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New Chinese made Baldwin 7 foot grand #2691149
11/22/17 01:23 AM
11/22/17 01:23 AM
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7naturals Offline OP
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For a long time when calling the Baldwin dealers and asking about a 7 foot or nine foot grand they would say it is not made.. Finally the 7 foot is now available.. The once known SF-10 is now the BP-211.. I understand only 20 have been made.. The dealer in my town received 2 of them and before they arrived one had already been sold. The pictures linked to the gallery are of the one left that is in the showroom.. Some details I found interesting: the hammers are from Renner and have a green underfelt, the other smaller grand's use Abel. The lid and key cover is on hydraulics so it will not slam shut or fall. Gone are the accu-just hitch pins. the string scale has changed on the new model, the sound holes on the plate are redesigned, bracing of the plate from underneath is similar in design to the Steinway B. The down weight was in the 52 to 54 gram area , lid prop has 3 sizes and fit into each other. decal on the soundboard, differently tapered sharps ..
Since the piano had just arrived not long ago it was still settling into its new home and it needed prep and tuning, so a critic of the sound and feel would not be valid yet. But I could hear a good potential and feel out of the box. So after prep and tuning will have to post a video and recording.. The pictures are not the greatest but at least for now until I get a better camera its something. As of now I cannot find anything on this piano and this may be the only thing for the moment until others show up at the dealers.. I was hoping to see and take pictures of the action but as it was late. Maybe next time. The price on the 7 foot is around $40k.
The new Baldwin grand models are according to centimeters..BP-148= 4'10", BP-152=5',BP-165=5'5",BP-178=5'10", BP-190=6'3", BP-211=6'11"..BP-275=9'1"
So this is all I have for now on this piano that until recently did not exist. Hopefully someone with a better camera can get some better pictures and post more info on it...



PS- Not sure how to post pictures to the form so here is the link to the photo gallery..

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2691145/new-baldwin-bp-211.html





bp-211











Last edited by 7naturals; 11/22/17 04:33 AM.
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Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691157
11/22/17 03:06 AM
11/22/17 03:06 AM
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Judging by the hydraulics on the lid I would guess this piano comes from the hailun factory. It is Chinese made?

Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691168
11/22/17 04:14 AM
11/22/17 04:14 AM
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7naturals Offline OP
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Yes, it is Chinese made. Ill add that to the post.

Last edited by 7naturals; 11/22/17 04:30 AM.
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691172
11/22/17 05:05 AM
11/22/17 05:05 AM
Joined: May 2001
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Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
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Thank you for the post. I had not known about this model.

Originally Posted by 7naturals
The once known SF-10 is now the BP-211.


This is not meant as a negative to this piano, but it is a totally new design to Baldwin. It looks like there is no visible influence from the SF-10.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
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Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691195
11/22/17 07:44 AM
11/22/17 07:44 AM
Joined: May 2006
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Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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To my knowledge, this is not produced by Hailun. The Magic Lid/HLPS/whatever you want to call their lid assist mechanism is something that’s starting to be offered by other makers, if memory serves.

This model was supposed to be on display at NAMM last year, and I’d bet we might see one this time around.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691199
11/22/17 08:17 AM
11/22/17 08:17 AM
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Richmond, Virginia
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Almaviva Offline
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I thought that Baldwin grands were made by Parsons Music, but "sroreilly" thinks that this one might be made by Hailun. Can you tell us the name of the manufacturer?

Last edited by Almaviva; 11/22/17 08:18 AM.
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691206
11/22/17 09:02 AM
11/22/17 09:02 AM
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It looks like a Steinway with squared off sound holes

Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691214
11/22/17 10:00 AM
11/22/17 10:00 AM
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Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
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Keith D Kerman Offline
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It is made at Parsons.


Keith D Kerman
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Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691216
11/22/17 10:18 AM
11/22/17 10:18 AM
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Chicago
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Finally. This has been rumored about for a couple years and now there are some real pianos to examine. Given that Parsons builds the other Baldwin grands, I can’t see them using another maker for the 211.

It does look more Steinway-ish than Baldwin-
With an SMP of just under $41k (current PB), this one could prove a formidable competitor IF the tone and action live up to the expectations of the best SF-10s. Time will tell.

I must express some sadness in knowing this piano is not built here. I a also not sure about calling this a Baldwin. If it can stand on its own merits, why not use a new name. Hailun does this.

