !

Shame on the Yamaha engineers!




Shame on the Yamaha engineers, indeed. We need more competition for Avantgrand series.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 11/27/17 07:58 PM.

Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Gombessa] #2692521
11/28/17 02:43 AM
11/28/17 02:43 AM
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Germany
MRC Offline
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've played an NU1 frequently, and have experienced something similar, but not quite identical to this very common issue. Once in a while (once every 30-60min), I'll hit a key softly, and it will depress very quickly/lightly with very little feel from the action, and because of that the volume/tone from that key will be quite high. Is that the same thing you're seeing? It always happens when I'm repeating a note as opposed to playing it new.

That's exactly the problem. When repeating a note, sometimes the hammer hasn't returned to its rest position so the key offers less resistance than usual. The key therefore moves faster for a given force of touch. The sensor measures the speed of the key, not of the hammer, resulting in a sound much louder than it should be.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692545
11/28/17 07:00 AM
11/28/17 07:00 AM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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I think this is an inevitable consequence of the use of a real upright action. Upright actions have a limited repetition speed and they will 'block' under certain circumstances. This makes the key feel light and will therefore trigger a loud note. All upright actions block. Mechanically, grand actions (and DP actions) cannot block; it's physically impossible for that to happen.

Although I've tried the NU1 and liked the feel (and didn't notice any problems with it) it always mystified me as to what one would gain from the use of an upright action in a DP. Upright actions are all compromised due to the much lower assistance they receive from gravity. It's not that they can't feel subjectively nice and responsive however but this NU1 problem is entirely due to the use of the real upright action.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: EssBrace] #2692547
11/28/17 07:21 AM
11/28/17 07:21 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
I think this is an inevitable consequence of the use of a real upright action. Upright actions have a limited repetition speed and they will 'block' under certain circumstances. This makes the key feel light and will therefore trigger a loud note.


I don't think this happens on a real upright piano, because when the key feels light it means the hammer is thrown/disengaged and you can't re-throw it so you'd rather produce a quiet note or even silence. But even that makes more sense because you feel key lighter and the produced note is light and that's intuitive. Also reading what some other user above posted, it appears the key sensors are being read rather than hammer sensors (are there any at all?) which is why there is sudden loud velocity and that's pretty weird and unrealistic, especially for something that pretends to have a real action and behavior. If the key sensor is really the culprit, Yamaha are to blame for not doing anything after so many years and a newer generation of the instrument.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692550
11/28/17 07:40 AM
11/28/17 07:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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The explanation given above (the hammer is disengaged, the key is therefore "easier" to press, which results in a higher key velocity, which results in a louder tone) sounds logical.

That's probably also the reason why Yamaha's position on this is "that's just how it is, we won't fix it" (that's not to excuse them, just to offer a possible explanation of why they take this position):

This only happens if you play the upright action in an incorrect fashion, i.e. if you press a key before the key has reengaged the hammer. During proper play, this should always be avoided. If you cannot avoid it, then your technique is simply not good enough. It's a mistake made by the player. On an acoustic upright, this mistake would result in a dropped (or very silent) note. On the NU1 and NU1X it results in a very lout note instead. Neither would be acceptable if you try to play a piece without mistakes, so both need to be avoided by improving playing technique. Once your technique is good enough to avoid this, you won't have this problem anymore (neither on an acoustic or the NU1).

Granted, an occasional silent note is much less jarring than an occasional very loud note, so again: This is not to make excuses for Yamaha, but just a speculation about why they feel they can get away without fixing this.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692552
11/28/17 07:50 AM
11/28/17 07:50 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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JoBert, what you say makes a lot of sense and is along the lines of what EssBrace asked about the point of having an upright action in a DP. I don't see the point in having an action that needs people working around it (to avoid action deficiencies), rather than concentrating on playing whatever they like and expecting the piano to follow which is what grand piano actions do, and also standard digital piano actions.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: MRC] #2692556
11/28/17 08:15 AM
11/28/17 08:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 498
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by MRC
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've played an NU1 frequently, and have experienced something similar, but not quite identical to this very common issue. Once in a while (once every 30-60min), I'll hit a key softly, and it will depress very quickly/lightly with very little feel from the action, and because of that the volume/tone from that key will be quite high. Is that the same thing you're seeing? It always happens when I'm repeating a note as opposed to playing it new.

