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In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 #2690228
11/17/17 11:53 AM
11/17/17 11:53 AM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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Hello there!

I’m very, very new here on the forum. And I’m also fairly new to playing the piano. Currently I rock a Casio CTK4400, to guide me through my first baby steps in learning how to play. But to me this keyboard doesn’t sound “right.” It sounds too “generated.” Not like pianos I used to hear in my childhood and teenager years.

Now, I have done a lot of reasearch and comparing between the big three companies: Roland, Yamaha and Kawai.
The sound of the Roland straight up doesn’t appeal to me. Now the Yamahas do sound nice, but I read that the action on the Kawais is considered to be better. And yes, I have to admit, after hearing some of them: very, very beautiful.

So I have my eyes on the ES8 and the CN37. I’m aware of the fact that one is portable. That “feature” isn’t really important to me. The price is almost the same where I live. What I’m really concerned is that the ES8 seems to have the better sound generation system in it. And I am very pro sound. But is the difference between them enough to justify that I would have to buy the stand and pedals in addition to the ES8 itself? I can hear slight differences in the YouTube samples, but those might also be due to compression.

I want to buy something on which I can learn, but also enjoy the instrument for many years to come.

So I’m looking to all those of you with many months, years or even decades of playing experience for advice.


Many thanks in advance,
A Lone Wolf.

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Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690230
11/17/17 12:16 PM
11/17/17 12:16 PM
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dmd Offline
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I have the ES8 and feel it is a very fine instrument.

The CN37 seems to be a tad bit more appropriate for home use.

It looks more like something you would have in your living room as a piece of furniture.

If you can listen to both of them that would be best.

If not, well .... then the CN37 appears to be a bit higher end than the ES8 ... for whatever reason.

I am sure either would be fine for many years.

Good Luck


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690254
11/17/17 02:16 PM
11/17/17 02:16 PM
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If you can swing the price and don’t care that it’s not portable, I’d pick the 37. More solid stand and pedals, more amplifier power, probably better speaker enclosure, better control interface, etc.

Am pretty sure the samples are the same for either model.


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Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690256
11/17/17 02:33 PM
11/17/17 02:33 PM
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The samples aren't the same; the ES8 has the better ones spec. wise, and it may be noticeable to you even though it has a more compact speaker system.
Whether it actually sounds better or not is something you'll have to ascertain in a shop, which isn't all that easy given that the showroom will be considerably larger than the room where you are likely to place it after purchase . . . . .
I would have the CN37 because I like it and nearly bought one a couple o' years back. I tried it at the same time as an ES7 in the shop, and it was better in every way. The pedals and keyboard felt lovely.
And have you seen the size o' that music stand?

Last edited by peterws; 11/17/17 02:38 PM.

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Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: peterws] #2690269
11/17/17 03:58 PM
11/17/17 03:58 PM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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Thanks guys for the feedback. As far as my playing is concerned, I'm using headphones. Currently Audio Technica M50x. Technically speaking I'm not allowed to make music in my apartment. Noise restrictions blah blah blah...


I have read that the internal amp and the speakers in the ES8 seem a tad on the lower side. But yeah, in terms of samples it has an advantage.
On the other hand the CN37 comes complete with pedals and everything...
I'm so torn apart between those two. 🙁

Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690376
11/18/17 05:28 AM
11/18/17 05:28 AM
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Hello, Piano-World, long time lurker here.*chuckles*
Thank you for asking this question, wolflone249.

ES8 vs CN37 is the exact conundrum I arrived at, after weeding out many a competitor over the last few months, while considering what my very first piano is going to be:

Acoustics of any kind fell flat because of €, space, and the fact that I already play the alto-flute. Unleashing yet another acoustic instrument on my neighbors would probably be unwise .... and cruel. laugh

I had the chance to dabble around (sorry, can't play yet) on a Yamaha Clavinova (240) with the GH3 action owned my the mother of a friend (so I had the luxury of a quiet environment and could take my time). While I can't speak for the sound b/c it was an old model i immediately disliked the action. She also has an acoustic and, by comparison, the Yamaha action felt awkwardly "binary". Tough to put into words but once you overcome the initial inertia, the key just plummets down to the bottom w/o any further resistance.

