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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688891
11/11/17 10:30 PM
11/11/17 10:30 PM
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Epee Offline
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It always boils down to what feels and sounds good to me and no one else. I tried the Kawai CS11 and a CP1, and preferred the Roland LX-17. I just liked it better, and I spent a lot of time on all three of them. After that I picked up the RD-2000 simply because I liked the way it sounded and felt, which makes sense, it has the same action. You can laugh but if and when I buy an acoustic, I'm looking for one that has the feel of my Rolands. I love them end of story, well at least for me it is.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2689015
11/12/17 03:50 PM
11/12/17 03:50 PM
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@Epee, try the small Steinways. I've tried a couple while travelling and the actions themselves were somewhat similar in feel. The sound and realism were another matter :))

Originally Posted by Osho

Exactly - Roland seems to have standardized on a mid-tier action across a range of prouducts.


I still don't see it as such. It's a different action, it's shorter than GF, longer than most others and it's great. As previously stated, the CLP range had the GH3, GH3x, NW, NWx actions until recently, and all of them are found to be lesser actions by a lot of people on the forum who are interested on the subject and tested a large variety of DPs. The description of high initial inertia of the GH3 especially, and in a smaller measure of the "higher end" actions is quite accurate. You have to push harder to get the key moving and then it feels like it's gliding without any mass to it.
Also, the newer GrandTouch already received its fair share of criticism, which may (or may not) be warranted, but actual measurements of the key weighting show it to be significantly above heavy grand actions.
So they have "higher" actions as they go up in price. Is that a good thing? Subjectively, for many of us, it appears they are still inferior, so, other than not having "higher end" actions with the more expensive Rolands, I'd say the action is pretty good. The best? Probably not. But I wouldn't call it mid-tier either. And the design decisions may come with advantages in durability, low maintenance etc.

Hard to say which one is the best. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. I'm trying as well to decide on which is the best for myself for the next purchase.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2689032
11/12/17 05:22 PM
11/12/17 05:22 PM
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I've just pasted and rescaled an image of the Kawai RH II action into the image above.

I've measured the distance of the beginning of the key to the pivot to be 503 pixels for the PHA-50, and 441 pixels for the RH II. Assuming the Roland pivot length of 220mm is correct, it would seem the RH II has a pivot length of 220 / 503 * 441 = +/- 192mm (19.2 cm).


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2689081
11/12/17 10:58 PM
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I will give the small Steinways a try mcoll, thanks for the advice!

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2730768
04/22/18 01:00 AM
04/22/18 01:00 AM
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A couple days ago I went back to a local music store where I was able to test, for the fourth time, the Kawai CA 78 and 98 models and, again, I just could not stand the way they felt. The Grand Feel II action just isn’t for me (I really want to like it... but I’m unable) At least not yet. Anyway, as I walked about the store I was happy to finally get my hands on a Novus 10. The Millenium 3 action was beautiful and sounded great but out of my price range.

After this I found a Roland DP-603, HP 603 and HP 605 and I really liked the feel of the PHA-50 action. The day after I went to a different store and tested an LX-7. Again, I loved the action. Anyway, I’ve tried many models by Yamaha, Kawai and Roland. Until I read the posts in this thread I wasn’t aware of the distance to the pivot point on the PHA-50 action but I still thought it satisfied me the most. Actions - I either love ‘em or hate ‘em.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2732740
04/29/18 12:57 PM
04/29/18 12:57 PM
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Piano actions are indeed very subjective. Several decades of research has gone into Roland's PHA-50 action. Then package it with a top-of-the-line sound system like in the LX-17 or the GP609 and you end up with an overall satisfying experience for a digital piano.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: SLQ] #2732745
04/29/18 01:26 PM
04/29/18 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SLQ
A couple days ago I went back to a local music store where I was able to test, for the fourth time, the Kawai CA 78 and 98 models and, again, I just could not stand the way they felt. The Grand Feel II action just isn’t for me (I really want to like it... but I’m unable) At least not yet. Anyway, as I walked about the store I was happy to finally get my hands on a Novus 10. The Millenium 3 action was beautiful and sounded great but out of my price range.

After this I found a Roland DP-603, HP 603 and HP 605 and I really liked the feel of the PHA-50 action. The day after I went to a different store and tested an LX-7. Again, I loved the action. Anyway, I’ve tried many models by Yamaha, Kawai and Roland. Until I read the posts in this thread I wasn’t aware of the distance to the pivot point on the PHA-50 action but I still thought it satisfied me the most. Actions - I either love ‘em or hate ‘em.


Fair play and congrats, and good for you for picking an action based on what you feel thumb rather than be entertained by looks of the action and marketing sheets, whether it has wooden keys and therefore feels closer to an acoustic action etc. I was back yesterday trying out the Roland PHA_50 and was reminded of how much I enjoyed it, In my case I like GF 2 also, but it could be a hard choice, not sure which of the two to go for right now, but in the end I don't care if the keys are wood, see saw versus folded, and therefore it is supposedly more realistic etc etc, I only care about how it feels and how it is weighted mainly.

