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That's an interesting thought.
A combination of many factors... yes but that makes the whole process quite terrifying, doesn't it?

There are many very small issues that can contribute to this. Most of the time these issues can be addressed with careful regulation and voicing but in a concert instrument where the treble is competing with a much longer tenor and bass area, the condition of the strings has to be assessed. Most concert grands function at 100% when the strings are under 5 years old.

Elongation and creeping of piano wire takes about five years. The ultimate flexibility where the string moves fully to its termination points only lasts until the string starts to harden. When the strings starts to stiffen from degrees of metal fatigue, it shortens the effective speaking length so that you don't get a full fundamental within the length of decay. This is usually interpreted as a shortened sustain. Couple that with string cuts on the hammers so that the hammer can't get off the string without dampening and you have the typical complaint of a dead treble. Heavy playing and frequent tuning of concert pianos hasten this process.

When technicians tell me that they have replaced a string or two in the treble but they hear little improvement, I can tell you that an entire treble section of strings that are too stiff, will trap the bridge and also shorten the sustain. All those strings have to go to improve the situation.

Concerning the excess of down bearing contributing to short sustain, I also would mention that this can easily happen with too much humidity. Not only does the soundboard absorb so much that it increases the down bearing but the hammers do as well giving them a thumpy unattractive sound.

Other possibilities are that the strings are not seated on the bridge, the keyframe is not fitted properly, the pinning is too loose, and the keys bushings are allowing the key to move laterally so that the direct blow to the string is compromised by worn parts. These are all problems that appear on performance instruments in heavy use or that have been neglected in top level concert service. When pianos are in halls and are moved in and out of use, under lights, and stored improperly, all of these factors come into play.

I totally disagree with you on that one. I've witnessed the quality control processes at Bösendorfer and have seen many piano archives where each technician signs off on their work, it is inspected and approved, and then approved again. It isn't one person saying this one sounds the way it sounds and says it's ok. It just doesn't work that way at all. Also, there isn't a "factory line" where the pianos are made.

Have you ever toured a piano facility and witnessed what you've indicated?

Steve

It's the end result I'm talking about, not who signs what. I don't know the "best practices" of running a piano factory.

Most people acknowledge there have been times in Steinways history when the quality control could have been better. Some Bosendorfer pianos are so good they give an almost magical connection to the music... but they're not all that good.

So frequent tuning causes the problem, Sally?

I was going to have my pianos tuned before Christmas. I shall wait until next summer ;-))

When pianos are tuned multiple times a day this takes a toll. Strings just wear out faster on concert grands in service.

Greetings,


eeehhhmmm, I dunno. It is hard to compare these qualities, i.e. the strings don't last nearly as long in the practice rooms, which are tuned far less but played far more, than the concert pianos. At some point, in the institutional setting, it is more economical to restring the top end of a piano all at once rather than one or two strings at a time, every week. Following that, I have restrung, and repinned the bridges on numerous older pianos, dressed the capo, and still didn't see much improvement over where I started. While I do agree that termination is critical, I have seen too many 100 year old wires that sounded better than brand new, so it is hard for me to fully go with logic of wire deteriorating with tuning. Carbon steel has no lifetime limit if its deformation limits are not reached, so wire that remains below its limits can go forever.

What I have seen is one of my treble restringing jobs go out for a new soundboard 10 years or so afterwards. When it came back, the fifth octave's sustain and body had returned. I still believe that the sustain, tone, and power of a piano resides in the soundboard and its attending structure's, (case), responsiveness to input more than any other factor.
Regards,

So...what we are all basically saying is simply: "There is no single, simple answer to this question". Without personally seeing it and spending time with it we cannot possibly pin down the specific reason(s) for the symptom(s) in this or any other instrument. We can only guess based on our experience. There is simply not one answer.

Sally, to add slightly to your insightful comments I have also found that chucking keys (even slightly) can have a profound effect on the tone production. It's amazing but true.

Anything that is designed to move freely and is not, and anything that is designed NOT to move and now is, will have a detrimental effect on the response of the piano.

Pwg

I too find that once they start breaking on the concert grands that you need to replace the whole lot. On my main instrument here I did over 300 tunings this past year on one piano and it is played almost all day for rehearsals and concerts. My newest piano was only 7 years old when I restrung treble and of course that cured the string breakage but the pianists were also a lot happier with the tone as well.

I have also seen older home pianos with good strings, but not concert pianos in service.

Interesting explanation Sally about piano wire, but I think you are attributing some effects you see/hear to the wrong sources.

Strings can be tuned to death if the tuner is one of these fools who takes a stable piano and moves the pitch of each string they touch all over the place every time they tune. This wears the block as well. But the wire wear is from sliding over the V-bar. If the V-bar is case hardened the wire wears much faster than it does in the agraffe sections. Most Yamahas have this problem. You can use a magnifying glass to look at old wire off of a hard V-bar piano where it touched the V-bar when you remove it and you will see the flat spots worn into it. That explains the tone difference in my opinion.

I agree that over turning may result in a piano that doesn't stay in tune for concerts. My students would get a chuckle from your description of that common tuning error. i am still of the opinion that as Ed Foote said, the wear and tear from excessive playing has a huge effect on the deterioration of the strings in that section.

I would like to agree with this, though my understanding of the details follow:

On item (1), yes, in the sense that as string hardening due to work-hardening, as happens when the material is inelastically (plastically) deformed multiple times at the agraffs, capo, bridge pins during tunings, it will then become more difficult for the tension in the string alone to straighten the string over the speaking length. This may be partially solved by manually straightening the strings (sometimes called setting the strings?).