Thanks for posting this information. Please keep us updated.


Baldwin SF-10
Petrof III
Chickering Console (1950s)
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Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691295
11/22/17 03:05 PM
11/22/17 03:05 PM
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New Hampshire
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Perhaps they should call it a Bald-way, or a Stein-win.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: WilliamTruitt] #2691298
11/22/17 03:26 PM
11/22/17 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
Perhaps they should call it a Bald-way, or a Stein-win.


To go with a Mason & Hambone?


Benjamin Rogers
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Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691304
11/22/17 03:52 PM
11/22/17 03:52 PM
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MADISON, MISSISSIPPI
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It will be interesting to see the reviews for this one. Will it be up to the level as the SF 10? Time will tell... I notice it had the Steinway bell underneath to stabilize the sound board. I thought that was only a Steinway feature. Thanks for passing along the info and pictures.

Last edited by Piano Practice; 11/22/17 03:52 PM.

Piano Practice
_______________
1972 Baldwin R #196745
Casio CDP 100

Soli Deo Gloria
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: Piano Practice] #2691323
11/22/17 04:45 PM
11/22/17 04:45 PM
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Maryland, USA
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Originally Posted by Piano Practice
It will be interesting to see the reviews for this one. Will it be up to the level as the SF 10? Time will tell... I notice it had the Steinway bell underneath to stabilize the sound board. I thought that was only a Steinway feature. Thanks for passing along the info and pictures.


I never got to crawl under a Yamaha CF4 or CF6 but I heard they also have these treble bells.

My understanding, from reading posts from Mr. Del Fandrich on this forum, of these treble bells is that they stiffened the cast iron frame further in the treble section, therefore vibration energy of treble strings won't dissipate (through capo bar) to the frame.


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691337
11/22/17 05:16 PM
11/22/17 05:16 PM
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7naturals Offline OP
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Correct , as I understood it that treble bell is to stabilize that part of the plate. Interesting to note, If you spray painted that bell black it would look exactly like the one on a Steinway B .. It also looked like they might be interchangeable. Another thing that I found was that the agraffes that are used have a pin going through them horizontally so the strings are in contact with a pin rather than a chamfered hole. Someone might know more about this and give some more info on it. I also wanted to correct something as to how many BP 211s were made. I had wrote that 20 were made, actually only 12 have been made.. So a correction there. I will be getting more information on the specs and will post for those interested as it gives comparisons to the Steinway.. I also got information on the models and it listed a BP-275. So it looks like a 9 foot is on the way at some point.. Will see...:]

Last edited by 7naturals; 11/22/17 11:00 PM.
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691340
11/22/17 05:36 PM
11/22/17 05:36 PM
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Chicago
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Very interesting. I don’t suppose you would care to identify the dealer who was fortunate to snag two of these, would you?


Baldwin SF-10
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Chickering Console (1950s)
Associate Member PTG (Chicago chapter)
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: WilliamTruitt] #2691351
11/22/17 06:32 PM
11/22/17 06:32 PM
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Dear William:

I don't know if you're familiar with that famous quote: "There is no Garbo. There is no Dietrich. There is only Louise Brooks."

In a COMPLETELY different context, one might say: "There is no Mason. There is no Hamlin. There is only Bruce Clark."

- at least to these old ears.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691354
11/22/17 06:47 PM
11/22/17 06:47 PM
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The information poste by 7naturals is very informative given that Baldwin itself has not even listed this piano on its website. They do list all the US made Artist grands, along with list prices, and the home page still touts the praises of the pianos that are built in Arkansas. Moreover, the main Gibson site makes no reference to Baldwin being part of its product family.

Last edited by Duke of Dunning; 11/22/17 06:48 PM.

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Petrof III
Chickering Console (1950s)
Associate Member PTG (Chicago chapter)
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: Duke of Dunning] #2691374
11/22/17 08:20 PM
11/22/17 08:20 PM
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Richmond, Virginia
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Almaviva Offline
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Originally Posted by Duke of Dunning
Finally. This has been rumored about for a couple years and now there are some real pianos to examine. Given that Parsons builds the other Baldwin grands, I can’t see them using another maker for the 211.

