Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Difference between CA98 and NV10, will it matter to me?

So with the introduction of the new higher end Kawai DP's, I'm finding that I'm very interested in upgrading from my ES110 to something better. As an adult beginner (about 2 years in) I'm certainly finding the limits of my current DP (though I still quite like it) and had decided if I stuck with piano for two years I'd upgrade, the rationale being that I've stuck with it and continue to love it, so I want to move past an acceptable beginner DP.

So here's my question, as an inexperienced pianist, I'm worried I'm not going to appreciate the difference right now between the hybird and non hybrid actions. So when these DP's arrive in the shop to try out, what am I looking for to help me decide? What's going to be the difference between they GFII and the hybrid action and why would I choose one versus the other assuming this will probably be my primary instrument for a long time? Obviously there's a cost difference, is it going to make a difference to me over the next ten years having one action versus the other? My biggest concern is I'm not experienced enough to properly understand the difference, but in 5 years, maybe I will and I don't want to regret my choice.

To not have regrets you should buy the best piano you can afford with your budget.
Try them, if you will find the ca98 worst or equal to novus, buy the novus if you can.
If you will find you like more the ca98, try the novus for a longer time to be sure it’s not linked to be used to a “digital” action like ES110.

It's a valid concern and I shared the exact same concern a while ago. What helped me was just going to Piano stores and playing the real acoustic pianos (even 7' or 9' ones). Once you have done that for 3-4 hours (spread it out over multiple stores/visits if you have that choice), I suspect you will be able to differentiate between hybrid and non hybrid actions in NV10 and CA98. Based on your findings, you can then decide whether it is worth it to you to move to NV10. The more time you will spend with the 'real acoustic actions' - the more it will be harder for you to use the non hybrid action .

Osho

Great observations, thank you. I should note, I do spend time on acoustic grands, every week at my teachers (on a Steinway M) and at a local piano meetup (we switch every week, but everyone in the group besides me has an acoustic grand) so I do at least know what it feels like from that end.

This may be a dumb question, but are most piano stores amenable to someone coming in and playing for 2-3 hours?

If you are going to spend upwards of $8,000 - they better be!

As Osho, mentioned, spread out your visits, you can just go 30 minutes at a time or so.

I highly recommend this approach as well, as opposed to trying to cram in a half-day session (even if your piano shop doesn't mind, which a lot of them would be perfectly fine with). You'll get fatigued, your thoughts and comparisons will get all jumbled, and you won't have time to reflect. Instead, if you go once a week over the course of a month or so, you'll have a lot time time to digest what you've experienced, think about what you may have missed, strategize on which instruments you want to focus on next, etc. It will be a more enjoyable and productive experience overall, and you'll be able to better retain and reinforce (or correct) what you've learned.

I also have to throw in that for a relative beginner, it's a bit hard to believe you're really running up against any real limits of an instrument like the ES110. Sure, maybe you are, but chances are you're just noticing differences rather than limitations (e.g., you won't get significantly better or realistic tone/behavior moving from an ES110 to a higher end model, but you'll get different samples, and a better speaker setup). That's not to say you can't have a preference or don't deserve to have a higher end DP. But even entry level DPs today have the chops to mostly keep up with more advanced players and pros (who can absolutely notice and be affected by such limitations).

I've heard similar lines from a lot of salesmen!

Eheh true!
I was just trying to say that sometimes high end stuff feels “strange”, especially to beginners used to low end things.
Think about hi-fi headphones vs boomy ones like Beat. You start missing the bass and then after some use you enjoy the hi-fi

Do you have specific limitations that require a digital?

Keep in mind that the (likely) price of a 'hybrid' like the novus will get you a rather decent used acoustic grand with a bit of shopping.



Unless you're likely to become a virtuoso professional in that time, probably not in my opinion. And you may well find that the feel of the brand new millennium iii action in the novus is as different to your teacher's Steinway (which could be in any condition for all I know) as the grand feel 2 in the ca98 is.

Consider also that huge numbers of decent pianists grew up learning mostly on uprights of varying ages and quality.

