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#2691296 - 11/22/17 03:16 PM Two very basic questions about jazz  
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pianoloverus Offline
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1. Why are so many of the chords 7ths, 9ths,11ths, etc.?

2. Why is the rhythm so often in swing 8ths(sorry if I asked this one before)?

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#2691302 - 11/22/17 03:36 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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I just want to comment about how your title combined the words 'basic' and 'jazz'.

Oh, the oxymoron.

#2691305 - 11/22/17 03:52 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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emenelton Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
1. Why are so many of the chords 7ths, 9ths,11ths, etc.?

2. Why is the rhythm so often in swing 8ths(sorry if I asked this one before)?



Thought I'd take a stab.

When you play through the circle of fifths in a jazz progression and you use:

3/7/9/13 or 7/3/13/9 instead of a more 'root' based voicing - from chord to chord only one or two voices change notes and then typically only a half or whole step each.

So you have two advantages: the chords have a nice colored warm sound and you don't have to move around so much.

#2691308 - 11/22/17 04:09 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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pianoloverus, your questions refer to one specific style or school of jazz improvisation, and directly relate to the bebop revolution and the contemporary schools that evolved from bebop.

the augmentation/diminishing of the basic triad opens up the harmonic possibilities, allows for more fluid changes and chromatic exploration between implied tone centers. (in basic harmony for example the dom. seventh can induce a modulation). the bebop pioneers in a manner of speaking multiplied modulations or quasi-modulations from the base composition. charlie parker studied early modern composers like stravinsky and debussy to see how they used chromaticism and polytonality. bill evans has an impressionist influence in his rootless voicings. re. #2, bebop evolved directly from swing, and retained its rhythmic foundations while also expanding the vocabulary.

the experts and musicologists are welcome to demolish my analysis, coming from a self taught improvisor and student of history.

#2691315 - 11/22/17 04:23 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Originally Posted by JazzyMac
I just want to comment about how your title combined the words 'basic' and 'jazz'.

Oh, the oxymoron.

No, this is not an oxymoron for a classical musician who wants to get to know jazz seriously; and there are more than two basic questions (in a more natural for jazz order):
1. Why such rhythm?
2. Why blues is involved?
3.Why such sound production ?
4.Why such chords?



Originally Posted by pianoloverus
1. Why are so many of the chords 7ths, 9ths,11ths, etc.?




1.Jazz is a product of the late 19th century, when the music of the late List, Wagner, Debussy, Satie, R. Strauss, Mahler already existed; where there was a process of emancipation of dissonance and even decay of tonality. It was not the desire of some crazy geniuses, but Zeitgeist. In the preceding to jazz genre of blues dissonant sounds were already outside of the traditions of classical harmony , as well as the blues scale itself. It is true that the harmony of early jazz was completely tonal, and was more like marches for military bands; however, the overall tone of the chords was much more dissonant, and development of harmony in jazz went very fast. Already in the late 1920s Bix Beyderbek's piano pieces sounded like a very late Debussy with an expressionistic flavor . As the son of emigrants from Germany, he was clearly familiar with modern German music for that time. Triad has become a persona non grata in jazz . Syncope, characteristic of jazz, is a dissonance in rhythm; and as such requires the support of dissonant harmony.





Last edited by Nahum; 11/22/17 04:33 PM.
#2691326 - 11/22/17 04:47 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Scale degrees of 7 and below form the lower structure of a chord which determine it's quality (major7, minor7, etc.).

The upper structures (9, 11 and 13) serve to color the basic chord sound. Jazz is characterized by complex chords using lots of extensions (9s, 11s and 13s) that chromatically richen the sound.


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#2691327 - 11/22/17 04:53 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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emenelton Offline
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for example key of C major voiced high to low - you will see many shared tones as the progression moves


ii7_V9-13_I maj9_IVmaj9 #4

a____a____a____a

e____e____d____d

c____b____b____b

f_____f____e____e

#2691459 - 11/23/17 09:05 AM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus

2. Why is the rhythm so often in swing 8ths(sorry if I asked this one before)?


Elsewise the meaning would be lost.

#2691462 - 11/23/17 09:23 AM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: DanS]  
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Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by pianoloverus

2. Why is the rhythm so often in swing 8ths(sorry if I asked this one before)?


Elsewise the meaning would be lost.


That is a more succinct version of what I was going to say, but here goes: Aren't blues and swing the two pillars of jazz? Why does pizza so often have crust?


#2691703 - Yesterday at 11:54 AM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: Nahum]  
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Israel

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
1. Why are so many of the chords 7ths, 9ths,11ths, etc.?


Cont.

Although the blues initially used 3 traditional triads I,IV and V plus the dominant seventh , the blues scale was originally modal, not tonal; which was expressed in the frequent clashes between chords and melodic pitches; for example, a minor third inside the major triad (which eventually turned into # 9), or the fourth step inside the dominant seventh chord (which eventually became dom7 / sus 4 or 7/11). Gradually, the triads were replaced by chords of major (minor) / added 6, which becam a version maj (minor) 6/9, which was associated with pentatonic mode, and was already familiar to composers of 19th century (Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Debussy). Thus, the blues established a high level of dissonance, which was transmitted to jazz; and then has already went the natural musical evolution, reminiscent of what was happening in European music ранее , but at a much faster rate. After the start of blues around 1900 -s in the 50s was appeared atonal jazz.




Last edited by Nahum; Yesterday at 11:54 AM.
#2691801 - Yesterday at 06:47 PM Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: Sir Lurksalot]  
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Originally Posted by Sir Lurksalot
Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by pianoloverus

2. Why is the rhythm so often in swing 8ths(sorry if I asked this one before)?


Elsewise the meaning would be lost.


That is a more succinct version of what I was going to say, but here goes: Aren't blues and swing the two pillars of jazz? Why does pizza so often have crust?


Actually it was meant to be a Duke reference. Maybe a bit too obtuse...

#2691838 - 6 hours ago Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: JazzyMac]  
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Originally Posted by JazzyMac
your title combined the words 'basic' and 'jazz'. Oh, the oxymoron.

I’m okay with ‘basic jazz Questions’.
It’s the ‘basic jazz Answers’ that give me a headache ... whistle


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
#2691855 - 3 hours ago Re: Two very basic questions about jazz [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Nahum Online content
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Israel
Originally Posted by pianoloverus


2. Why is the rhythm so often in swing 8ths(sorry if I asked this one before)?

Swing is really the most basic element of jazz; no swing - no jazz; or, by the words of Duke Ellington: It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing ! However, nobody fully explained it, it is extremely difficult. Try to explain to foreigner what is the New York accent of English. You can specify a number of characteristics, but it will never be complete.
Swing in jazz starts first of all with quarters - exactly as Marsalis shows on video. This is walking, and not just walking, but a specific African-American type with accent on 2 and 4, decisively different, for example, from Russian . Look at their feet ! -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLYbkgKscg4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdhLVsDAtz4 ( very long ago performed with them )


compared with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o4NxQB4tEA


Swinging eights originate from Afro-American pronunciation of English :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFlzYH-fYoM&t=41s

Listen to timing, articulation and dynamics of speech ; Satchmo speaks with a strong sense of swing, his interviewer - not.


https://soundcloud.com/jazzman1945/talking-satchmo (programmed by me comping is completely devoid of swing feel)









Last edited by Nahum; 2 hours ago.

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