It does look more Steinway-ish than Baldwin-


Interesting that you should make this observation about the appearance of this new Baldwin BP211, which is the same length as the Steinway Model B. A knowledgeable acquaintance of mine in the piano business said that the pianos made in China by Parsons Music (Brodmann, Wilh. Steinberg, Friedrich Grotrian, etc.) are very close copies of Steinway designs. As Parsons makes the Baldwin grands, it is only logical that these Baldwin-branded instruments also resemble Steinways.

Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: Karl Watson] #2691383
11/22/17 08:55 PM
11/22/17 08:55 PM
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Ah Karl, yes, I am indeed familiar with that quote and "Lulu".

And one might also say that, "There is some Mason. There is some Hamlin. There is even still some Gertz. There is not only Bruce Clark, although sometimes it may seem that way."


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: WilliamTruitt] #2691390
11/22/17 09:54 PM
11/22/17 09:54 PM
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William:

With great respect, I can't agree.
A nameplate, a full perimeter frame, and a spider do not suffice to make them Masons.
BC has admitted that absolutely NO, repeat NO reference whatever was made to the former BB and A scales.
They are new pianos. I actually LIKE the new B and AA as they are good pianos, in my opinion, although not suggesting Mason tone in any way.
I owned an A from the late Boston period and spent hours every day for years working at that piano. It was characteristic in every way, complete with an ORIGINAL W,N&G action (never my favourite). When it comes to Mason tone, I can't be fooled, fooled by out of control yelling tirades, two inches from my nose, spit flying everywhere, or by promotional literature that suggest that the new pianos have Mason DNA. They don't.
Can you name a single pianist of international repute that is welcome at Haverhill ?
When I was a boy at the National Music Camp (Interlochen), I often played a rather elderly Lester concert grand (it had two sticks). Although most of the concert pianos were Baldwins, good ones, the Lester was in an out of the way venue that meant that I could work at it rather often. It was better in every way than the new, so called CC.
Sorry to be intense about this, but, there you have it.

Karl

Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691391
11/22/17 09:57 PM
11/22/17 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 7naturals
Correct , as I understood it that treble bell is to stabilize that part of the plate. Interesting to note, If you spray painted that bell black it would look exactly like the one on the Steinway B right next to it.. It also looked like they might be interchangeable.

...


The Steinway B next to this BP 211 appeared to be the newer (2016? and later) production NY B with wooden rim veneer. I have tried some of these but, again, I didn't crawl underneath to look at the treble bell. An internal presentation shared by my local Steinway dealer showed that treble bells out of NY factory's new production are bronzed instead of painted black.

My NY A (2013) has a bronzed bell, consistent with what Steinway's presentation said. My Hamburg B (rebuilt 1969) has a painted black one.

Last edited by Davdoc; 11/22/17 09:58 PM. Reason: typo

1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691392
11/22/17 10:03 PM
11/22/17 10:03 PM
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Chicago
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Esteemed gentlemen,

This is a Baldwin thread. Take your Mason & Hamlin paternity dispute to a new thread.

This isn’t the Maury show

Peace and harmony . . .


Baldwin SF-10
Petrof III
Chickering Console (1950s)
Associate Member PTG (Chicago chapter)
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: Duke of Dunning] #2691394
11/22/17 10:13 PM
11/22/17 10:13 PM
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your grace, on this topic, have the post-Burgett era mason & hamlins retained the unique characteristics of the pre-1940 instruments, or, have they also gone the route of going after steinway characteristics and market share ? have zero experience with the newer generation of pianos, from any of the manufacturers, except for yamaha. peace for you and yours as well for the days to share thanks.

Last edited by huaidongxi; 11/22/17 10:15 PM.
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: Davdoc] #2691404
11/22/17 11:14 PM
11/22/17 11:14 PM
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7naturals Offline OP
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Hello Davdoc,
The treble bell I saw on the Steinway was a black one. I will try to go back and get some more pictures hopefully soon of the 211 action, and the B with the black bell and put it in the gallery. I edited my post until then..
They have a lot of rebuilt Steinways there so maybe that would explain it.
Thank you for sharing

Re: New Chinese made Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691447
11/23/17 06:38 AM
11/23/17 06:38 AM
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Gentlemen,