Rolands sound too clinical and cold for my taste.

That leaves Kawai. Beautiful, warm sound in whatever video I watched. Sadly, CA series is out of my budget (still need to reserve funds for lessons). I started looking at
CN-37
CA-17/48
ES-8

Considering that I do plan on using VSTs in addition to the internal voice, the absence of a line in on the 17/48 is a rather effective deterrent to a purchase. Also, the 48 got a downgrade in the sound department from HI-XL to PHI, and an overpriced apple gadget is mandatory to make use of the Virtual Technician making me wonder what the point of this product is compared to a CN-37.

So, that was my journey to your / our problem we face right now. ES-8 vs CN-37.

Differences in a nutshell:
CN-37 vs ES-8
PHI vs HI-XL (+ SK-5 voice)
stationary vs portable
350 voices vs 34
4 speakers vs 2 speakers
40W vs 30W amplification (whatever that means in practice, highly dependent on speaker sensitivity)
1630€ vs 1719€ (for fairness I included the stand and GF pedal unit in the ES8s price)

From the videos, it seems to me that the CN-37 is a bit more stable than the ES-8. If you look at the american ES-8 video, it does tend to swing to the sides when played.

I have to say: Kawai certainly did NOT make this decision easy for the customer. :X
When I find time, I will head to a local music store and try both, a piano with HI-XL and a piano with PHI, in order to figure out if there is a difference I can hear.

Edit:
Currently I am leaning towards a white CN-37 though, because in the end, both sound technologies cannot hold a candle to unlooped VSTs like Garritan or modeled pianos like Pianoteq. It's a bit cheaper, has a lot more versatility in voices and recording capabilities and (subjective) looks a lot nicer. Bummer about the SK-5 though. Quite like it.


Quote
And I am very pro sound.

Just a FYI: Both pianos use sample technology. If your ears are sensitive to that, you will be able to hear the decay loops. Check out the DPBSD thread, there are MP3s of the CN-35 and MP3s that compare HI, PHI and UPHI (predecessor to HI-XL) in there you can listen to.
I also tried the pianoteq-demo (w/o a midi controller I could only klick keys and feed it a few .mid files) and it sounds vastly different.

Last edited by Granyala; 11/18/17 05:40 AM.

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Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: Granyala] #2690381
11/18/17 06:33 AM
11/18/17 06:33 AM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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Thank you for your detailed response. 👍🏻

Well, my ears can be very sensitive. But being a little short on change for an acoustic piano, I think I have to look over those little imperfections. It is, after all, digital.

And I did listen to the MP3s that you suggested; I hear what you mean. But... I don’t know... it kind of takes away the atmosphere if I have to hook a Keyboard controller like the VPC1 to a computer, to get an even closer to authentic sound.
I listenend to some of the sample MP3s of their Steinways. Yes, it does sound different. Is it worth the hassle? I need at least a decent sound interface for my computer. And they’re not really cheap to come by.

The sound examples on the Kawai website do sound quite lovely. I do find the ES8 ones a little bit - hm - let’s say crisper for a lack of words.
But then again... sturdiness and overall looks... decisions, decisions.


Last edited by wolflone249; 11/18/17 06:58 AM.
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690391
11/18/17 07:45 AM
11/18/17 07:45 AM
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Obviously I don't have practical experience, yet, but to me hooking up PTQ seems to be pretty straight forward.
USB cable or Blutooth MIDI to computer -> start Pianoteq -> play.
If you don't route it back, you simply plug your headphones into the computer instead of the digital piano.
If you do, you need a second audio cable from PC -> DP (analog audio).

Should pretty much be a "set up once and forget about the settings" thing.

Ofc I don't know how "hassle free" the whole thing would be in practice, if you start thinking about latency and reliability. That's why I would not feel comfortable buying sth. like the VPC1 and having to rely in VSTs to work.

As for the audio interface, having a Titanium HD (audiophile grade soundcard) that is taken care of and they stand next to each other, so exploring pianoteq in the future is a no-brainer to me. It it doesn't work however, no biggie.

