Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
80 registered members (Almaviva, ambrozy, andyhuang, accordeur, 2Keys, 20 invisible), 1,746 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2691119 - 2 hours ago Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater.  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Pologuy Online content
Full Member
Pologuy  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Milwaukee, WI
Anyone deal with any honest, ethical, dealers when buying your digital keyboards, pianos, etc.

I contacted Sweetwater asking for a price on some keyboards and was told in their sales pitch that one of the reasons to buy from Sweetwater over the competition was because my purchase had "free shipping" - and stating:

“I want to make sure I can give you a quote for the correct items.”; “what's your zip code so I can calculate the shipping on my end.”

“We use your zip code to calculate how much shipping is going to cost us when we quote.”

"in order for us to know what kind of price we can get you, we need to know how much it is going to cost us, so we usually ask for an address or zip code so we can calculate.”


It is plain to see, Sweetwater conceals the shipping costs in its quoted prices – shipping is not “free”.

Sweetwater's website also states:

“Remember that if your order was shipped for free under our free shipping promo, the cost of outbound shipping will be deducted from your return credit”

“If you return your purchase, then the cost of shipping will be deducted from any refund or credit.”


Which means that the shipping is not free – it is included in the price.

As one poster stated in another forum he was upset that he was charged for shipping and called Sweetwater and spoke with management and was told - if his salesman would have given him the "free shipping", the salesman would have made that cost up in the product price quote - and Sweetwater refused to give him a refund on his shipping cost.

That is NOT "free shipping"

Sweetwater conceals the price of shipping in their price quotes and states that shipping is "free"

I contacted Sweetwater and spoke with both upper-management and the owner/president - and was basically told too bad.

Sweetwater makes a lot of money concealing the shipping costs in their price quotes - all the while telling the consumer that they are getting "free shipping"

Anyone deal with any honest, ethical, dealers that don't have to lie to you in order to try to convince you that they are "saving" you money?


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP11(SE), or Kawai VPC1(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

#2691121 - 2 hours ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,544
MacMacMac Offline
5000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,544
North Carolina
Why the rant?
Why are you surprised?

Nothing is free.
Nothing.
Nothing.
Nothing.
Not ever.

#2691122 - 2 hours ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: MacMacMac]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Pologuy Online content
Full Member
Pologuy  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Milwaukee, WI
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Why the rant?
Why are you surprised?

Nothing is free.
Nothing.
Nothing.
Nothing.
Not ever.


Oh, I agree! smile

Why do some dealers (a minority - not all of them are "bad") think that they can just lie to you in order to try to convince you to purchase your merchandise from them instead of the competition?

All this does is force other retailers (if they want to stay in business) to "play the game" and lie also.

It sadly either forces the honest, ethical dealers to make a choice - either join the dishonest dealers and survive - or go out of business.

It's nice to find honest, ethical dealers out there to support - another reason to support your local dealers!


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP11(SE), or Kawai VPC1(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
#2691124 - 2 hours ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,158
TheodorN Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,158
Sweden
I agree with MacMacMac, sort of. Though I'd also like to know what kind of shipping policy the other big names have, like Kraft Music, or Musician's Friend, if we're talking about the United States.

It's obviously very misleading, when Sweetwater says they decide the offering price from how far they have to ship the instrument. Then the transport is hardly free. It would be more honest to have a fixed price, and free shipping costs for states within a certain range from their warehouse(s).

I'm pretty sure, that if other dealers offer free shipping, they just raise the final price, to cover potential shipping costs. That way, the customers living in the city where the dealer has a warehouse, pay the shipping costs for the customers living further away. As MacMacMac puts it, nothing is free. It's just a question of who pays the bill.

About outbound shipping, maybe that's more understandable. If both inbound and outbound shipping were free, more customers would just order a piano, see how they like it, and just send it back if they don't.

May I ask, are there no local dealers near you, or are they too expensive? I would prefer to order from some store close by, and not have to worry about shipping costs. Besides, it's better to get more personal service, when you can just drop in and discuss the matter with a salesman, if something goes wrong.

Last edited by TheodorN; 2 hours ago.

My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Production Grand 2 Gold, Estate Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2691125 - 2 hours ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 388
newer player Online content
Full Member
newer player  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 388
I've seen that free shipping but return fees from a few online music retailers. It bothered too and I pulled gear from the "shopping cart."