I am grateful to have owned and performed on many wonderful vintage and modern era Baldwin, Yamaha and Mason & Hamlin grand pianos over the years, as well as having performed on some memorable and not so memorable examples of the above makes as well as vintage and new NY and Hamburg Steinways, Fazioli, Bosendorfers, Bluthners, Bechsteins, Grotrians, Chickerings, Knabes, Schimmels, Estonia, and Shigeru/Kawai. I never had the privilege of playing a Steingraeber & Sohne, Forster or Petrof. In each case, the memorable ones had good bones, and had been worked on by some wonderfully skilled concert voicing technician or rebuilder. Despite much of the tiring and needless venting that often gets posted here, the biggest secrets to wonderful Golden Age instruments were good bones, attention to detail in quality assembly, material selection and prep (hammers, plate/capo bar, belly details & soundboard crown), and especially the amount of time spent on voicing and regulation at the factories in this era - often up to 2 years.

Many of our vaunted and favorite manufacturers have evolved their designs over time and continue to do so. Some of these changes are for the good: diaphragmatic soundboards, accelerated actions, carbon fiber / composite WNG or Millenium actions, cold-pressed Weickert or Wurzen felt hammers; some are debatable: carbon fiber vs white spruce vs Sitka spruce soundboards, vacuum cast or full perimeter / cast iron plates, inner & outer rims not immediately joined to install a tension resonator, etc. and others have just been bad decisions: Teflon bushings, hot-pressed, hard & heavy hammers for producibility/durability (harsh metallic sound), etc.

In my opinion, the loss of the wonderful Baldwin Artist scale designs- and especially the introduction of a totally new Parsons design that retains NONE of the characteristics of the great vintage Baldwin grands is the true loss here and cannot be compared to whether or not one agrees with the evolution of a given manufacturer’s character over time. Why couldn’t Gibson and Parsons just manufacture an updated SF-10 or SD-10 design? Thanks to Dr. Laul, Estonias are wonderful instruments now. Thanks to Yamaha’s purchase of Bosendorfer, the CFX and CX series are beautiful instruments now. And thanks to the Burgetts and Bruce Clark, we still have Mason & Hamlin with a truly world-class WNG action (thanks be to God NOT the pre-Burgett sluggish wooden action!) that despite what my dear friend Karl declares from every mountain top, is still built in the spirit of the Richard Gertz designs, and as one would expect of a world class manufacturer - key features of Golden Age belly and scale designs are still being researched, prototyped and evaluated. So William Truitt - you are so right in your description! I also know this, because I’ve had the privilege of ENJOYABLY discussing, playing and evaluating new Masons for the past few years now with Bruce Clark and their entire final voicing and quality team... Don’t we wish we could still do that with Baldwin via a Frank Emerson or Del Fandrich? We can at least do it via Cunningham Piano and Charles Walther! Instead we have a Baldwin stencil piano, no matter how great Gibson and Parsons make it.

Conversely, the new M&H instruments continue to improve and respect their history and DNA. I’m proud to own one and developed a close working relationship to their former Chief Voicer and current consultant Boaz Kirschenbaum. With each successive visit, my new BB with WNG action matures and produces so many wonderful new tonal shadings. I truly look forward to playing it each evening. Doesn’t that count for something? And so does my older Yamaha C3 with WNG and Abel Natural Hammers... more like a new C3x due to the work of a truly great tech and application of hammer felt material improvements that emulate the past. Just my (more than) two cents!

Have a blessed Thanksgiving one and all!


Jason Solomonides
Mason & Hamlin 7' BB 93623
Yamaha 6'1" C3 (w/WNG) D3010008
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Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691450
11/23/17 06:55 AM
11/23/17 06:55 AM
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New Hampshire
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The bell choice is a bit of an odd one, in that Parsons (or whomever in China built the piano) did not reproduce the so called Cupola plate construction of Steinway. My understanding is that the bell was put in place by Steinway way back when to compensate for the casting on the hitch pin plate side being too thin and "lossy" of energy. That begs the question, "If the plate is too thin there, why not modify it and make the casting thicker?" To make matters worse, the bell replaces what preceded it in the B, which was a very substantial beam that ran from the curved side to the belly rail. That beam also served to stiffen the belly rail, which has the structural disadvantage of being a cantilever and not being as massive as some other top grade pianos. To make matters worse still, the removal of the beam leaves the belly rail fully unsupported by a beam for a length of almost 3 feet. (I am disregarding that silly thin strip that Steinway runs from the top of the belly rail to the edge of the rim). I guess calling it The Bell makes up for all that bad design.

