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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2691506
11/23/17 01:37 PM
11/23/17 01:37 PM
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Mountain Time, USA
OneWatt Offline
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Pologuy -

Your issue that shipping is not "free" when negotiating a discounted price with Sweetwater is a perfectly fair characterization. But with due respect, I feel the situation is more nuanced...

I recently bought a gift for my son-in-law from Sweetwater (at their regular online price) that included "free" shipping. He needed to return it. In turn, I received a 100% refund of the entire amount and was NOT charged for any shipping in either direction.

No doubt this is what "free" shipping means to both of us.

For negotiated discounts a more accurate description for Sweetwater's shipping policy - which kicks in only if you return the item - would be called for. If they failed to explain that, shame on them.

Otherwise, the modified policy itself doesn't seem unfair, so long as it's properly explained at the time. I think that's what you are getting at, correct?

FWIW, in my experience Sweetwater has been entirely ethical and straightforward to deal with over the years. I do appreciate you felt frustrated with your experience but might it have been a tad harsh to say they're not honest and ethical?

- OneWatt

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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Granyala] #2691513
11/23/17 02:11 PM
11/23/17 02:11 PM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Granyala


Quote
https://www.sweetwater.com/about/free-shipping/]If you return your purchase, then the cost of shipping will be deducted from any refund or credit.


Right there in the bullet point. Not hidden away in some AGB or anything. Doesn't get anymore fair and transparent than that.



Well, not entirely clear .... to me, at least.

When I read that, I assumed they mean't .... The cost of shipping it BACK TO Sweetwater will be deducted from any refund or credit.

They do not mean that. They mean the cost they originally incurred in shipping it to me will be deducted from my refund.

And, of course, on top of that will be the shipping I have to pay in order to get it shipped back to sweetwater.

So, the entire penalty for changing my mind will be cost of shipping X 2.


Whether that is a fair business practice doesn't really matter .... it is what it is and you shop there or you don't ... your choice.

They are in business to make money and have decided they have to do things that way or they will go out of business.

Their perfect right.



Last edited by dmd; 11/23/17 02:13 PM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2691518
11/23/17 03:02 PM
11/23/17 03:02 PM
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Hernando, MS
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Pologuy,
What if Sweetwater simply said "free shipping, but returns have a 15% restocking fee. Would you still claim they were being dishonest? If so, why? If not then what's the difference other than some overly pedantic argument about semantics?


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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2691523
11/23/17 03:48 PM
11/23/17 03:48 PM
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Does Piano World offer refunds for defective threads?
I don’t have time to read through the fine print.

Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2691537
11/23/17 04:38 PM
11/23/17 04:38 PM
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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Yes, your full purchase price will be refunded. Including shipping!

Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: OneWatt] #2691542
11/23/17 05:21 PM
11/23/17 05:21 PM
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Boynton Beach, FL
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Originally Posted by OneWatt


I recently bought a gift for my son-in-law from Sweetwater (at their regular online price) that included "free" shipping. He needed to return it. In turn, I received a 100% refund of the entire amount and was NOT charged for any shipping in either direction.

No doubt this is what "free" shipping means to both of us.


Thank you. Since my purchase was several years ago, I couldn't recall if I paid shipping when I returned my VPC1. Either way, it was perfectly fair and I've used them for other purchases since.

Hopefully your post dispels any misunderstandings of how Sweetwater conducts their business.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: dmd] #2691545
11/23/17 05:23 PM
11/23/17 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
When I read that, I assumed they mean't .... The cost of shipping it BACK TO Sweetwater will be deducted from any refund or credit.

Eeeh, considering that YOU have to pay to send it back, your interpretation does not make much sense, as it cannot be anything else than the initial shipping costs.

Unless you expected them to send a retour badge, like some merchants do (e.g. when buying clothing on Amazon, my parents never paid for stuff they sent back). Things like that are generally only done for SMALL packets with rather minimal shipping fees though.

Last edited by Granyala; 11/23/17 05:23 PM.

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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Granyala] #2691571
11/23/17 08:32 PM
11/23/17 08:32 PM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by dmd
When I read that, I assumed they mean't .... The cost of shipping it BACK TO Sweetwater will be deducted from any refund or credit.

Eeeh, considering that YOU have to pay to send it back, your interpretation does not make much sense, as it cannot be anything else than the initial shipping costs.

Unless you expected them to send a retour badge, like some merchants do (e.g. when buying clothing on Amazon, my parents never paid for stuff they sent back). Things like that are generally only done for SMALL packets with rather minimal shipping fees though.


I have often found that merchants (not sure about Sweetwater) provide a return label for returning merchandise and that covers the shipping cost back.

