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Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 #2689195
11/13/17 02:52 PM
11/13/17 02:52 PM
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hag01 Offline OP
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So we all know that Kawai RM3 Grand II action feels heavier on the front of the keys than on the back of the keys, because of the short pivot length.
But I also sence that Kawai RM3 Grand II is generally heavy action, and feels decently heavy on all the surface of the keys, including the back of the keys.
We also know that Grand Feel action is equallty weigthed on all the surface of the keys, as opposed to the RM3 Grand II action, due to the longer pivot length of the Grand Feel
My question Is whether Kawai Grand Feel action generally noticeably lighter than RM3 Grand II action, on all the surface of the keys, not only on the front of the keys?

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Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689205
11/13/17 03:28 PM
11/13/17 03:28 PM
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To me the Grand Feel action is more balanced action. But, to take advantage and feel the action you can't be
a beginner. I consider myself early advanced at best.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689265
11/13/17 06:58 PM
11/13/17 06:58 PM
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It was until a few years ago, Kawai's top action. So if you're looking at a bargain CA17 or VPC-1 . . . .go for it! It is very nice to play.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689270
11/13/17 07:25 PM
11/13/17 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hag01
So we all know that Kawai RM3 Grand II action feels heavier on the front of the keys than on the back of the keys, because of the short pivot length.
But I also sence that Kawai RM3 Grand II is generally heavy action, and feels decently heavy on all the surface of the keys, including the back of the keys.
We also know that Grand Feel action is equallty weigthed on all the surface of the keys, as opposed to the RM3 Grand II action, due to the longer pivot length of the Grand Feel
My question Is whether Kawai Grand Feel action generally noticeably lighter than RM3 Grand II action, on all the surface of the keys, not only on the front of the keys?


Define "noticeably". You are the best person to judge that - any chance you could try them both out somewhere?

I have tried both and to me, I would say that it is noticeably lighter but not by a very large margin. However both actions are very good IMHO.

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Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689272
11/13/17 07:45 PM
11/13/17 07:45 PM
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I own both instruments CA-15 (RM3 Grand II) and CA-97 (GFII), before I had a CA-95.

When I play the CA-97 I get tired more quickly, I suppose it's "heavier" than the CA-15. Also I can play scales on the CA-15 easier/quicker/more even on the CA-15.

Last edited by Schuberto; 11/13/17 07:46 PM.
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689281
11/13/17 08:30 PM
11/13/17 08:30 PM
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I played RM3 back to back with GF and GF2 in the shop and yes, it was noticeable. At the front of the key they are about the same, but when you (I) actually play a song, you (I) sometimes play deeper into the keys and it's noticeably more work with RM3. I would not buy an RM3 keyboard at this point based on my experience in the shop.

But yes, both actions give you the sensation that they are heavy. I think that might be a marketing way of showing us that it's high quality (humans associate weight with value).

Actually I went back and forth from GF2 to the acoustic grands in the room and they felt similar in weight and other respects. The biggest difference I noticed was that the GF2 bottoms out noticeably more softly (onto foam), while the acoustic keys stop abruptly when they bottom out. Sometimes we have the impression that acoustics require less effort but I think it's primarily because acoustics are extremely loud...much louder than we normally set our digitals to. Our hands work harder to compensate.

Last edited by gvfarns; 11/13/17 08:34 PM.
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: gvfarns] #2689284
11/13/17 08:41 PM
11/13/17 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
But yes, both actions give you the sensation that they are heavy. I think that might be a marketing way of showing us that it's high quality (humans associate weight with value).


Interesting. I thought the opposite, that the GF and GF2 felt light when I first laid hands on them. But I think it's because they seemed so buttery smooth compared to standard plastic actions.

Originally Posted by gvfarns
The biggest difference I noticed was that the GF2 bottoms out noticeably more softly (onto foam), while the acoustic keys stop abruptly when they bottom out.


