Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Our December 2018 Piano Newsletter - free
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
145 registered members (almo82, Albert Brighten, AZNpiano, amad23, Amedeus, ahumdrumoflife, beeboss, 30 invisible), 1,629 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Mason & Hamlin B #2689268
11/13/17 06:14 PM
11/13/17 06:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
R
Randy R. Johnson Offline OP
Junior Member
Randy R. Johnson  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
I have a Mason & Hamlin B, serial #38859. Someone restrung it some years back and didn’t quite get the aliquot positions correct. I’m about to rebuild and was wondering if anyone knows the speaking lengths of that duplex scale.

(ad 800)
PTG Convention
PTG Journal
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689317
11/13/17 10:19 PM
11/13/17 10:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,931
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,931
Seattle, WA USA
What are the symptoms the maladjusted duplex rests cause?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2689384
11/14/17 08:14 AM
11/14/17 08:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
R
Randy R. Johnson Offline OP
Junior Member
Randy R. Johnson  Offline OP
Junior Member
R

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3
The aliquots are the individual type. I tuned the piano (it’s at pitch) and when I pluck the duplex strings, the partial pitches are off from the piano’s partial pitches. Some are close, so I can adjust them, but others are in between partials so I’m not sure exactly which way to move the aliquot. I want to have them in place before I remove these old strings so I can make a template for their placement when I restring. If someone has a B out there and can measure positions, that would at least get me close.

Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689391
11/14/17 08:40 AM
11/14/17 08:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,199
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,199
Southwestern Ontario
The aliquots are tuned to the 12th, octave or unison. The shape of the plate on which the aliquots rest implies which pitch is desired. Calculate the ratio of the speaking length of the string to the speaking length of the rear bridge pin to the aliquot to determine the expected pitch.

In the high treble the unison aliquots are very annoying, since any error in positioning is heard as beating.

It is much like tuning a mixture rank on an organ.

Last edited by prout; 11/14/17 08:41 AM. Reason: added info
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689425
11/14/17 10:50 AM
11/14/17 10:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,805
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,805
Oakland
Aliquots on Mason & Hamlin are not tuned to perfect intervals.


Semipro Tech
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689444
11/14/17 12:25 PM
11/14/17 12:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,199
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,199
Southwestern Ontario
You are wrong.

1) I did not state they were tuned as perfect intervals, though I admit I implied that the unison aliqouts should be tuned beatless. On my piano, G7 through C8 are unison pitches in the aliquots. The other intervals are tuned to vibrate sympathetically with the speaking length. There is a ring that occurs when they are correctly positioned.

2) As usual, you provide no actual factual information that would help the poster. Answer ths question How imperfect do you like to tune the unison aliquots on your M&H? And while you are at it, explain how imperfect you like to the other fifths, octaves and twelfths.

Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689484
11/14/17 03:02 PM
11/14/17 03:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 605
New Hampshire
W
WilliamTruitt Offline
500 Post Club Member
WilliamTruitt  Offline
500 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 605
New Hampshire
More to the point, how many perfect intervals are there in a piano? Even "beatless" is a relative term.

I think Prout's remark that there is a ring when they are correctly positioned is sufficient. There is an audible boost to the presence of a note.

All that said, we almost never hear aliquots that are even relatively in tune. Certainly not on a Steinway with its aliquot plate. I usually mute out part of the plate in the upper tenor section because of the jangling overtones that can be quite annoying.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2689620
11/14/17 11:24 PM
11/14/17 11:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,931
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,931
Seattle, WA USA
You could deduce the "intended" placement by dividing the speaking length by whole numbers and seeing where they would fit on the plate.

Divide speaking length by 3 and you have the interval of the 12th. Divide by 2 and you have the interval of the 8th. Then you can "tune" the fine position by ear after that. If that is what it takes to "Ring" your duplex!!



Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 11/14/17 11:24 PM.

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2695957
12/11/17 12:30 AM
12/11/17 12:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110
MI
S
synthnut Offline
Full Member
synthnut  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110
MI
Everyone selling M&H's on Ebay, Craigslist and internet usually have good detailed pictures of the plates, duplex/aloquot areas, you could easily get close to their correct position by these photos, seek a similar year and model, getting them perfect is not necessary.


Retired Prototype Engineer,Auto Ind. Longtime professional piano/multi keyboard player and recording. 35 years tuning/restoring, A deep passion for high end grands and woodworking. Currently have 1921 Steinway B and countless multi keyboards/drums/guitars in my studio
Re: Mason & Hamlin B [Re: Randy R. Johnson] #2696075
12/11/17 11:11 AM
12/11/17 11:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,931
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,931
Seattle, WA USA
Don't worry, one can't get the rear string rests "tuned" perfectly. The whole system contains too many inaccuracies and as soon as the humidity changes the pitch relations will change.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
A Christmas song for the old folks
by Peyton. 12/14/18 11:08 AM
OT - A really well done video on what a pipe organ is
by Rich Galassini. 12/14/18 10:25 AM
Resist the urge to play through - why??
by Animisha. 12/14/18 08:32 AM
XML
by LarryMan. 12/14/18 07:34 AM
Technics PR 100
by Tteedd. 12/14/18 07:16 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,902
Posts2,771,238
Members91,761
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2