This is why I wanted both: nice onboard sounds AND the connectivity to set up VSTs. After all, sometimes you want to practice quickly and effortlessly, nothing beats just having to press "ON" and start playing. Well, not having to press "ON" would but then we'd be talking about acoustics again. laugh

Personally, I can not hear any difference in videos / samples between CN-37 and ES-8. But then again, you cannot possible judge sth like that from non lossless compressed media. That's why I plan a trip to the store with my Headphones in toe.

Last edited by Granyala; 11/18/17 07:47 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: Granyala] #2690394
11/18/17 08:16 AM
11/18/17 08:16 AM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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I hope you can do that by next Friday 😁.
Gonna buy my future piano by then.

But sound itself is a highly personal matter. Before I heard Kawai, I was a Yamaha fan... 😂

Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690395
11/18/17 08:34 AM
11/18/17 08:34 AM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by wolflone249
On the other hand the CN37 comes complete with pedals and everything...


You keep alluding to the fact that you have to purchase the pedals separately.

Here is the entire package .....

https://www.kraftmusic.com/kawai-es8-digital-piano-black-complete-home-bundle.html

So that is the number you should be thinking of for the ES8 complete with furniture stand, bench, and pedals.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690397
11/18/17 08:46 AM
11/18/17 08:46 AM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dmd
You keep alluding to the fact that you have to purchase the pedals separately.
(...)
So that is the number you should be thinking of for the ES8 complete with furniture stand, bench, and pedals.


Thanks for pointing it out, but I did mention that in fact in my first post, albeit not very clearly.😊

Originally Posted by wolflone249
(...)I’m aware of the fact that one is portable. That “feature” isn’t really important to me. The price is almost the same where I live. What I’m really concerned is that the ES8 seems to have the better sound generation system in it. But is the difference between them enough to justify that I would have to buy the stand and pedals in addition to the ES8 itself?I can hear slight differences in the YouTube samples, but those might also be due to compression.(...)

Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690413
11/18/17 10:40 AM
11/18/17 10:40 AM
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Hello I have an ES8 for almost 2 years and I use an ES7 too. Theses two are with a F301 3-pedal unit and the the HM-4 stand.

The main problem is the F301. The distance between keyboard and pedal is far too short (ten centimeters than my acoutic upright).
Il have modified it in order to have 6 cm more but it is too short, it is painfull to play.
This pedal mechanics is ok (very heavy as a real one, and works as a grand one with 1/2)

The HM-4 is a little bit unstable (for playing ragtimes ...).

I only use EX ConcertGrand sound. it is far better and more stereo more spatial, more everything and realistic.

There is a huge difference between headphone sound (Beyerdynamic DT 770 pro), and direct sound (really need amplifier).

The keyboard is ok, no problem after that to play on acoustic grand or upright.


Daewoo Royale RS 18 C - Kawai ES8
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: BachToTheFuture] #2690420
11/18/17 11:05 AM
11/18/17 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
The main problem is the F301. The distance between keyboard and pedal is far too short (ten centimeters than my acoutic upright).
Il have modified it in order to have 6 cm more but it is too short, it is painfull to play.


FINALLY !!! Someone else experienced that and commented on it. Thank You

I had it but took it off. Could not use it.

In fact, I will give it to anyone who will pay the shipping on it.




I expressed that over a year ago but no-one else seemed to chime in with that experience.

I use the damper pedal (F-10H) that comes with the keyboard and place it where I like it. It works fine.

I would never purchase the F301 3-pedal unit that is an option for it.


So, with that in mind .... You purchase the keyboard and furniture stand (HML4) and bench. Good to go.


With that said ....

I still think the Kawai CN37 would be a good choice, also. It is just a nicer piece of furniture for home use.

All that other technical stuff will soon be forgotten and of much less importance when you are just playing it and not analyzing it.







Last edited by dmd; 11/18/17 11:22 AM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690436
11/18/17 12:13 PM
11/18/17 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wolflone249
I hope you can do that by next Friday 😁.

Oh boy, considering the purchase is still a few months away for me (Unless I rob a bank. ^_^), I doubt that I will make it to the store that quickly. Sorry.