This is 100% the case for me as well. The GF/GF2 actions silently compress into soft foam, whereas acoustics (and hybrids like the NU1) bottom out rather assertively onto felt disks. I've thought about this before and considered that this was the one surefire way I would be able to tell a GF from an acoustic action in a blind test.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689287
11/13/17 09:06 PM
11/13/17 09:06 PM
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You have varying opinions, and that's because everyone's a bit different in their mechanics on how they play, what affects them more, what they prefer, etc. IMO, the GF action is noticeably lighter than the RM3-II action. But both are great. The RM3-II may present more problems for people, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the consensus for people on this forum. But I think you can tell a difference, but to compare front of the keys vs back of the keys, most of us don't have the luxury of side-by-side comparisons.

I just play an action and I know if I like it or not.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689376
11/14/17 07:50 AM
11/14/17 07:50 AM
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I almost pulled the trigger and ordered a Kawai MP11SE, until I had a serious talk with my piano teacher yesterday.

He strongly recommend me to stay with VPC1.

The conclusion from our talk was, that the VPC1 has one drawback, which is that sometimes the white keys feel too heavy when pressing them between the black keys, due to its short pivot.

The MP11\MP11SE doesn't has this drawback because its pivot is longer, but, based on a lot of post I saw on pianoworld and other forums, the Grand Feel action is overall lighter than the RM3 Grand II. Lighter enough that you can sense it.
And this a bad thing. I prefer heavy action. I wouldn't replace my VPC1 with something lighter. even slightly lighter can ruin all the piano experience for me.
My piano teacher knows me well, so no one knows better than him how I hate lighter action for piano.
So bottom line, both instruments has pros an cons, but VPC1 probably fits better for me.

Also, the short pivot of the VPC1 doesn't bothers me in 99% for the repertoir I'm playing, and in the other 1%, after 7 months with the VPC1, it already bothers me a lot less. I'm getting used to the VPC1 action more and more...

Hope it is interesting someone.

Last edited by hag01; 11/14/17 07:56 AM.
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689424
11/14/17 11:49 AM
11/14/17 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by hag01

The MP11\MP11SE doesn't has this drawback because its pivot is longer, but, based on a lot of post I saw on pianoworld and other forums, the Grand Feel action is overall lighter than the RM3 Grand II. Lighter enough that you can sense it.
And this a bad thing. I prefer heavy action. I wouldn't replace my VPC1 with something lighter. even slightly lighter can ruin all the piano experience for me.

...


Hope it is interesting someone.


Well, it certainly is interesting! In the end, you should choose the DP and action that you like the best, so it sounds like you made the right choice with the VPC1, and you may be chasing dragons trying too hard to make incremental improvements to that.

Regarding heavy versus light actions, I do feel the MP11 tends towards the lighter side of the (very) few grands I've played. But for me, it is the one single DP action that best mimics the 214cm grand I get to play (and wish I owned), by a country mile. So that's my benchmark. It's not so much whether I prefer a heavier of a lighter action, it's whether the action best matches the AP I really like. Which was an interesting shift in perspective for me--I previously judged DP actions on personal preference, but after finding a benchmark grand (and I have no idea if this grand is good or bad by any accepted standards) my preferences shifted to what felt most like that grand.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689430
11/14/17 12:00 PM
11/14/17 12:00 PM
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Interesting.

I also like the VPC1 because the action is similar to the actions I used to - the action of my upright piano, and the action of my piano teacher upright piano.
Very very close feel, and all the three actions is almost identically as heavy.
My upright piano is with long pivot(saw it last time my piano technician visit me) so the white keys is evenly weighted across their length, that is why I was a bit disappointed from the VPC1 at the begining.
But at my teacher's piano I feel the weight of the keys is not so even across their length, so I'm pretty sure the pivot in his piano is quite short(even though I didn't see its action for inside).