That is why I assumed they mean't THAT shipping cost .... the shipping cost BACK to the merchant,.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: FrankCox] #2691733
11/24/17 02:33 PM
11/24/17 02:33 PM
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I have shopped at Sweetwater for over 20 years , although the most expensive item was only $1000. I believe as you get your own rep and become regular customer there may be a way for lower than advertised but I never bought anything less than advertised.I understand the return shipping cost belongs to me but I have never been deducted any of original shipping. Maybe only
when requesting lower price? An example is the Kawai ES 110. Didn't buy it from Sweetwater cause they had none but did buy from major place BUT I did find same piano ($729) for $667 some other places but didn't feel comfortable. As a guitarist for 60 years and recently learning piano, I have used successfully Sweetwater, Music123, American Musical, Musicians Friend, and
B&H. Prices are similar for all usually.

Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2692030
11/25/17 10:28 PM
11/25/17 10:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 164
Massachussets, Florida
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This thread is a frustrating waste of time.

Surprise! *Every* internet retailer in the US uses the term "free shipping" to describe their service. ProAudioStar, GuitarCenter, Musicians Friend, Alto ... I couldn't find one that didn't use that language.

Dig into the fine print, and anyone can learn exactly how it works. Fail to read the plain language, too bad.

If the OP stubbornly insists on maintaining this ridiculous pedantic position, there won't be anyone to buy from online.

And, oh yes, dragging Sweetwater's good name into a completely unjustified rant -- not fair in the least.

I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with Sweetwater over the years (as well as several other internet retailers) and I have found them all to be exceptionally honest and ethical. I've never had a reason to complain about them, or anyone else.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Practice: Bosie 200, Yam N3
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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: toddy] #2692069
11/26/17 05:54 AM
11/26/17 05:54 AM
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Wales
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Originally Posted by toddy
Hello again vox!

Now that this subject has been sent flying into the weeds by cphollis, maybe I can be permitted a little OT return of your compliment: Hi Toddy!

Originally Posted by toddy
I hadn't realised you were a banker's lawyer.

Neither had I. confused Maybe that's where those millions in my bank account came from. cool

Last edited by voxpops; 11/26/17 05:55 AM.

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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: cphollis] #2692109
11/26/17 12:53 PM
11/26/17 12:53 PM
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Posts: 355
Milwaukee, WI
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Pologuy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by cphollis
This thread is a frustrating waste of time.

Surprise! *Every* internet retailer in the US uses the term "free shipping" to describe their service. ProAudioStar, GuitarCenter, Musicians Friend, Alto ... I couldn't find one that didn't use that language.

Dig into the fine print, and anyone can learn exactly how it works. Fail to read the plain language, too bad.

If the OP stubbornly insists on maintaining this ridiculous pedantic position, there won't be anyone to buy from online.

And, oh yes, dragging Sweetwater's good name into a completely unjustified rant -- not fair in the least.

I've spent tens of thousands of dollars with Sweetwater over the years (as well as several other internet retailers) and I have found them all to be exceptionally honest and ethical. I've never had a reason to complain about them, or anyone else.


So we are back to the "everyone does it" excuse?

As stated, that "excuse" stopped working for most of us in the 5th grade.

Not withstanding the fact that not "everyone else does it" (Amazon, Walmart, Best Buy, etc., etc., etc.)... it appears that ProAudioStar (just the one I looked at in your post) - is even worse than Sweetwater.

They state they have "free shipping" - but then in addition to stating that if you return the item - not only will they deduct the shipping cost of the "free shipping" - but they will also deduct another 10% (as a restocking fee).

I was willing to let this thread die - but it appears that the few people who condone these false, deceptive, and misleading business practices (that violate both federal and every states' laws) want to keep it alive.



Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2692118
11/26/17 01:28 PM
11/26/17 01:28 PM
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South Wales
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Colin Miles Offline
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Perhaps the moderators should kill this thread?


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: voxpops] #2692119
11/26/17 01:30 PM
11/26/17 01:30 PM
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Portugal
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by toddy
Hello again vox!

Hi toddy


Hello Vox, voice of calm detachment and urbane humour. A veritable latter day HL Mencken or Alistair Cooke.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Colin Miles] #2692124
11/26/17 02:39 PM
11/26/17 02:39 PM
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Mountain Time, USA
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Perhaps the moderators should kill this thread?


Less drastic, perhaps, if we all agree to unsubscribe it will merely wither on the vine?

Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Kawai James] #2692217
11/26/17 11:44 PM
11/26/17 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Sweetwater is an excellent retailer with a very strong reputation.

With the greatest respect, I think the topic you have raised is a storm in a teacup.

Kind regards,
James
x

I completely agree with this.

Although Sweetwater does not unanimously offer the lowest prices they have been a straight up company to deal with and they even follow up to inquire how things have worked out.

As far as this complaint that shipping is not free I think the OP is mistaken. This argument reminds me how people take "the customer is always right" to ridiculous territory. It is a twisted way of looking at things. No company owes you shipping both ways should you choose to return something. "Free" can certainly mean one way and only if you keep the item and do not return it. "Free" does not mean free to do whatever you want at their expense.

