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Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
#2689927 11/16/17 08:10 AM
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The Kawai MP-11 (not SE) and the Roland FP-90 cost roughly the same in my country (Denmark), but which one has the better action?

I own a Yamaha CP-33 and my primary purpose is upgrade to an action that is better in terms of allowing and encouraging development of good grand piano technique, trills, repetitions, pianissimo etc.

I have tried both pianos and they certainly feel different, but I find it difficult to say which one is best. I have read a lot of the discussions about these two actions, pivot lengths, repetition speed etc, but I still don't know which one to choose.

I am also considering the Kawai CA-67 if it drops in price when the CA-78 come in stock. But how much better is the GF-II action compared to the GF and the PHA-50?

Feel free to recommend other alternatives, but I think the best actions in these price ranges are the GF-II, GF and PHA-50.

Also, I am a little bit nervous about all the threads about Kawai quality control, so feel free to comment on this as well, positively or negatively.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2689932 11/16/17 08:58 AM
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I have two Kawai products in my home and never had a problem with it. I also play Roland FP-90 but the action is too light for me. It is a matter of preference. Having said that for strictly piano playing I recommend Kawai, and having said that I recommend GFII not because it is so much better then GFI (almost the same) but it is newer and you want that for your money if portability is not your main concern.

Last edited by slobajudge; 11/16/17 09:10 AM.
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2689934 11/16/17 09:10 AM
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They're both good.

The Roland action is certainly good but to me just feels like a good version of a pretty standard digital piano action.

The Kawai (GF or GF2) is on another (higher) level in my opinion.

I had an FP90 for a few days. Action was faulty with metallic knocking/clicking on most As and Bs which became apparent after about an hour on the thing. I am far from being the only person who has had this issue. Three other forum contributors at least to my knowledge have had faulty PHA-50 actions (Dave Horne, Ben Allen and another whose name escapes me right now). I also have a Kawai CS11 (GF2 action) with no issues whatsoever.

For what it's worth in a very short space of time I came to hate (HATE!) the Roland's piano sounds due to them being so artificial sounding. I'm not a big fan of Kawai's main voice on the MP11 either. If you're going Kawai you want one with the newer SK-EX sample onboard in my opinion (CA67 has it and the new MP11SE has it).

Ultimately though only you can decide. Whichever feels nicest to YOU is the best one for YOU.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
EssBrace #2689970 11/16/17 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
The Roland action is certainly good but to me just feels like a good version of a pretty standard digital piano action.

The Kawai (GF or GF2) is on another (higher) level in my opinion.


I'm 100% with EssBrace on this one. Both are high quality, acclaimed actions so you may find you like one over the other. There's nothing wrong with that.

But IMHO, after trying a number of actions, the PHA-50 is really NOT much different at all from the PHA-IV Concert, or even the Ivory Feel-G. It's a Roland action, and it feels like a Roland action, and my guess is Roland's goal was not to fundamentally change the feel from what its users are used to, but to make minor improvements. In fact, the PHA-50 really doesn't boast any major changes other than the addition of cosmetic wooden panels on the sides and additional stabilization pins to reduce lateral wobble, so it makes sense that that it feels similar to their other actions.

The GF/GF2 feel completely different IMO. They're buttery smooth, and are much closer to the feel of a high-end acoustic grand action. In fact, I find that although I can easily feel the difference between GF1 and a 7' Bosendorfer action, I can completely and seamlessly transition between the two, which is really a high compliment.

The thing I want to point out is that for me, it's REALLY hard to make an accurate snap judgment with only a few hours of play. It took me multiple auditioning sessions to determine that the PHA-50 felt like X, the GF felt like Y, the GF2 felt like Z, and a the acoustic grand felt like AA. I think that's probably a testament to how good current digital actions are nowadays. But in any case...


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
EssBrace #2689992 11/16/17 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
They're both good.

The Roland action is certainly good but to me just feels like a good version of a pretty standard digital piano action.

The Kawai (GF or GF2) is on another (higher) level in my opinion.


+1.