That's exactly the problem. When repeating a note, sometimes the hammer hasn't returned to its rest position so the key offers less resistance than usual. The key therefore moves faster for a given force of touch. The sensor measures the speed of the key, not of the hammer, resulting in a sound much louder than it should be.


But aren't the optical AvantGrand sensors actually measuring the speed of the hammer?

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: arc7urus] #2692560
11/28/17 08:48 AM
11/28/17 08:48 AM
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Posts: 49
Gothenburg, Sweden
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Originally Posted by arc_turus
But aren't the optical AvantGrand sensors actually measuring the speed of the hammer?

I think this is the main thing that's make the N1 not having this problem. On the N1 there is sensors for both the keys and the hammers but on NU1(X) there is sensors only for the keys.

Last edited by johanibraaten; 11/28/17 08:53 AM.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: JoBert] #2692567
11/28/17 09:45 AM
11/28/17 09:45 AM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by JoBert
The explanation given above (the hammer is disengaged, the key is therefore "easier" to press, which results in a higher key velocity, which results in a louder tone) sounds logical.

That's probably also the reason why Yamaha's position on this is "that's just how it is, we won't fix it" (that's not to excuse them, just to offer a possible explanation of why they take this position):

This only happens if you play the upright action in an incorrect fashion, i.e. if you press a key before the key has reengaged the hammer. During proper play, this should always be avoided. If you cannot avoid it, then your technique is simply not good enough. It's a mistake made by the player. On an acoustic upright, this mistake would result in a dropped (or very silent) note. On the NU1 and NU1X it results in a very lout note instead. Neither would be acceptable if you try to play a piece without mistakes, so both need to be avoided by improving playing technique. Once your technique is good enough to avoid this, you won't have this problem anymore (neither on an acoustic or the NU1).

Granted, an occasional silent note is much less jarring than an occasional very loud note, so again: This is not to make excuses for Yamaha, but just a speculation about why they feel they can get away without fixing this.


Yes, quite. You'll notice people report the problem when playing 'trills' and fast repetitions. In normal legato or indeed any other play I would be surprised if there was any issue. Yamaha says as much (about playing trills etc) in their warning.

You can play fast repetitions on an upright but the key must return fully so the action can return properly so it is far more difficult than on a grand (or indeed most DPs).

Here's the choices:

- Enjoy the (arguably) enhanced tactile sense of the real action in the NU1 and put up with the issue (or refine your technique to a very high standard).

- Pay more for a real grand action in an AvantGrand or Kawai Novus.

- Choose a conventional DP type action.

I think the degree of redesign Yamaha would have to employ to 'cure' the issue would be significant. The blocking would still take place in a mechanical sense with the action but if the hammers were sensed (rather than, or in addition to, the keys) you'd get, just as JoBert says, a dropped or very quiet note instead of the very loud one. I wonder if Yamaha 'Silent' uprights have this issue?.....


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692569
11/28/17 09:53 AM
11/28/17 09:53 AM
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CyberGene Offline
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In any case a comparison with a real upright is still needed because this is supposed to be a brand new, 21st century Japanese standards upright action and I really don't remember playing brand new Yamaha and Kawai uprights in stores and having any issues whatsoever, even intentionally trying to "jam" the action with fast repetitions, trills, etc. A modern upright should not be so easy to jam. Whereas I was able to encounter NU1 bug in a matter of 15 minutes without even trying intentionally since at the time I didn't even know about that. So, I beg to question the validity of "all upright actions are that cr*p" argument. Sure, grand actions are superior but not by that far.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692571
11/28/17 09:59 AM
11/28/17 09:59 AM
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EssBrace Offline
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This appears in the Silent piano manuals from Yamaha:

"When I play a rapid series of notes in Silent PianoTM mode, a loud sound is emitted that is not part of the performance.
- This is not a fault. The structure of the Silent PianoTM causes this to occur in some cases."


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692572
11/28/17 10:04 AM
11/28/17 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, I beg to question the validity of "all upright actions are that cr*p" argument. Sure, grand actions are superior but not by that far.


Who is saying that?

All I'm saying is that they have a natural and inevitable limitation as far as repetition goes. It is far easier to notice a sudden loud note (NU1, Silent series) than a quieter or absent one (acoustic upright). I had an upright for a while (a decent new one). I could easily get it to block.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7
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