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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692545
11/28/17 07:00 AM
11/28/17 07:00 AM
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I think this is an inevitable consequence of the use of a real upright action. Upright actions have a limited repetition speed and they will 'block' under certain circumstances. This makes the key feel light and will therefore trigger a loud note. All upright actions block. Mechanically, grand actions (and DP actions) cannot block; it's physically impossible for that to happen.

Although I've tried the NU1 and liked the feel (and didn't notice any problems with it) it always mystified me as to what one would gain from the use of an upright action in a DP. Upright actions are all compromised due to the much lower assistance they receive from gravity. It's not that they can't feel subjectively nice and responsive however but this NU1 problem is entirely due to the use of the real upright action.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: EssBrace] #2692547
11/28/17 07:21 AM
11/28/17 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
I think this is an inevitable consequence of the use of a real upright action. Upright actions have a limited repetition speed and they will 'block' under certain circumstances. This makes the key feel light and will therefore trigger a loud note.


I don't think this happens on a real upright piano, because when the key feels light it means the hammer is thrown/disengaged and you can't re-throw it so you'd rather produce a quiet note or even silence. But even that makes more sense because you feel key lighter and the produced note is light and that's intuitive. Also reading what some other user above posted, it appears the key sensors are being read rather than hammer sensors (are there any at all?) which is why there is sudden loud velocity and that's pretty weird and unrealistic, especially for something that pretends to have a real action and behavior. If the key sensor is really the culprit, Yamaha are to blame for not doing anything after so many years and a newer generation of the instrument.


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Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692550
11/28/17 07:40 AM
11/28/17 07:40 AM
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The explanation given above (the hammer is disengaged, the key is therefore "easier" to press, which results in a higher key velocity, which results in a louder tone) sounds logical.

That's probably also the reason why Yamaha's position on this is "that's just how it is, we won't fix it" (that's not to excuse them, just to offer a possible explanation of why they take this position):

This only happens if you play the upright action in an incorrect fashion, i.e. if you press a key before the key has reengaged the hammer. During proper play, this should always be avoided. If you cannot avoid it, then your technique is simply not good enough. It's a mistake made by the player. On an acoustic upright, this mistake would result in a dropped (or very silent) note. On the NU1 and NU1X it results in a very lout note instead. Neither would be acceptable if you try to play a piece without mistakes, so both need to be avoided by improving playing technique. Once your technique is good enough to avoid this, you won't have this problem anymore (neither on an acoustic or the NU1).

Granted, an occasional silent note is much less jarring than an occasional very loud note, so again: This is not to make excuses for Yamaha, but just a speculation about why they feel they can get away without fixing this.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692552
11/28/17 07:50 AM
11/28/17 07:50 AM
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JoBert, what you say makes a lot of sense and is along the lines of what EssBrace asked about the point of having an upright action in a DP. I don't see the point in having an action that needs people working around it (to avoid action deficiencies), rather than concentrating on playing whatever they like and expecting the piano to follow which is what grand piano actions do, and also standard digital piano actions.


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Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: MRC] #2692556
11/28/17 08:15 AM
11/28/17 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I've played an NU1 frequently, and have experienced something similar, but not quite identical to this very common issue. Once in a while (once every 30-60min), I'll hit a key softly, and it will depress very quickly/lightly with very little feel from the action, and because of that the volume/tone from that key will be quite high. Is that the same thing you're seeing? It always happens when I'm repeating a note as opposed to playing it new.

That's exactly the problem. When repeating a note, sometimes the hammer hasn't returned to its rest position so the key offers less resistance than usual. The key therefore moves faster for a given force of touch. The sensor measures the speed of the key, not of the hammer, resulting in a sound much louder than it should be.


But aren't the optical AvantGrand sensors actually measuring the speed of the hammer?

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: arc7urus] #2692560
11/28/17 08:48 AM
11/28/17 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by arc_turus
But aren't the optical AvantGrand sensors actually measuring the speed of the hammer?

I think this is the main thing that's make the N1 not having this problem. On the N1 there is sensors for both the keys and the hammers but on NU1(X) there is sensors only for the keys.

Last edited by johanibraaten; 11/28/17 08:53 AM.
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: JoBert] #2692567
11/28/17 09:45 AM
11/28/17 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
The explanation given above (the hammer is disengaged, the key is therefore "easier" to press, which results in a higher key velocity, which results in a louder tone) sounds logical.