That said, if you've got £8-10k burning a hole in your pocket then whyever not?

I know what you were saying but I couldn't resist taking your quote out of context!

You've pretty much correctly guessed the limitations mostly aren't in terms of musical technique, but more design limitations. The keyboard action is exceptionally loud on the rebound, so much so it annoys my wife and I've had to tuck it away downstairs. I've played with the CA97 and its keys are significantly quieter. The on board speakers and amplification are quite weak, and I've already got enough "junk" attached to it to make it unsightly. Now that I can actually play with some modicum of competence, I want a piano in the living room again so we can enjoy it as a family, so I don't want to have to have external speakers and possibly a computer for better sound sitting on it (the new sound engine in the higher end DP's is appealing.) To temper my risk of offending Kawai James, who is awesome, I will just say that the controls leave a lot to be desired. The headphone output is "OK" but not great, and the headphone amps in the higher end DP's make a huge difference. The keyboard, aside from the rebound thump, makes a lot of extra "spring" type noise, especially on certain keys, which makes it annoying to play without headphones.

There are two technique issues I have noticed. As I mentioned, I do play acoustics and I have played with the CA97. First is the action on the ES110 is very light, and this makes it a really big adjustment to play on the Steinway in my teachers studio. Even with the "touch" setting on heavy it's a huge adjustment to go and play on his grand. The CA97 feels more similar to grands I've played in terms of the force required to get sound out of the keys. The other issues is the feeling of the keys, they are definitely plastic, even with the texturing, and the way my fingers "come off" the keys is distinctly different than grands I've played, especially on the black keys and it impacts my ability to play on acoustic grands. Again, my experience playing with the CA97 is more in line with an acoustic grand, I guess due to the "ivory feel" and wood keys?

All that said, I still plan to keep the ES110 even after buying a new DP, as it's nice to have in my office to record and have a decent hammer action midi controller.



- Space is an issue. The footprint on the DP's is much better, even the NV10 with its slightly bigger footprint is still a nice fit.
- I need a headphone jack, as I often practice late a night and don't want to wake the family. I've not seen a grand with the "quiet" system even close to price competitive (NV10 speculated to be around $6000 USD, the CA98 $3800?)
- We live in the "pacific north wet". It's not the best environment to keep a piano in tune with the humidity, and I like the idea of not having to worry about getting a tune every 3 months (all the folks in my piano meet up have to do this, and I actually notice now when my teachers piano is out of tune.) We're also on an island, so getting technicians to come out is challenging.
- We already have a crappy no name 80-year old full size upright acoustic, I don't relish having to move another piano (again, island complications)

I think your last post shows that you already do have a good idea of what to look for.

Nevertheless, some thoughts of mine:
Firstly, if action noise is such an issue as you describe, the CA98 might possibly even be a better choice for you than the NV10. We currently do not know how loud the Millennium III action in the NV10 actually will be, but Grand Feel II is the quietest real-wood DP action I have encountered yet. While in comparison, the actions of the various Yamaha AvantGrands I've tried (N3X, N1, NU1) are significantly louder and produce a rather clunky sound. Same deal for acoustic grands played with the "silent" system... it's actually not silent at all. Keys bottoming out and wooden hammer shanks hitting a stop rail instead of strings do produce sound after all; just the less pleasant kind, and it's not masked by the more beautiful sound of the strings.
In any case, you will easily be able to judge these actions in regard to their inherent noise, no need to worry about it now.

Secondly, since you have regular access to acoustic grands, you DO have significant experience and varied points of reference. So trust your gut feeling when you try the pianos. I believe that it makes more sense to buy the piano of which you prefer the feel, instead of the one other people think may be more suitable for you in 5-10 years time. If you end up liking the feel of the NV10 better, you will have to decide if the feel difference is worth the price difference to you.