Originally Posted by wolflone249
But sound itself is a highly personal matter. Before I heard Kawai, I was a Yamaha fan... 😂

I actually quite like the clarity of the CFX.
Which is why trying out the Garritan-CFX VST is tempting.

@BachToTheFuture: Thank you, that essentially closes the book on the ES-8 for me. I already saw the wobbling in the promotional video and was worried. (EU Video cleverly uses a white piano with a white background, so you can barely spot anything :< )

@dmd: Very true, us budget conscious buyers do tend to over-analyze. Esp once we find out, that the "tech limits" are nothing compared to the limits our inexperienced hands will impose on us. laugh

Last edited by Granyala; 11/18/17 12:15 PM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: Granyala] #2690444
11/18/17 12:34 PM
11/18/17 12:34 PM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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Well, before my head bursts and I can’t use it anymore for learning, I took the dive and ordered a bundle, of which the CN37 is part of. It includes a bench (height-adjustable) and some Philips phones (guess I use them for... collecting dust I suppose).

Before anyone asks for the price, here it is: roughly converted it would be US$ 1’660.-

If anyone is interested, I can keep you posted here, when the delivery has been made.


Thanks sll of you, for your opinions, advices.
Great community here!

Last edited by wolflone249; 11/18/17 12:34 PM.
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690460
11/18/17 01:24 PM
11/18/17 01:24 PM
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Congrats on your decision. laugh
I'd definitely be interested to hear your thoughts after experiencing the CN-37 in your home.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: wolflone249] #2690495
11/18/17 05:25 PM
11/18/17 05:25 PM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by wolflone249
Well, before my head bursts and I can’t use it anymore for learning, I took the dive and ordered a bundle, of which the CN37 is part of. It includes a bench (height-adjustable) and some Philips phones (guess I use them for... collecting dust I suppose).

Before anyone asks for the price, here it is: roughly converted it would be US$ 1’660.-

If anyone is interested, I can keep you posted here, when the delivery has been made.


Thanks sll of you, for your opinions, advices.
Great community here!


I think you have made the right decision.

And ... the phones ? Useless ? I think not.

In fact, that is where you may get your finest sound.

Also ... In the early stages of your learning, they can come in handy when playing within earshot of other human beings ... LOL

Enjoy smile

Last edited by dmd; 11/18/17 05:26 PM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: dmd] #2690512
11/18/17 06:24 PM
11/18/17 06:24 PM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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That is true @dmd. 😁

As far as the headphones go... I already got a decent pair. But yeah, I'll keep them as backups. Never can have enough headphones.

Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: dmd] #2690573
11/19/17 05:22 AM
11/19/17 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dmd
And ... the phones ? Useless ? I think not.

In fact, that is where you may get your finest sound.

Highly dependent on the quality of the HPs.

If you are used to a Beyerdynamic DT-880 like me, you do tend to develop a "snob" attitude that prevents you from enjoying music from cheap sound sources. These days I prefer silence over some crappy speaker throwing distorted notes at me. Esp infuriating if my mother wants to "show" me something on a smartphone speaker. Them damn high frequencies are downright painful. >.<

Originally Posted by dmd
Also ... In the early stages of your learning, they can come in handy when playing within earshot of other human beings ... LOL

Yeah... I can't count the times at which I have wished to be able to plug a pair of HPs into my flute (e.g. 2nd and 3rd register longtone practice).
Alas, no can do. Best to live out ones own sadistic tendencies and try to enjoy inflicting pain on others. laugh

Last edited by Granyala; 11/19/17 05:27 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37 [Re: Granyala] #2690648
11/19/17 02:56 PM
11/19/17 02:56 PM
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wolflone249 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Granyala
These days I prefer silence over some crappy speaker throwing distorted notes at me. Esp infuriating if my mother wants to "show" me something on a smartphone speaker. Them damn high frequencies are downright painful. >.<


(Warning: contains sarcasm and a pinch of salt):
How dare you to insult the HiFi sound quality of various overpriced smartphones? And yes, I left the others out intentionally, because they don’t boast with it.

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