Due to Steinway's God-like status, other makers imitate this "feature". Of course, when one looks at the pictures of the plate casting of the BP-211, one sees that the casting is quite substantial in that same treble region, which obviates the need for the bell in the first place. So why not put the beam back in the BP-211 to adequately support the belly rail in the treble, and run a nosebolt up through the soundboard and secure it to the plate to further stiffen it?

When I rebuild Steinway grands, I paint the bell a very nice color of gold, because of the profound effect it has on the tone. :-)

One of the things I found notable in the later Baldwins (the ones that Harold Conklin designed, the SF-10 and the SD-10) was that the treble has greater sustain and volume than the Steinway, which makes the treble of the Baldwin more of an equal partner to the rest of the instrument. It also has a beam in that area of the piano.

It seems to me that marketing is now fully in charge of designing pianos. Sigh....


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691460
11/23/17 09:11 AM
11/23/17 09:11 AM
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violarules Offline
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I have wondered lately what it would take to have an "angel" buy Baldwin from Gibson and resurrect the old designs, possibly even with some improvements. Not exactly what the Burgetts have done with Mason & Hamlin, but along those lines. They could limit production but tout American designs and American production. Would there be a market for such a piano? I would think that would be more appealing than the Chinese-made Baldwins, as good as they might be for the price-point. I believe the Baldwin legacy deserves a chance at such a resurrection.

Last edited by violarules; 11/23/17 09:12 AM.
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691484
11/23/17 11:24 AM
11/23/17 11:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,904
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Seattle, WA USA
For me, what is sad about the contemporary piano industry is the death of the impulses for innovation that a careful student of piano scale history can see trying to come into existence in the USA during the twentieth century. The investigations started by Joseph Hoffman, (Great 20th century Pianist and Engineer by schooling), working with Steinway that led to the Accelerated Action have not been followed to their logical conclusion.

The proper understanding of proportion and architecture of a pianos scale, and even more importantly using a more sophisticated understanding of the tone regulation process to guide the design and manufacturing methods employed, would lead to pianos with more dynamic range and color that also were far more durable.

The more German scale style of wide and heavy pianos that has swept the industry in Japan, Korea, China and everywhere else is killing tone.

Will Truitt, the first Steinway A's had no treble beam or bell.

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 11/23/17 11:26 AM. Reason: finish uncompleted sentence.

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2691496
11/23/17 12:02 PM
11/23/17 12:02 PM
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violarules Offline
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
For me, what is sad about the contemporary piano industry is the death of the impulses for innovation that a careful student of piano scale history can see trying to come into existence in the USA during the twentieth century. The investigations started by Joseph Hoffman, (Great 20th century Pianist and Engineer by schooling), working with Steinway that led to the Accelerated Action have not been followed to their logical conclusion.

The proper understanding of proportion and architecture of a pianos scale, and even more importantly using a more sophisticated understanding of the tone regulation process to guide the design and manufacturing methods employed, would lead to pianos with more dynamic range and color that also were far more durable.

The more German scale style of wide and heavy pianos that has swept the industry in Japan, Korea, China and everywhere else is killing tone.

Will Truitt, the first Steinway A's had no treble beam or bell.


Ed, not to get too far off topic, but I wonder if the march toward brighter, louder pianos with less variation in tonal color and nuance can be attributed to multi-track recording that began in the middle of the 20th century. To "come forward" in a mix dense with other instruments, a piano has to be voiced brighter. Nuance is not desired in such a situation, sadly. However, solo piano artists should know and appreciate the magic a wide tonal palette can afford.

Re: New Baldwin 7 foot grand [Re: 7naturals] #2691501
11/23/17 12:11 PM
11/23/17 12:11 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,941
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,941
Maryland/DC/No. VA
I received out BP-211 about two months ago. It is a wonderful piano and sounds very "Baldwinesque" - a robust, full-bodiededed bass and lower-mid range with a treble that brightens as you play up the compass.

Parsons is doing a great job. Their grands come in well regulated and well voiced.

In our showroom it is next to a Yamaha C6 and a JP Pramberger 208. The Baldwin wins....hands down!


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

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Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
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