On the other hand, even as the string starts to harden, the elastic properties of steel do not change much. A vibrating string is in the elastic range and elastic properties do not change much even if work-hardened, so **if** it were possible to straighten/set the strings at the agraffs, capo, bridge pins, there should be no change in the sound, even after the metal work-hardens.

On item (2), if the string is work-hardened and the string is not straight at the terminations, I am not sure "reduced speaking length" is the right term because even the plastically bent portions at the terminations should be vibrating too, but it is true the straight portion of the string is reduced, which would degrade the sound in a way that I cannot predict.

[I have tested Paulello wire with Ed McMorrow's help. Because of its lower ultimate tensile strength, and more importantly, lower yield strength (point at which plastic deformations starts), the wire self-straightens at the terminations better]

__
Definitions:
inelastic/plastic deformation= defect motion in the metal occurring when the elastic limits is exceeded due to applied stress, and the material yields irreversibly. Defects in the metal are created making it subsequently more difficult to yield plastically.

inelastic deformation = spring like motion between the atoms in the metal. Reversible.

Regards,

For what its worth, during my visit to Steingraeber in Germany, they were using localized induction heating to harden the capo on the plate, and putting hard steel pin reinforcing in the brass agraffs. I guess, it is giving them what they are looking for.

Regards-

I experienced this issue you are talking about at our local S&S dealer about 4 y ago. I attributed it to hammers not being optimized, and the LVB holding company cutting costs as they were going up for sale, and depending on their dealers to do final voicing too much.

Anyhow, friends of mine just bought a new S&S B this year, and it sustains very good and has lots of power all over now.

Regards-

Interesting - I found a patent on induction heating of parts of piano plates to change the properties of the cast iron in such strategic locations. See "Method of heat treating piano string frames"


Paul.

That's very interesting - it sounds like they are going in the exact opposite direction of Ed McMorrow and going for a super hard capo instead of a soft one. They can't both be right, surely? My logic says what Ed is doing makes sense, but why would Steingraeber be doing this?

Point taken, so you have never been in a piano factory and don't know anything about how a piano is produced or quality control processes. But yet " some very high end pianos are bad." I think some are badly taken care of after they leave the factory too.

Yes, Steingraeber has many ideas that are quite different than Eds. They have very heavy hammers and their string terminations are as hard as possible. It shows there are many ways to skin a cat. Steingraeber is very active in getting their pianos in front of great pianists and getting feedback. Great pianists and piano technicians do not always like the same things.

We have had experiences with capo d'astro bars in newly manufactured pianos ( pianos we no longer represent) being so soft that the strings cut into them and were muted. We detensioned the strings and polished the grooves out and the pianos sounded much better but unfortunately in too short a time the grooves came back.

In discussing this with the manufacturer's primary designer and suggesting they induction harden the capo bar to improve this problem he completely agreed and said it was the correct fix which was on their list at the time for improvements.

There are many reasons for octave 6 being problematic not only in Steinways but in many pianos. Some have been covered here. There are no magic bullets. Sometimes lightening the hammers will give you more of what you want. Sometimes lightening hammers moves the piano in the wrong direction. Sometimes it is something that would be fixed with a new soundboard but if it is a design issue, the new board wont help unless redesigned. Sometimes it is just basic good work that is missing on the piano. Sometimes it is strike point. Sometimes it is poor terminations at the bridge that need to be addressed. Sometimes it is too much bearing or not enough. Sometimes it is pinning issues in the action parts. Often it is some combination. Pianos are super complex beasts. Especially in octave 6. FWIW, Steingraebers are very strong where many pianos have problems and it is not by accident.

I won't try to argue a position here, I'll simply add that Ed's preference of softer iron at the v bar termination is used with a very specific profile. That is one where significant material is removed from the v bar to a point about .5 mm. in width and steep and narrow side walls. Will the string machine itself into that profile? Of course it will. But the shape of the V does not allow it to spread out over a wider surface area, so the kind of string leakeage and noises that we so complain about do not occur. Ed claims that this configuration is quite durable and stays clean. I might add that Ed is using a very light hammer in these top sections, and the acetel copolymer duplex rests also offer good damping of the troublesome frequencies.

The capo bar shaping in many new pianos is very inconsistent and often very wide, and they sound like garbage straight out of the factory. They weren't always so good during the golden years either.

Whatever your pleasure may be, a consistent profile of the V bar is key to a good, clean tone, along with the myriad of other details that have already been mentioned.

We are all individuals here, and we have worked out methods that consistently give us the results we are seeking. We don't have to agree with one another, that's important only to the person who needs to win the argument.

That's not accurate, you're just making your own assumption there. By the way, I don't see much actual learning value in a "factory tour" unless you're given full access to the factory and workers by special arrangement. Certainly some members here have done that, and have designed pianos, and built pianos, and specified factory procedures, etc. If you have that kind of a background I'd suggest you identify your expertise in your signature.

The "dog and pony show" factory tour for a potential customer (which I think you're talking about) is more of an entertainment, IMHO. It might be very worthwhile and enjoyable entertainment, but they're not going to reveal any challenges. I think it would be something fun to do sometime.
If you've read the rest of the thread, we're tallking about some very specific aspects, and I think there has been some good productive discussion... and some contradictory ideas. That's ok. It's the nature of art sometimes.

I realize from your signature you're a Bosendorfer owner, but there's no need leap to their defense. Relax - no one is bashing the company.
Certainly.