Last edited by hag01; 11/14/17 12:00 PM.
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: Schuberto] #2689454
11/14/17 02:05 PM
11/14/17 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto
I own both instruments CA-15 (RM3 Grand II) and CA-97 (GFII), before I had a CA-95.

When I play the CA-97 I get tired more quickly, I suppose it's "heavier" than the CA-15. Also I can play scales on the CA-15 easier/quicker/more even on the CA-15.


Would anyone like to concur/comment on this? It sounds VERY interesting . . . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: peterws] #2689473
11/14/17 03:16 PM
11/14/17 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Schuberto
I own both instruments CA-15 (RM3 Grand II) and CA-97 (GFII), before I had a CA-95.

When I play the CA-97 I get tired more quickly, I suppose it's "heavier" than the CA-15. Also I can play scales on the CA-15 easier/quicker/more even on the CA-15.


Would anyone like to concur/comment on this? It sounds VERY interesting . . . . . .



The funny thing: when I played the first time both instruments side by side, I also thought that the CA-15 was a bit heavier than the CA-97. But after playing 30 min on the CA-97 I was surprised that I was much more tired (my finger muscles) than I usually was on the CA-15 ( the instrument I had and exercised on before over months).

Besides, I feel a much better (articulation) control on the GFII than on the RM3. I would NOT change my GFII against the RM3 Grand II.

Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: Schuberto] #2689485
11/14/17 04:09 PM
11/14/17 04:09 PM
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That makes sense to me. Sounds like the benefit of long key inertia . . . . .


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Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2689505
11/14/17 05:31 PM
11/14/17 05:31 PM
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Grand feel has much more mass to the system, not just from the length but there are more counterweights and so presumably heavier hammers (given the static downweight at the front of the keys is presumably similar).

Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: Bambers] #2691841
11/25/17 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
Grand feel has much more mass to the system, not just from the length but there are more counterweights and so presumably heavier hammers (given the static downweight at the front of the keys is presumably similar).


In order to have similar downweight, the GF only requires less counterweight than RM3 had. This makes sense as GF1 didn't have any counterweight in some keys while as far as I know RM3 had counterweights in all keys. Moreover, because the key is a longer lever, it would need to have less mass than the shorter key on RM3 in order to have the same rotational inertia. In other words, RM3 would have more mass in hammers and counterweights in order to compensate for the shorter key length.

Not an engineer, but I would expect heavier counterweights and more total mass in RM3 than in GF.

Last edited by gvfarns; 11/25/17 01:22 AM.
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2691848
11/25/17 02:36 AM
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GF1 has counterweights in 87 keys. The only one without a counterweight is C8 (the highest key). There's no way I could tell without opening it up, honestly.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2692012
11/25/17 08:00 PM
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What i want to know is if pianists prefer a concert grand action over the actions used in the smaller high end models ?
Do you prefer the action of a Steinway D over the action in a Steinway C/B taken into account that both are regulated the best way possible ?
If that's the case i presume a GF2 mimicks the concert grand feel the best.
However i personally feel i tiny bit more disconnect between hand-ear in most concert actions compared to the models from 200m-230m.

Let me elaborate........as a lifetime pianotuner i have encountered just about any action available and there is a point in keylength that leads to some sort of disconnection between ear and fingers.
The most obvious examples are good restored pianola actions that have huge keys because of the pianola hardware space that is needed to install the ''pianola'' device on top of the empty space above the keys.
I had to tune several pianola's that had extremely long keys and the hardware removed.
The keys were simply to long to make the overall experiences precise and intimite between ear and fingers.
It has nothing to do with weight but the feeling you are controlling the hammer action somewhere in the far distance......if that makes sense....