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Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

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Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2690021 11/16/17 01:09 PM
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You have tried them, read almost all PW forums thread about them, they cost the same. You still can not choose. If you are looking only at action choose GF2. The majority of people here will suggest GF2, it has longer pivots, real wood keys, counterweights. Nobody will tell you have made a bad choice. From an FP90 owner. smile

Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2690023 11/16/17 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
The Kawai MP-11 (not SE) and the Roland FP-90 cost roughly the same in my country (Denmark), but which one has the better action?

I own a Yamaha CP-33 and my primary purpose is upgrade to an action that is better in terms of allowing and encouraging development of good grand piano technique, trills, repetitions, pianissimo etc.

I have tried both pianos and they certainly feel different, but I find it difficult to say which one is best. I have read a lot of the discussions about these two actions, pivot lengths, repetition speed etc, but I still don't know which one to choose.

I am also considering the Kawai CA-67 if it drops in price when the CA-78 come in stock. But how much better is the GF-II action compared to the GF and the PHA-50?

Feel free to recommend other alternatives, but I think the best actions in these price ranges are the GF-II, GF and PHA-50.

Also, I am a little bit nervous about all the threads about Kawai quality control, so feel free to comment on this as well, positively or negatively.


1) Short list models to test.
2) Sit at each one, close your eyes and play the main grand piano.
3) When you've done that, choose the one you liked the most.

We've got plenty of posts reviewing and comparing these instruments and their actions. There is one post showing clearly why the GFII action is superior; however, some extremely good pianists prefer the Roland action eg. Phil Best. I've tried them all. On action alone, I admit the GFII is marginally better than the GFI, which is even more marginally better than the PHA-50. If you then play a modern Yamaha acoustic grand at the store, you think---"well, the digital actions all seem unrealistic (although they are much closer than a decade ago).

I don't think you can choose a digital only on action. There is the sound, the dynamic expressiveness and the feeling you get that results from playing. Then, if you take the headphones off, the amplification can be compared.

Get what you enjoy playing the most after 30 mins of trial. If you're drawn to the expensive one, think of how much more a year it will cost you over 10 years!

Last edited by Doug M.; 11/16/17 01:19 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2690030 11/16/17 01:53 PM
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Short answer:
I concur with EssBrace and Gombessa.

Longer answer:
I recently decided between Kawai and Roland models, finally buying an MP11SE.

I tried a few models several times and was surprised when my experience contrasted with my expectations. Of course, these impressions are subjective.

At entry level, I expected to prefer the Roland FP-30, but I actually greatly preferred the Kawai ES110.
Above that, I expected to prefer the Kawai ES8, but I actually preferred the Roland FP-90.

After playing the MP11, my choice was clear.
The MP11 and the grand feel 2 consoles I played felt like pianos. I actually preferred the feeling of the MP11’s grand feel 1 over the grand feel 2 pianos, another surprise. But that preference felt similar to the way one prefers the action of one acoustic over another… different pianos… one not “better” than the other.

I mention this experience to show how I favored the MP11 and Grand Feel 2 actions… but of the rest, the FP-90 was my favorite. I really was wowed by the feeling of connectedness to the sound that the FP-90 brought.

At the end of the day, I bought an MP11SE.

Cheers.


Kawai MP11SE | K&M 18950 | Pianoteq Pro (Bleuthner, Steingraeber, Petrof, Bechstein, Steinway B & D, Electric Pianos, K) | Sennheiser HD600 | Sony WH-1000XM3 (using wired) for noise isolation
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2690037 11/16/17 02:03 PM
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I suppose another thing to consider do you play on acoustics a lot, if not then picking either PHA 50 or GF 2 it will come down to which you enjoy more because does it really matter that much, as long as it lets you do what you want ?

You will hear plenty discussion about various things that claiming A is easier to do on the roland, but B is easier to do on the Kawai, stuff such as repetition speed, trills etc.

My guess, both of these actions would more than suffice for most amateur hobbyist players and not be limiting factor 99% of the time, the player skill level weighs far more (IMO).

With my very limited exposure to acoustics ( and skill) kawai is really the only action that I felt was closest to an acoustic, on the whole, at least to some grands, but not all.
The couple of Steinways I tried felt quite a bit away from any kawai I tried and felt easier to play "lighter" "responsive" ( call it what you will ) compared to any Kawai with the millenium 3 action I tried, which in turn felt remarkable close the grand feel action.

