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Mason & Hamlin B #2689268
11/13/17 07:14 PM
11/13/17 07:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
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Randy R. Johnson Offline OP
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Randy R. Johnson  Offline OP
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I have a Mason & Hamlin B, serial #38859. Someone restrung it some years back and didn’t quite get the aliquot positions correct. I’m about to rebuild and was wondering if anyone knows the speaking lengths of that duplex scale.

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Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689317
11/13/17 11:19 PM
11/13/17 11:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,832
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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What are the symptoms the maladjusted duplex rests cause?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2689384
11/14/17 09:14 AM
11/14/17 09:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
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Randy R. Johnson Offline OP
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Randy R. Johnson  Offline OP
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The aliquots are the individual type. I tuned the piano (it’s at pitch) and when I pluck the duplex strings, the partial pitches are off from the piano’s partial pitches. Some are close, so I can adjust them, but others are in between partials so I’m not sure exactly which way to move the aliquot. I want to have them in place before I remove these old strings so I can make a template for their placement when I restring. If someone has a B out there and can measure positions, that would at least get me close.

Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689391
11/14/17 09:40 AM
11/14/17 09:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,713
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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The aliquots are tuned to the 12th, octave or unison. The shape of the plate on which the aliquots rest implies which pitch is desired. Calculate the ratio of the speaking length of the string to the speaking length of the rear bridge pin to the aliquot to determine the expected pitch.

In the high treble the unison aliquots are very annoying, since any error in positioning is heard as beating.

It is much like tuning a mixture rank on an organ.

Last edited by prout; 11/14/17 09:41 AM. Reason: added info
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Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689425
11/14/17 11:50 AM
11/14/17 11:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Aliquots on Mason & Hamlin are not tuned to perfect intervals.


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Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689444
11/14/17 01:25 PM
11/14/17 01:25 PM
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Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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You are wrong.

1) I did not state they were tuned as perfect intervals, though I admit I implied that the unison aliqouts should be tuned beatless. On my piano, G7 through C8 are unison pitches in the aliquots. The other intervals are tuned to vibrate sympathetically with the speaking length. There is a ring that occurs when they are correctly positioned.

2) As usual, you provide no actual factual information that would help the poster. Answer ths question How imperfect do you like to tune the unison aliquots on your M&H? And while you are at it, explain how imperfect you like to the other fifths, octaves and twelfths.

Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689484
11/14/17 04:02 PM
11/14/17 04:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 573
New Hampshire
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WilliamTruitt Offline
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More to the point, how many perfect intervals are there in a piano? Even "beatless" is a relative term.

I think Prout's remark that there is a ring when they are correctly positioned is sufficient. There is an audible boost to the presence of a note.

All that said, we almost never hear aliquots that are even relatively in tune. Certainly not on a Steinway with its aliquot plate. I usually mute out part of the plate in the upper tenor section because of the jangling overtones that can be quite annoying.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689620
11/15/17 12:24 AM
11/15/17 12:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,832
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
You could deduce the "intended" placement by dividing the speaking length by whole numbers and seeing where they would fit on the plate.

Divide speaking length by 3 and you have the interval of the 12th. Divide by 2 and you have the interval of the 8th. Then you can "tune" the fine position by ear after that. If that is what it takes to "Ring" your duplex!!



Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 11/15/17 12:24 AM.

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2695957
12/11/17 01:30 AM
12/11/17 01:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110
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synthnut Offline
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Everyone selling M&H's on Ebay, Craigslist and internet usually have good detailed pictures of the plates, duplex/aloquot areas, you could easily get close to their correct position by these photos, seek a similar year and model, getting them perfect is not necessary.


Retired Prototype Engineer,Auto Ind. Longtime professional piano/multi keyboard player and recording. 35 years tuning/restoring, A deep passion for high end grands and woodworking. Currently have 1921 Steinway B and countless multi keyboards/drums/guitars in my studio
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2696075
12/11/17 12:11 PM
12/11/17 12:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,832
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,832
Seattle, WA USA
Don't worry, one can't get the rear string rests "tuned" perfectly. The whole system contains too many inaccuracies and as soon as the humidity changes the pitch relations will change.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

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