#2691127 - 2 hours ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Pologuy Online content
Full Member
Pologuy  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Milwaukee, WI
Originally Posted by TheodorN
About outbound shipping, maybe that's more understandable. If both inbound and outbound shipping were free, more customers would just order a piano, see how they like it, and just send it back if they don't.


I think you misunderstood smile

According to the Sweetwater website - if you return an item to Sweetwater - they deduct the amount it cost them to ship you the item originally from any refund - you are responsible for paying return shipping on your own.

So, they are charging you for something they told you was free in order to try to convince you to purchase from them.

Like you said - this is just another reason to patronize your local dealer.


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP11(SE), or Kawai VPC1(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
#2691128 - 1 hour ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3
jarobi Online content
Junior Member
jarobi  Online Content
Junior Member

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3
I assume you were trying to negotiate a better price than what is listed on Sweetwater's site, so obviously they need to know how much shipping will cost to quote you a price. Some of the heavier keyboards like the MP11 state in their description that "free" shipping isn't included. Does their site claim "free shipping" on everything? I guess maybe a better way to put it would be "shipping included" on products where you don't pay shipping. I've never purchased anything from Sweetwater, so I have no idea about their business practices but this doesn't seem either dishonest or unethical to me. YMMV

#2691130 - 1 hour ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: jarobi]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Pologuy Online content
Full Member
Pologuy  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Milwaukee, WI
Originally Posted by jarobi
I assume you were trying to negotiate a better price than what is listed on Sweetwater's site, so obviously they need to know how much shipping will cost to quote you a price. Some of the heavier keyboards like the MP11 state in their description that "free" shipping isn't included. Does their site claim "free shipping" on everything? I guess maybe a better way to put it would be "shipping included" on products where you don't pay shipping. I've never purchased anything from Sweetwater, so I have no idea about their business practices but this doesn't seem either dishonest or unethical to me. YMMV


Falsely telling someone that one reason to purchase from them is because they are giving you "free shipping" on your order in order to try to convince you to buy the product from them instead of one of their competitors - when, in fact, the shipping cost is not free and is concealed in their quoted price they give you - is the very definition of dishonest and unethical.

And then for those that find out, after the fact, that if they return the item their "free shipping" shipping cost would be deducted from any refund amount - meaning that their "free shipping" was not free - just adds insult to injury.

This is the very definition of dishonest and unethical - and false, deceptive, and misleading advertising.


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP11(SE), or Kawai VPC1(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
#2691132 - 1 hour ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 789
Pete14 Online content
500 Post Club Member
Pete14  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 789
Do you expect honesty from a car dealer?
It’s no different for anyone out there trying to sell you something.

#2691133 - 1 hour ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,409
dmd Offline
3000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,409
Pennsylvania
Do you really think a business is going to ship you something and let you return it to them and all that shipping cost to and from you .... is going to be covered by them ?

Are you kidding ?

So they are hiding the cost of shipping in their sales price .... so what ?

It still costs you what it costs. You decide if you want it at that cost. That is as fair as it gets.

Now .... if you later decide you do not want the item .... you pay the shipping back. That is also fair.

You just thought you were in la-la land and now you just woke up .... disillusioned.

Now you know the truth.


Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2691134 - 1 hour ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Pologuy Online content
Full Member
Pologuy  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Milwaukee, WI
No... re-read the posts.

I don't think you should have to play read between the line games when purchasing a keyboard - there is enough to think about like specs, warranty, etc. - without having to worry whether you are being told the truth by the salesperson - no matter what it is.

If you are told you are getting free shipping - you should be getting FREE shipping.

How can anyone even begin to argue with that?

The reason they tell you that they are giving you free shipping is because they want to make themselves look better than their competitors - which puts their competitors at a competitive disadvantage - all because of a lie.

That is the very definition of false, deceptive, and misleading advertising.



Looking to purchase: Kawai MP11(SE), or Kawai VPC1(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
#2691135 - 57 minutes ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,409
dmd Offline
3000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,409
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by Pologuy
No... re-read the posts.

I don't think you should have to play read between the line games when purchasing a keyboard - there is enough to think about like specs, warranty, etc. - without having to worry whether you are being told the truth by the salesperson - no matter what it is.

If you are told you are getting free shipping - you should be getting FREE shipping.

How can anyone even begin to argue with that?

The reason they tell you that they are giving you free shipping is because they want to make themselves look better than their competitors - which puts their competitors at a competitive disadvantage - all because of a lie.

That is the very definition of false, deceptive, and misleading advertising.



I don't get it.