Kawai often tend to lean towards the heavier side, many describe millenium 3 as quite firm and a heavier action in terms of down weight, (coming from vendors, other experts,not me) but I also found this to be the case and Grand feel mirrors that well ( IMO).

I tried a couple of steinway Os way back, and a few kawais at the same time, though not the SK2 and concur with the observations in this video. The Steinways I tried were from a similar era in that video.

https://youtu.be/U9Q9Eu_Mq9I?t=1m12s.

So something that may factor into the decision, does one prefer a lighter or heavier action. The closest thing in authenticity may not be all that important to you if you are never, or rarely going to play on acoustics anyway.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
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Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
slobajudge #2692339 11/27/17 12:26 PM
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which kawai 's do you own?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2692362 11/27/17 02:34 PM
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Hi guys,

I am currently looking at selling my .... *Removed by moderator*

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 11/28/17 02:48 AM. Reason: For sale ad not allowed.
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2694833 12/06/17 04:11 PM
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Ok, this comes from a beginner player. I had the VPC-1 for about 1 year now, playing quite regulary The keys on the Kawai to me feel nice, very smooth, solid, "analogue" and quite silent action. On the other hand, the key action feels a little bit heavy and - somehow slow to react.

Following some Youtube videos that include Pianoteq (Phil Best) I ordered and received the fp-90 a few days ago. The 2 keyboards are very different for everything except them having a weighted 88 keyboard. The housing and the general "look and feel" of the VPC1 is superb and better than the plastikish Roland. The loudspeakers in the Roland are - sorry for that - as crappy as anything I've heard in terms of in- built loudspeakers. Loud yes - good, NO. Doesn't do justice to the sound of a piano, reminds more of a portable device. I equally ordered the JBL LRS305 and they are quite a bit better. Quite a bit!

As for the key action: The Roland feels "less wooden" (which it is), and it has some rough edges at the front of the white keys, in comparision to the Kawai. However it is also less slippery, lighter touch (many have remarked that) but also clearly more reactive. Despite it's relative lightness however the keys feel quite unplasticish - very precise and "expensive" - even if this is not a very scientific attribute. In any case, I haven't played a purely plastic made keyboard that feels as good as the PHA50. The VPC1 key action to me feels better in some respect, but inferior in other respects.
Phil Best who has played and been trained on Steinway grand pianos says the fp-90 reminds him of a Steinway B in terms of key action. I am not to judge that, because all I have done on a Steinway is hitting a few chords in a store. However I find it overall a bit nicer to play, even if I will miss my VPC1. I mainly bought the Roland because I need - for space reasons - to store the keyboard under a desk onto a keyboard tray, which the VPC 1 is too high for (it is at least 2-3cm more than the average digipiano, but the MP11 is even worse).
The extra features of the Roland do not interest me that much, maybe my daughter will play the synth sounds more than me. Too early for a real review still, but my first feeling is quite positive - I expected a dissappointment really, but the key action feels really nice.

Bottom line is that there will be always different opinions, according to playing style, music style and - more than that - habits and personal preferences. Many players proove that it is possible to deliver amazing performances on all kinds of keyboards, so the best advice would be to try out, decide and forget then. Specially in the digital world there is always something new around the corner. Not good.

Last edited by Bernie_Ess; 12/06/17 04:16 PM.
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2695167 12/07/17 05:43 PM
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I can't seem to edit my posting of yesterday any longer as it seems. But I have an important addition to make:

Today when I played the fp-90 I noticed that the distance between the black keys is not equal. More precisely: The difference between the black- keys in the 3-black- blocks (F#, G# and A#) is narrower than between C# and D# - over the entire keyboard. The effect is - and I did not notice this in the store neither in the first hours with the keyboard, that my fingers - more large than "fat" I would say - cannot glide between the black keys without noticable "friction" (if this is the right word) in the mentioned positions. Between C# and D# no problem, between the others too narrow. I immediately checked on my VPC-1, and it was no problem. On the Kawai the Keys are equal in distance. Wow, I am somehow puzzled.

