Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
106 registered members (akc42, 20/20 Vision, bennevis, AssociateX, anotherscott, aDcOoL, Alfonser, anamnesis, Agent88, 26 invisible), 1,341 guests, and 11 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2750986
07/12/18 01:58 PM
07/12/18 01:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 22
Netherlands
R
RalphK Offline
Full Member
RalphK  Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 22
Netherlands
Dough M, David, in an experiment to further improve the sound of my Kawai Novus 10 (more body, more roominess), I added a cabinet with amplifier and two speakers (eacht with woofer + dome tweeter) facing up to a piano lid, and two additional column speakers angled 45 degree next to the piano. The improvement is very nice, sitting behind the piano as well as in the room. Pictures of my efforts are in the forums photo gallery:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2747355.html.

Ralph

Last edited by RalphK; 07/12/18 02:00 PM.
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2751015
07/12/18 03:20 PM
07/12/18 03:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,571
North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
6000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,571
North Carolina
What kind of speakers are you using?

Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2751048
07/12/18 05:23 PM
07/12/18 05:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 22
Netherlands
R
RalphK Offline
Full Member
RalphK  Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 22
Netherlands
Speakers are Mission M70 facing upwards in the cabinet behind the piano, Elipson Colonne Duson standing next to the piano, the amplifier is an Onkyo 9030 (the Novus has also Onkyo equipment on board). The Novus itself has 1 woofer in the foot, 4 midrange speakers on top and two dome tweeters. Together this is a really nice arrangement. By the way: the Kawai Novus 10, having the Milennium III Grand Action, is to my opinion the best digital grand available at this moment, only soundwise it could do with some upgrading to keep up with Yamaha's AvandGrand N3. I've done the job myself and am very happy with the result. As you may see from the pictures, it also looks more like an acoustic grand. The Shigeru Kawai samples are great and can compete with the best of the VST's like Yvory II collection, Garritan CFX, Bechstein Digital, Ravenscroft 275 (I have them all, together with many other nice samples, that is the great advantage of playing a premium quality digital piano). The Pianoteq 6 collecion (including the historical pianofortes and the new Steingraeber) is a separate chapter of course, and a perfect match to the Novus 10.

Last edited by RalphK; 07/12/18 05:24 PM.
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: RalphK] #2751145
07/13/18 03:17 AM
07/13/18 03:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 907
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
500 Post Club Member
Doug M.  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 907
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by RalphK
Speakers are Mission M70 facing upwards in the cabinet behind the piano, Elipson Colonne Duson standing next to the piano, the amplifier is an Onkyo 9030 (the Novus has also Onkyo equipment on board). The Novus itself has 1 woofer in the foot, 4 midrange speakers on top and two dome tweeters. Together this is a really nice arrangement. By the way: the Kawai Novus 10, having the Milennium III Grand Action, is to my opinion the best digital grand available at this moment, only soundwise it could do with some upgrading to keep up with Yamaha's AvandGrand N3. I've done the job myself and am very happy with the result. As you may see from the pictures, it also looks more like an acoustic grand. The Shigeru Kawai samples are great and can compete with the best of the VST's like Yvory II collection, Garritan CFX, Bechstein Digital, Ravenscroft 275 (I have them all, together with many other nice samples, that is the great advantage of playing a premium quality digital piano). The Pianoteq 6 collecion (including the historical pianofortes and the new Steingraeber) is a separate chapter of course, and a perfect match to the Novus 10.


Very nice job!

So what you've got there (apart from upward facing Mission M70's facing the ceiling at the back) is two forward facing towers. Presumably these Elipson's are more for mids/highs and the Missions just adding a bit of grunt? Do you set the balance lob-sided i.e., more power to the missions or to the Elipson? How about Eq settings?


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2751267
07/13/18 05:07 PM
07/13/18 05:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 22
Netherlands
R
RalphK Offline
Full Member
RalphK  Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 22
Netherlands
High Dough M, the two extra sets of speakers can not be balanced (the amplifier has only left-right balance not front-rear or the like), but they can be switched on separately (either behind the piano or next to the piano) or jointly. The latter gives the best result. If tone settings are neutral/direct, so no equalizing, this gives the clearest sound. The real balancing job is between the Original Kawai Novus 1+2+4 speakers (which add more presence) and the 2x2 extra speakers (which add more depth and roominess, but to much makes you feel somewhat detached from the piano). It's all quite subtle, but overall I'm very satisfied with the sound as well as with the looks.

Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: jef_citron] #2751815
07/16/18 02:58 AM
07/16/18 02:58 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 34
France
J
jef_citron Offline
Full Member
jef_citron  Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 34
France
Originally Posted by jef_citron
You can see some tests with monitors's placement :


Average :
[Linked Image]


Good, but I feel that the sound is from speakers
[Linked Image]


Rather good (for me...)
The sound feels rather natural
[Linked Image]


More simple
I don't feel the sound is going from speakers
It's rather natural
It's my favorite placement (actually...)
In addition, the concrete wall makes an echo wich increases the depht of the sound
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]




I must modify my post
The best placement I find :

A very wide sound, very natural
[Linked Image]

The disadvantage is that it takes a lot of space !


Piano Seiler 116 Accent
Keyboard Kawai VPC1 (I removed the let off system) + Pianoteq 6 + Garritan CFX Lite
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2753820
07/25/18 04:16 PM
07/25/18 04:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 7
S
Spno Offline
Junior Member
Spno  Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 7
I'm a sound engineer, who knows a lot about speakers/acoustics (both studio and live).

Studio monitors are generally designed to have a wide horizontal dispersion and a narrow vertical dispersion. The reason for wide hor is to have a wide "sweet-spot" when moving across the console (or mix area); narrow ver is to avoid reflections off console/desk. Thus, if you incline etc. speakers in any way, there will be more variance if you move L/R or forward/back. The idea is always to minimise variations of frequency response across listening position.

There is rarely a good reason not to have monitors level and in an equilateral triangle with the acoustical axis pointing at or slightly behind your ears. The only room for manoeuvre is where in the center line of the triangle one should sit, different ear shapes and also monitor design, can move this position a couple of inches (which of course changes the size of the triangle).

It's worth getting out laser measures/levels and set squares to get all this as perfect as possible. The compass app on an iphone can also get you quite close (re angles of rotation), helpful if the front wall is too far away/not level. On that point always position speakers as close or as far away from the front wall as possible. Then, individually calibrate your speakers for same SPL at mix position using pink noise...even the iPhone SPL apps will get you close (relative SPL is all that's important here).

You'll know you've got it all right when you play a mono source (try pink noise) and it sounds like there's a centre speaker in front of you.

For piano "mix position" is just your default sitting position. The chances of some novel setup working are very unlikely, especially since we all move around when we play piano, and also, the audio engineers who record/build these samples/sound engines are going to engineer them for stereo.

Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2753826
07/25/18 04:35 PM
07/25/18 04:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 7
S
Spno Offline
Junior Member
Spno  Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 7
...well, just on my last point, one novel setup that could work is a 5.1 etc. setup, but only if the sample set/sound engine has been engineered to work with 5.1 etc.; and then, have they engineered it for pianist or audience, and have they done a good job...personally, I don't think 5.1 etc. is great for music, as, unless you've a stellar reproduction system and have done a lot with your acoustics, and it's been engineered well...so much more to go wrong...a quality stereo setup can sound very immersive when done correctly...though I'll admit I'm biased.

Also wanted to mention, unless your monitors go to 20Hz, having a decent sub that's set-up correctly (EQed, phase aligned etc.) can also go a long way towards helping a digital piano sound (and feel!) more real. I'm fortunate to have excellent response to 12Hz, it's a huge difference with the sub off.

Last edited by Spno; 07/25/18 04:38 PM.
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2753855
07/25/18 07:18 PM
07/25/18 07:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 87
Shelter Cove, CA, USA
jackifus Offline
Full Member
jackifus  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 87
Shelter Cove, CA, USA
Spno,

that's one of the most informative posts I've read in a long time - thanks

Jack


Kawai MP11SE | K&M 18950 | Pianoteq Pro (Bleuthner, Steingraeber, D, K) | Schiit Fulla 2 | Sennheiser HD600 | Direct Sound EX-29 Plus (isolation headphones)
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: David B] #2753902
07/26/18 02:27 AM
07/26/18 02:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 70
LearnEveryDay Offline
Full Member
LearnEveryDay  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by David B
I guess I'm a pioneer in this area. cool Unfortunately, it was a bust. Bottom line is my monitors sound the best when the ear-line splits the woofer and tweeter, which is how I had them setup originally.