That's probably also the reason why Yamaha's position on this is "that's just how it is, we won't fix it" (that's not to excuse them, just to offer a possible explanation of why they take this position):

This only happens if you play the upright action in an incorrect fashion, i.e. if you press a key before the key has reengaged the hammer. During proper play, this should always be avoided. If you cannot avoid it, then your technique is simply not good enough. It's a mistake made by the player. On an acoustic upright, this mistake would result in a dropped (or very silent) note. On the NU1 and NU1X it results in a very lout note instead. Neither would be acceptable if you try to play a piece without mistakes, so both need to be avoided by improving playing technique. Once your technique is good enough to avoid this, you won't have this problem anymore (neither on an acoustic or the NU1).

Granted, an occasional silent note is much less jarring than an occasional very loud note, so again: This is not to make excuses for Yamaha, but just a speculation about why they feel they can get away without fixing this.


Yes, quite. You'll notice people report the problem when playing 'trills' and fast repetitions. In normal legato or indeed any other play I would be surprised if there was any issue. Yamaha says as much (about playing trills etc) in their warning.

You can play fast repetitions on an upright but the key must return fully so the action can return properly so it is far more difficult than on a grand (or indeed most DPs).

Here's the choices:

- Enjoy the (arguably) enhanced tactile sense of the real action in the NU1 and put up with the issue (or refine your technique to a very high standard).

- Pay more for a real grand action in an AvantGrand or Kawai Novus.

- Choose a conventional DP type action.

I think the degree of redesign Yamaha would have to employ to 'cure' the issue would be significant. The blocking would still take place in a mechanical sense with the action but if the hammers were sensed (rather than, or in addition to, the keys) you'd get, just as JoBert says, a dropped or very quiet note instead of the very loud one. I wonder if Yamaha 'Silent' uprights have this issue?.....


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692569
11/28/17 09:53 AM
11/28/17 09:53 AM
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In any case a comparison with a real upright is still needed because this is supposed to be a brand new, 21st century Japanese standards upright action and I really don't remember playing brand new Yamaha and Kawai uprights in stores and having any issues whatsoever, even intentionally trying to "jam" the action with fast repetitions, trills, etc. A modern upright should not be so easy to jam. Whereas I was able to encounter NU1 bug in a matter of 15 minutes without even trying intentionally since at the time I didn't even know about that. So, I beg to question the validity of "all upright actions are that cr*p" argument. Sure, grand actions are superior but not by that far.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692571
11/28/17 09:59 AM
11/28/17 09:59 AM
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This appears in the Silent piano manuals from Yamaha:

"When I play a rapid series of notes in Silent PianoTM mode, a loud sound is emitted that is not part of the performance.
- This is not a fault. The structure of the Silent PianoTM causes this to occur in some cases."


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692572
11/28/17 10:04 AM
11/28/17 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, I beg to question the validity of "all upright actions are that cr*p" argument. Sure, grand actions are superior but not by that far.


Who is saying that?

All I'm saying is that they have a natural and inevitable limitation as far as repetition goes. It is far easier to notice a sudden loud note (NU1, Silent series) than a quieter or absent one (acoustic upright). I had an upright for a while (a decent new one). I could easily get it to block.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: EssBrace] #2692573
11/28/17 10:05 AM
11/28/17 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
This appears in the Silent piano manuals from Yamaha:

"When I play a rapid series of notes in Silent PianoTM mode, a loud sound is emitted that is not part of the performance.
- This is not a fault. The structure of the Silent PianoTM causes this to occur in some cases."


OK, so this is a real upright piano, but the problem is found only in Silent PianoTM mode, not in the acoustic mode. There's nothing like "the structure of real piano TM causes problems". So, again, Yamaha haven't implemented their Silent and AG detection for upright actions in the best possible way. OK, they admit it but it's still below (already lower) upright action standards.

Last edited by CyberGene; 11/28/17 10:06 AM.

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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692577
11/28/17 10:12 AM
11/28/17 10:12 AM
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Right, well we have established that the reason is the issues involved in sensing hammer throw on an upright action. Yamaha is not implementing that maybe because it is practically impossible or just very expensive to do so. So the keys are sensed and those sensors cannot 'know' that the action has blocked and the weight of the action is not on that particular key so it plays very light and so emits a much louder tone.

That's the reason. Yamaha have their position on it. Potential buyers will make whatever decisions they want to. End of story.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692600
11/28/17 12:02 PM
11/28/17 12:02 PM
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The blocking on the upright typically occurs when the hammer isn't caught properly by the backcheck. This normally happens on louder notes and when the key is held down as it'll have sufficient momentum rebounding from the string to resist the friction between the catcher and the backcheck felt. Because the key is held down it also means the jack is lifted back off the hammer butt so also won't prevent the hammer rebounding. As a result the jack ends wedged right at the top of the butt (snigger) and the only way to reset is to release the key a fairly substantial way.