Thirdly, what you can look out for when you try out these pianos:
The situation is quite unique for comparison since CA98 and NV10 share the same sound engine. But apart from the construction differences of the actions, there are differences in the sensor system (3-sensor in Grand Feel II vs. optical sensors in Millennium III) and the real damper mechanism in the NV10.
So you can specifically look out for differences in feel and sound response to playing pianissimo and trills, as well as some fast scales, both with damper pedal up and down.
The different sensor systems may theoretically lead to very subtle differences in sound response and achievable nuances; but in practice these differences will probably be negligible compared to the more obvious differences in response due to the different mechanics, and thus weighting, of the actions. And regardless of playing level, it's rather questionable whether anyone would be able to judge such fine subtleties of sensor system output in a potentially noisy store environment. However, the difference in feel between damper pedal up and down on the Novus will be very easy to spot, even with the piano turned off.

Lastly, in regard to key texture, you will also be able to judge that yourself, as your last post has already proven; and you should too, since preference in that regard is very personal.

If you are still unsure after trying out the pianos, ask your teacher if he is willing to come with you on another visit to the store. After all, he should be the best point of authority for you, since he is the one who is supposed to teach you good technique and tone production, and does so on a Steinway grand. If he can actually spot a difference of significance, he can tell you what to look for right there and then.

Ok I've heard enough about the es110 kawai little issues. I have mine for six months, studying w a master who has a concert grand. I have practiced average of 4- 6 hours every day 7 days a week and yes, I see and hear all the little issues on this forum. None of which prevents a beginner student or even a two year student from learning piano. My teacher loves it and yeah keys bounce a little but it feels just like another friends upright. The piano is like 729 dollars!. And I can't stop playing it. If you just want to upgrade, fine , but remember an upgraded piano will perhaps earn a very small sign of improvement. Confidence is gained by doing and there is no substitute for hard work. I am a seasoned professional guitarist for 60 years and remember how often I wanted to buy this or that in hopes that I would be better. Nada. Best advice I've heard is to buy the best piano w the best budget you have to offer. Oh that goes for teachers also. People cringe when I tell them I pay a $100 an hour for lessons but as a guitarist I've learned how true that is.
I hear you about the aesthetics and look , as my wife mentions it daily. One day if the Master Musician allows it I will upgrade to an a more pleasing look as mentioned in this forum but I have no expectations of any other piano improving my playing much.

What limits are you finding?
Have you thought about upgrading to the ES8?


The "better" action won't make much difference to your technique, but if you find it makes you enjoy playing it more, it could be worth it. Your regret might be in the form of Gear Acquisition Syndrome - that you bought the cheaper model and want to upgrade to something newer and more expensive, or it could be from spending a huge and excessive amount of money on an instrument that has depreciated by 50%, money you could have spent on lessons, software pianos, audio equipment, booze, or the latest model in 5 years' time.

Personally I have never forgiven myself for spending over £200 on a Christmas jumper from Bicester Village (on my first and only visit) one year. What a huge waste of money that was. I don't even like wearing it much. Other purchases for less extortionate amounts I have regretted less. I also gain great pleasure from buying things cheaply, even if I could afford better, if it does the job. Like this lunch time I got a New York style pastrami and gouda sandwich, an Innocent tropical fruits protein smoothie, and a fresh fruit and yoghurt pot from Morrison's on a lunch-time deal for £3. Could I have afforded more, and got something nicer? Yes. But spending a lot less made me happier. I always walk round Wilko's with a huge smile on my face because everything's so cheap. Yes a lot of things they have are tat, but a lot are just as good as the more expensive alternatives for my purposes. Decide what makes you happy. If you already had a CA98, and someone gave you £5000, is an upgrade to the Novus the best possible way you could think of spending it?

+1 Nice way to think about it!

You will notice a fair difference from an ES110 to a CA98. Tone, tactile feedback, keyboard. Features like USB, the Technician, etc. Save your money. Then, in a bit, when the CA98 has served its purpose, get the NV11, or whatever they call it then. The CA9x series is very stable now. Enjoy it. The Novus line will be here for a long time. Plus, the CA98 has fewer parts to its action and will not need service for some time to regulate it.