Please, can anybody check this on his or her fp-90? I find it bothering because one of the differences between VPC1 and fp90 is that the key action on the Roland is lighter, which I welcome, however when going into the black keys, the effect is thus reversed in an annoying way. My first reflex is that I consider giving it back. Very strange phenomenon...

Last edited by Bernie_Ess; 12/07/17 05:45 PM.
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2695180 12/07/17 06:43 PM
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Some players are fond of the idea that there is good and bad technique when it comes to playing. Just as in Chess, boxing and knitting, in playing piano (keyboards in general), there are many excellent players who have different techniques/styles . How your finger/hand posture forms as you play is one aspect only. Nobody criticizes Art Tatum or Stevie Wonder for their way.

You are playing the field. Some girls you can justify logically might make a good partner, but the feeling is important.

Same with deciding on the right piano. Sure, there are pros and cons to weigh, personal goals to consider etc. In the end you've got to play it every day. Do you think the best action is going to add much? I play Badminton with a 28 year old racquet. It's not the most powerful, its specs are not competitive; however, I chose it over a new one because it works for me, and anyway, I don't expect a better racquet will improve me: other aspects are more important!!!. If it breaks, I'll probably look for one that feels right---that I feel suits me.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
Bernie_Ess #2695186 12/07/17 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernie_Ess
More precisely: The difference between the black- keys in the 3-black- blocks (F#, G# and A#) is narrower than between C# and D# - over the entire keyboard..

This is true on my acoustic grand. Also on my FP-30 and ES8.

Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pwl #2695195 12/07/17 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pwl
Originally Posted by Bernie_Ess
More precisely: The difference between the black- keys in the 3-black- blocks (F#, G# and A#) is narrower than between C# and D# - over the entire keyboard..

This is true on my acoustic grand. Also on my FP-30 and ES8.


Yes, and on most keyboard instruments. I can't get my fingers between them.


-- J.S.

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Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
Bernie_Ess #2695248 12/07/17 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernie_Ess
I can't seem to edit my posting of yesterday any longer as it seems. But I have an important addition to make:

Today when I played the fp-90 I noticed that the distance between the black keys is not equal. More precisely: The difference between the black- keys in the 3-black- blocks (F#, G# and A#) is narrower than between C# and D# - over the entire keyboard. The effect is - and I did not notice this in the store neither in the first hours with the keyboard, that my fingers - more large than "fat" I would say - cannot glide between the black keys without noticable "friction" (if this is the right word) in the mentioned positions. Between C# and D# no problem, between the others too narrow. I immediately checked on my VPC-1, and it was no problem. On the Kawai the Keys are equal in distance. Wow, I am somehow puzzled.

Please, can anybody check this on his or her fp-90? I find it bothering because one of the differences between VPC1 and fp90 is that the key action on the Roland is lighter, which I welcome, however when going into the black keys, the effect is thus reversed in an annoying way. My first reflex is that I consider giving it back. Very strange phenomenon...


I don't have a ruler, but I used a pen and a line, and there is about a millimeter of difference. The distance between C# and D# is 1mm wider than between F# and G# and G# and A#. Wow.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
Beakybird #2695280 12/08/17 04:21 AM
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Thanks for checking, 1mm is exactly the difference I measured with a ruler. Doesn't Sound like much, but in my case it's exactly the difference between nice and uncomfortable. For most women and guys with slimmer hands it may not be any problem... The keys o
f my VPC1 feel very comfortable in comparison, just a tiny bit heavy.
I am quite annoyed...

Last edited by Bernie_Ess; 12/08/17 05:08 AM.
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2695456 12/08/17 09:04 PM
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Wow. I just measured on a Yamaha and Bosendorfer as well a Piaggero and two Casio DPs. They all have narrower gaps between FGA# than between CD#.

Yet another thing I had no idea about smile mainly because I have bony fingers I guess.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai MP-11 vs Roland FP-90 actions
pinkfloydhomer #2695469 12/08/17 10:30 PM
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Now every time I make a mistake, I can blame it on that lost millimeter.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
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