My personal preference has always been those actions of grand piano's in between 200m-230m.
I remember tuning the Bosendorfer grand Imperial in a showroom when i first started as a pianotuner next to the 225m model.
I liked the 225m more,....both soundwise and action wise. It seemed more even and balanced in a showroom environment.
I had the same experience between Steinway D, C and B.
I prefer the C and B over the D in any environment apart from a concert stage which i will not perform on as a pianist
The control of the largests action is more difficult in my opinion,...just as most small baby grands that have to short keys to make the playing experience top notch.


I think those marketing ''tricks'' about ''full size keys'' are exagerated recently.
Therefor my question if people really favour the actions of top concert grands over the top models just below......because i don't.
I can imagine people actually prefer the RM3 over the GF(2) action for that reason.

Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: hag01] #2692058
11/26/17 02:27 AM
11/26/17 02:27 AM
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Pianistje, your experience as a tuner is priceless, and I did feel the same about Boesendorfer. I liked a 225 better (action and price) over the imperial in the ehowroom.
However, I believe that doesn't necessarily hold true for the GF2 vs RM3 in my opinion. In the case of an medium acoustic, the pivot of the key is still 25 or more cm back, even in the small ones it's 22-23 cm back. Which still makes for a decent uniformity in force needed to push the key on front or in the back.
The RM3 is much shorter and is rather uncomfortable to play deep into the keys. But it does feel weightier and some people may prefer that, and is is at a different price point. However, GF2 is definitely more balanced and closer to a nice medium-wieghted acoustic.
Also, for acoustics the difference in length may also translate to a difference in sound. The strings are longer and struck further back in concert grands so the primary source source may feel further back. That may also be an explanation for the slightly less connected feeling (or it may not). In a digital this won't be an issue though.

Re: Is Kawai Grand Feel action noticeably lighter than RM3 [Re: mcoll] #2692074
11/26/17 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Pianistje, your experience as a tuner is priceless, and I did feel the same about Boesendorfer. I liked a 225 better (action and price) over the imperial in the ehowroom.
However, I believe that doesn't necessarily hold true for the GF2 vs RM3 in my opinion. In the case of an medium acoustic, the pivot of the key is still 25 or more cm back, even in the small ones it's 22-23 cm back. Which still makes for a decent uniformity in force needed to push the key on front or in the back.
The RM3 is much shorter and is rather uncomfortable to play deep into the keys. But it does feel weightier and some people may prefer that, and is is at a different price point. However, GF2 is definitely more balanced and closer to a nice medium-wieghted acoustic.
Also, for acoustics the difference in length may also translate to a difference in sound. The strings are longer and struck further back in concert grands so the primary source source may feel further back. That may also be an explanation for the slightly less connected feeling (or it may not). In a digital this won't be an issue though.

Thanks !

You make valid points of course concerning the GF2 vs RM3 on which i am not an expert on a technical level !.

I know a concervatory pianist (14) here in the Netherlands who visits Italy every month for enhancedr education he cannot receive at the The Hague conservatory and he plays a Steinway L at home.
It plays heavy and needs considerable technique to execute the difficult classical pieces. It was taken care off by a Steinway expert after it was bought in a shop to make sure the action was anything but light and easy going.....point is that (like you explained very well) i can understand that some people prefer the RM3 over the GF2 just because of the substancial ''feel''.
I still use my Kawai MP8 (recently regulated the AWA Grand PRO action) and couldn't believe how mediocre the newer AWA Grand PRO II played by comparison for my personal taste.
Almost all initial reviews in magazines were praising all the goodies in the newer AWA Grand PRO II, but after some time i read the first buyers remorce reviews.
I have played AWA Grand PRO II counteless of times and it simply doesn't have that heavy real/hybrid action feel that the AWA Grand PRO had.
And i was certainly not the only one who came to that conclusion despite the industry joining the bandwagon of the superior updated action.

I know RM3 very well, GF somewhat....GF2 not so much, so my opinion in the whole discussion is pretty invalid.

I was urging people to empty their heads from all they have read and heard about action A vs B and play without bias. You may come to a very different conclusion that your wallet seems to like too :-)


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