This, I think, is what leads to the 'you always need to release the key fully to repeat notes on an upright' myth.

This tends to be more noticeable in worn actions and so much of this can be avoided by tightening up the regulation, specifically reducing the let off distance and adjusting the back check. If you push this too far then there's a risk of 'note bobbling' during soft playing as the hammer will bounce back off the back check/jack for a second strike so there's a balance to be met but I think many uprights a quite a bit shy of that limit.

Re the Nu1(x) problem, is it simply related to the key sensor? I can't imagine the key would descend all that much faster when the hammer is wedged back like that, you may not be pressing the weight of the hammer, but there's still the weight of the rest of the action, including the damper. I was under the impression the occasional loud note was a maximum volume one, not just a bit louder.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Bambers] #2692603
11/28/17 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bambers

Re the Nu1(x) problem, is it simply related to the key sensor? I can't imagine the key would descend all that much faster when the hammer is wedged back like that, you may not be pressing the weight of the hammer, but there's still the weight of the rest of the action, including the damper. I was under the impression the occasional loud note was a maximum volume one, not just a bit louder.


Assuming the NU1 action is wired up similarly to the N1/2/3, there are continuous optical sensors on both the keys as well as the hammer in order to sense velocity. So I would expect that they would (should?) be able to detect the hammer velocity regardless of the state of the rest of the action.

I've always wondered what the AvantGrand's optical key sensors do....most DPs sense either key or hammer velocity, and I'm not sure how Yamaha uses/combines the data from both in the AG's case.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692605
11/28/17 12:19 PM
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You need key sensors to establish damper position/note off. Hammer sensors would be more accurate for the note on part than inferring it from key travel.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692608
11/28/17 12:23 PM
11/28/17 12:23 PM
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Key sensors on some digital pianos work because the so called "hammers" are linked to keys and can't be thrown freely, they move together with the key, and the key will bottom out together with the hammer due to the inertia of the hammer, even if you lift your fingers early. However using key sensors only on a real action seems silly.


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: CyberGene] #2692615
11/28/17 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
You need key sensors to establish damper position/note off. Hammer sensors would be more accurate for the note on part than inferring it from key travel.


Ah of course. Thanks Bambers, that makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Key sensors on some digital pianos work because the so called "hammers" are linked to keys and can't be thrown freely, they move together with the key, and the key will bottom out together with the hammer due to the inertia of the hammer, even if you lift your fingers early. However using key sensors only on a real action seems silly.


I do want to note that even in boards where the hammer is not linked to the keys, a fully depressed key usually results in a fully-actuated hammer (there is no rebound) if the key is fully depressed.

So if note-on is determined by the hammer sensor, what is going on with the N1X? A continuous sensor should be able to detect proper hammer velocity at any given time, eliminating "false" strikes. This makes it sound like the root cause is in software.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692620
11/28/17 12:50 PM
11/28/17 12:50 PM
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I have nothing to contribute to the OP and others who have encountered this problem. But I am a very happy NU1 owner going on 5 years. It’s just a great practice piano. I also play regularly on my teachers grand, its action is worse than that of my NU1 but that’s a question of age and regulation. I have, touch wood, never had this sudden loud note problem, at least with the piano voice; with the harpsichord voice which has a fixed sound level the key action can produce extraneous or unwanted notes, but I put that down to my own clumsy playing. I recently had my NU1 serviced under warranty, sensors cleaned and recalibrated, still no spurious loud notes. Maybe it’s my lack of technique and choice of piano music. My only GAS since owning it, despite some temptations from Roland and Kawai, has been for an N2. As I say, this is of no help to those who have encountered the problem, but there are some happy owners.

Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Gombessa] #2692638
11/28/17 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Assuming the NU1 action is wired up similarly to the N1/2/3, there are continuous optical sensors on both the keys as well as the hammer in order to sense velocity. So I would expect that they would (should?) be able to detect the hammer velocity regardless of the state of the rest of the action.


I don't think this is right. Yamaha's material mentions optical hammer sensors on their silent grands and AvantGrands, but, rather pointedly in my opinion, does not mention hammer sensors on upright actions. To my mind the lack of hammer sensor provides a workable explanation for this problem. If we presume there is a hammer sensor then the problem is unfathomable. To suggest it is software related must be nonsense because they'd just fix it wouldn't they?


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Re: Yamaha NU1X defect [Re: Egorbopol] #2692647
11/28/17 02:25 PM
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Interesting. IIRC the optical sensor module on the GranTouch/AvantGrands are quite visible with the outer covers removed. I think it would be pretty easy to confirm the existence (or lack thereof) of hammer sensors on the NU1...


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