When I calculate the cost of a product being shipped to me, I include the cost of shipping with it.

Then I decide if that total cost (product + shipping) is better than what I can get it for somewhere else.

It doesn't matter to me if the shipping is 50$ and the product is $100 for a total of $150 or if the shipping is free and the product costs $150.

The total cost of the product to my door is $150.

If the salesman tells me I am getting free shipping I hardly even notice.

It matters not to me what the shipping cost is. All that matters is the total cost for me to get the product to my door.

So, personally ... I am not offended if the salesman says I am getting free shipping .... It is just a game that is played in the business world.


Cars are sold with "deals" where you put no money down and zero interest for 5 years on a 20,000 dollar loan.

Do you really think you are getting that money and not paying any interest on it ?

Of course you are not. They just jack up the price of the car to cover the interest. It is a game.


Furniture companies sell furniture with No payments and nothing down for a year and zero interest after that. Are you kidding me. No interest ?

They jack up the price to cover the interest. It is a game.

You have to judge things on what it costs you to your door compared to a competitor.

Forget about which bucket it goes into .... shipping, interest, down payment, etc .... . It does not matter.

All that matters is the final cost to you.


Are they being a bit deceptive ? Not to me they aren't because I know the game.

Now you do too.


Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2691137 - 48 minutes ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Pologuy]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,323
Kawai James Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,323
Hamamatsu, Japan
Sweetwater is an excellent retailer with a very strong reputation.

With the greatest respect, I think the topic you have raised is a storm in a teacup.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2691139 - 40 minutes ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: Kawai James]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,409
dmd Offline
3000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,409
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Sweetwater is an excellent retailer with a very strong reputation.

With the greatest respect, I think the topic you have raised is a storm in a teacup.

Kind regards,
James
x



I totally agree. I have worked with them on numerous occasions and found them to be very professional and fair.


Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2691140 - 35 minutes ago Re: Any honest, ethical, dealers out there - NOT Sweetwater. [Re: dmd]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Pologuy Online content
Full Member
Pologuy  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 247
Milwaukee, WI
Originally Posted by dmd
I don't get it.

When I calculate the cost of a product being shipped to me, I include the cost of shipping with it.

Then I decide if that total cost (product + shipping) is better than what I can get it for somewhere else.

It doesn't matter to me if the shipping is 50$ and the product is $100 for a total of $150 or if the shipping is free and the product costs $150.

The total cost of the product to my door is $150.

If the salesman tells me I am getting free shipping I hardly even notice.

It matters not to me what the shipping cost is. All that matters is the total cost for me to get the product to my door.

So, personally ... I am not offended if the salesman says I am getting free shipping .... It is just a game that is played in the business world.


Cars are sold with "deals" where you put no money down and zero interest for 5 years on a 20,000 dollar loan.

Do you really think you are getting that money and not paying any interest on it ?

Of course you are not. They just jack up the price of the car to cover the interest. It is a game.


Furniture companies sell furniture with No payments and nothing down for a year and zero interest after that. Are you kidding me. No interest ?

They jack up the price to cover the interest. It is a game.

You have to judge things on what it costs you to your door compared to a competitor.

Forget about which bucket it goes into .... shipping, interest, down payment, etc .... . It does not matter.

All that matters is the final cost to you.


Are they being a bit deceptive ? Not to me they aren't because I know the game.

Now you do too.




If you don't mind being told that you are getting "free shipping" even though that is not true - and that doesn't bother you - that is up to you.

If you don't care if you are being lied to - that is all on you.

However, you are in the VAST minority.

And the 'everyone else does it" excuse (It is just a game that is played in the business world) - stopped working for most of us in the 5th grade.

And no, "not everyone else does it" - there are many decent, honest, ethical people who own businesses out there - that don't lie to their customers just to get them to buy something from them.

And the fact that businesses like Sweetwater make you think that "everyone else does it" - proves my point - they are putting other honest, ethical competitors at a competitive disadvantage.

And I am glad that you "know the game" - many people are not as smart and worldly as you - and they don't "know the game".

There are reasons we have consumer protection laws - they are to "protect the gullible as well as the shrewd" and the "least sophisticated consumers" among us.


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP11(SE), or Kawai VPC1(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Experience with Redbird, Concertpianos, and “Maestro”?
by Duke of Dunning. 11/21/17 06:26 PM
Fujan tuning lever lost
by Toni Goldener. 11/21/17 03:16 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,876
Posts2,673,406
Members89,168
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0