To put it in proper perspective you might as well expect them to pick up the item and ship it to your brother-in-law in another state so he can check it out before making final decision. When he is done with it have them pick it up and send it to your cousin in Europe. They have to draw the line. Initial shipping to your location of the item is free. If you decide you don't want the item when you receive it the free shipping deal of null. You pay the return shipping AND in many cases the initial charges of having it sent to you. They are in business to sell things not ship things for you.

They are sweetening the deal to get the item to you intending for you to complete the transaction and not to change your mind.

If you feel you have been burned because you had to pay shipping after something was sent to you that is simply anger that you had to pay for your freedom to choose not to keep the item. It is a risk of shopping online. It can be a perk if you like the item and the perk can dissolve should you later change your mind.






Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: o0Ampy0o] #2692307
11/27/17 11:53 AM
11/27/17 11:53 AM
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Milwaukee, WI
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Pologuy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by o0Ampy0o
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Sweetwater is an excellent retailer with a very strong reputation.

With the greatest respect, I think the topic you have raised is a storm in a teacup.

Kind regards,
James
x

I completely agree with this.

Although Sweetwater does not unanimously offer the lowest prices they have been a straight up company to deal with and they even follow up to inquire how things have worked out.

As far as this complaint that shipping is not free I think the OP is mistaken. This argument reminds me how people take "the customer is always right" to ridiculous territory. It is a twisted way of looking at things. No company owes you shipping both ways should you choose to return something. "Free" can certainly mean one way and only if you keep the item and do not return it. "Free" does not mean free to do whatever you want at their expense.

To put it in proper perspective you might as well expect them to pick up the item and ship it to your brother-in-law in another state so he can check it out before making final decision. When he is done with it have them pick it up and send it to your cousin in Europe. They have to draw the line. Initial shipping to your location of the item is free. If you decide you don't want the item when you receive it the free shipping deal of null. You pay the return shipping AND in many cases the initial charges of having it sent to you. They are in business to sell things not ship things for you.

They are sweetening the deal to get the item to you intending for you to complete the transaction and not to change your mind.

If you feel you have been burned because you had to pay shipping after something was sent to you that is simply anger that you had to pay for your freedom to choose not to keep the item. It is a risk of shopping online. It can be a perk if you like the item and the perk can dissolve should you later change your mind.



This post doesn't even warrant a response - other than to say it is utterly ridiculous.


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2692350
11/27/17 02:19 PM
11/27/17 02:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,401
Raleigh, North Carolina
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PG: I think you're just being unrealistic or stubborn.

I can agree that a claim of "free" is generally false.
But so was the claim that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree.
I don't like the misrepresentation. But we all know lots of little white lies. And we don't dwell on them.

I think o0Ampy0o (among others) has given a sensible treatment of the economics.
All of which boils down to a restatement of my earlier contention: Nothing is free.

Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2692357
11/27/17 03:16 PM
11/27/17 03:16 PM
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PG: Perhaps it would help if you actually went out and bought something, you got a list in your signature you want, but it often seems to me there is an agenda where you have some reason talk yourself out of it or complicate matters. First you talk yourself out of the NOVUS, too expensive. Somehow, I was not one bit surprised it came down to that, everything you said leading up to that in your posts said enough in the NOVUS thread, it seems as if something doesn't quite suit your agenda in every detail or it doesn't agree with your wallet it is a no.

Now there are problems with a retailer ? At this rate you'll never buy anything !

You could be waiting for another year for a VPC2, if it will ever arrive, then when it does it could be something like, why on earth did kawai put GFC in it instead of GF 2, I am not buying.

There are plenty nice boards out there, go try and buy something and enjoy the piano. smile

Sorry if it sounds somewhat strident/blunt, but really, threads like this .... luckily, I let most of it go in one ear and out the other.

Personally I've never had any issues in the UK with any retailer buying anything music related, yes, I had to return items I was not happy with on a couple occasions ( mainly studio monitors), but everything was resolved admirably in the end and I had to swallow the return shipping, I have no problem with that, I knew that before I started. In fact, in one case the retailer actually refunded the whole lot and swallowed the return shipping because of delays, which was a mistake on their side. It was a nice gesture all the same to compensate me in this way.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
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Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy] #2692363
11/27/17 03:37 PM
11/27/17 03:37 PM
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audioworksct.com has incredible prices. Ask for Frank. Please tell them that Larry Levin sent you.

I don't buy every keyboard from them, but for over 10 years, every time a new top-of-the-line PSR arranger comes out, I buy two from Frank and sell my used ones on Ebay. Once I wanted to see if I could get Sweetwater to match because I was attracted to their financing. My Sweetwater salesman said no way.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
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