[Linked Image]

Here is the longer story. I went to Lowes and spent $20 on wood and screws. Then I built some nice monitor stands to position the monitors exactly where I wanted to try them.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The stands came out really nice and are very solid. Unfortunately, the monitors don't sound good in the lower position. The tone sounded muddy, like it was lacking clarity. So I tried flipping the monitors upside down and moving them away from the piano.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

It was a slight improvement, but still kind of muddy sounding. So, back to where they were originally. Up by my ears, clear with a full range of tones heard.

[Linked Image]

I'm out 20 bucks and several hours of work. Bummer.

God Bless,
David


Wow.. ! Quite a DIY person! I really like the custom-made stands. The basement does not look fabulous but it is clean and dry. All that matters is whether you feel comfortable sitting there and playing your music. Cosmetics fix-up can wait.


"Music is the movement of sound to reach the soul for the education of its virtue."
-- Plato
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: Spno] #2753922
07/26/18 05:24 AM
07/26/18 05:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 82
-
-Jay- Offline
Full Member
-Jay-  Offline
Full Member
-
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by Spno
I'm a sound engineer, who knows a lot about speakers/acoustics (both studio and live).

Studio monitors are generally designed to have a wide horizontal dispersion and a narrow vertical dispersion. The reason for wide hor is to have a wide "sweet-spot" when moving across the console (or mix area); narrow ver is to avoid reflections off console/desk. Thus, if you incline etc. speakers in any way, there will be more variance if you move L/R or forward/back. The idea is always to minimise variations of frequency response across listening position.

There is rarely a good reason not to have monitors level and in an equilateral triangle with the acoustical axis pointing at or slightly behind your ears. The only room for manoeuvre is where in the center line of the triangle one should sit, different ear shapes and also monitor design, can move this position a couple of inches (which of course changes the size of the triangle).

It's worth getting out laser measures/levels and set squares to get all this as perfect as possible. The compass app on an iphone can also get you quite close (re angles of rotation), helpful if the front wall is too far away/not level. On that point always position speakers as close or as far away from the front wall as possible. Then, individually calibrate your speakers for same SPL at mix position using pink noise...even the iPhone SPL apps will get you close (relative SPL is all that's important here).

You'll know you've got it all right when you play a mono source (try pink noise) and it sounds like there's a centre speaker in front of you.

For piano "mix position" is just your default sitting position. The chances of some novel setup working are very unlikely, especially since we all move around when we play piano, and also, the audio engineers who record/build these samples/sound engines are going to engineer them for stereo.


Excellent post. The difference that properly setup and calibrated studio monitors that are positioned correctly in a room can make to the frequency responsive is massive. Also acoustic treatment at the correct reflection points can improve the sound further.

Last edited by -Jay-; 07/26/18 05:24 AM.
Re: Digital piano and monitor placement [Re: Spno] #2754120
07/27/18 08:15 AM
07/27/18 08:15 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 34
France
J
jef_citron Offline
Full Member
jef_citron  Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 34
France
Thanks à lot for your post
It's very useful


Piano Seiler 116 Accent
Keyboard Kawai VPC1 (I removed the let off system) + Pianoteq 6 + Garritan CFX Lite
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

New In Our Store!
New In Our Store!
key racks with hand sanitizer
Attn: Piano Teachers, Music Teachers, Studios!

A rack made from actual piano keys, with individual hand sanitizer for each student!
Tons more music related products in our online store!
(ad)
Jazz Piano Lessons
Jazz Piano Lessons
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Eighth notes
by Progman. 09/19/18 05:31 PM
Maybe she's right
by squidbot. 09/19/18 01:24 PM
Any thoughts on this
by N W. 09/19/18 12:06 PM
How can I improve my rhythm hearing?
by michaelvi. 09/19/18 11:45 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics187,378
Posts2,746,652
Members91,042
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1