In my case in neither the sound engine is that important, neither the roland nor kawai would be the top choice if it came down to that aspect, it is purely for the keys and to use mainly use as a midi controller. Just as well, otherwise I would be stuck with that issue, why do the nicest feeling actions never have the nicest sound engines ( for me that is how it turns out anyway ), gimme a Nord 3 any day over a kawai/roland and even the CLP range with the CFX I like more too, as much as the yam sound engine often gets criticised here, and If I want modelling I have pteq for that, I am happy enough with that for that aspect.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: SLQ] #2732752
04/29/18 02:04 PM
04/29/18 02:04 PM
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I love Roland piano actions, especially on the high-end model.
I chose GrandFeel 2 because it has the closest touch to our Yamaha C7, there is still some gap between them tho.
Pivot point? PHA-50 is way better than most upright piano (in my opinion laugh )
Pick piano you love the most wink


Let's help each other... laugh
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2732763
04/29/18 02:29 PM
04/29/18 02:29 PM
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All the latest digital actions are good enough. In any case if you play on enough different pianos your technique will improve and you will adapt to whatever piano you play on.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2732828
04/29/18 07:15 PM
04/29/18 07:15 PM
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Good choice! I am another PHA50 fan here. I have a FP90 in my study for night time practice and I like it a lot. I spent quite a bit of time comparing to Kawai's GF2 action in store when I was shopping last year.

1. As far as key weight goes, GF2 was 50g at middle C while the PHA50 was 55g (yes, I carried small metal weights for actual measurements), so very similar.
2. GF2's longer pivot length does have an advantage for playing at 'back-of-key' but PHA50 is very good already.
3. PHA50 won me over because it was much better at fast repeats while GF2 felt a little "laggy".

To me, my curiosity was satisfied. Roland's PHA50 is in fact a very good key action; while the highly praised GF2 action here simply has own trade-offs


Yamaha U1 | Roland FP90+JBL LSR305
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2732906
04/30/18 02:38 AM
04/30/18 02:38 AM
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Just for info, the (baby?) grand piano action I have for my DIY controller has a pivot length of 23cm. Same as AG but shorter than NV10.


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Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2732915
04/30/18 03:25 AM
04/30/18 03:25 AM
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Does anyone have a compiled list of key lengths for pianos?

It would be useful to know the typical range for grand pianos. For upright pianos. For digital consoles like the AGs and NVs. For the upper-range Clavs and CA-series. For the slabs.

In the end, all that matters is the "feel". But I'd like to get some idea of key length vs. feel.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: WarrenY] #2732923
04/30/18 04:37 AM
04/30/18 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by WarrenY

(...)
3. PHA50 won me over because it was much better at fast repeats while GF2 felt a little "laggy".

To me, my curiosity was satisfied. Roland's PHA50 is in fact a very good key action; while the highly praised GF2 action here simply has own trade-offs


The PHA50 is indeed a good action, very likely the best folded plastic action currently on the market. However, if you compare it with the GF2 then you cannot skip a major trade-off: the mechanical noise. The PHA50 is quite noisy and sounds plastic/hollow even when inside the Rolands with wooden cabinets whereas the GF2 is quieter and sounds and feels like a solid wood action. Whether this factor is important or not is up to you.

Note that very fast repeats can definitely be achieved on the GF2 with the proper technique as you can read in previous posts on this thread. Moreover, the pivot point on the PHA50 is quite shorter than the one on the GF2. It may be "good" enough for you but it does feel noticeable shorter than what you would get on any acoustic.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: MacMacMac] #2732948
04/30/18 06:55 AM
04/30/18 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does anyone have a compiled list of key lengths for pianos?


Glad that you asked. I dislike adjectives from people without real data, so I have been keeping a short list for myself from real measurements and from info gathered online.

Here you go. Pivot length and force ratio from fallboard+2cm (playing at back-of-key) to front-1cm (playing at front), assuming exposed white key is 15cm :

- Yamaha GHS, 17.25cm [3.82]
- Casio Privia, 18.75cm [3.08]
- Yamaha GH, GH3, GH3X, NW, NWX, 20cm [2.71]
- Kawai RHIII, 20cm [2.71]
- Roland PHA50, 22cm [2.33]
- Yamaha AvantGrand, 23.5cm [2.14]
- Kawai GF/GF2, 24.1cm [2.08]
- Kawai Millennium III, 26cm [1.92]

See how PHA50 is the longest folded action in the market. And, once you get close to a force ratio of 2, the difference becomes small and likely buried in key weight variations of different actions.

EDIT: I expect the pivot length of Yamaha's GrandTouch to be closer to PHA50 than GF2 but I don't know until someone takes apart a CLP675 or 685.

Last edited by WarrenY; 04/30/18 08:12 AM.

Yamaha U1 | Roland FP90+JBL LSR305
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: arc7urus] #2732951
04/30/18 07:15 AM
04/30/18 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Note that very fast repeats can definitely be achieved on the GF2 with the proper technique as you can read in previous posts on this thread.


Sure, I can "deal with it." but why? when I have choices.

Last edited by WarrenY; 04/30/18 07:24 AM.

Yamaha U1 | Roland FP90+JBL LSR305
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: WarrenY] #2732965
04/30/18 08:28 AM
04/30/18 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by WarrenY
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Note that very fast repeats can definitely be achieved on the GF2 with the proper technique as you can read in previous posts on this thread.


Sure, I can "deal with it." but why? when I have choices.


I think that is probably something that is situational. If I am just playing at home on my LX-17 then it does not matter at all. If I plan on also playing other pianos at recitals or whatever, then it could matter, and I would want what I am learning to be at least close enough to translate, and be able to play.

Adjusting to a different feel is expected, every piano is going to feel different. But, if it does not allow for a level of development of technique that is required on most other instruments, it would be limiting.

I love my LX-17 and don't really have an issue with adjusting when I play on a grand piano, although I find it harder to adjust to an upright (and that could be just the few uprights I play on more regularly). Whether or not it's actually limiting would take someone who is more advanced than I playing music more complex than I am currently playing.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: WarrenY] #2732985
04/30/18 09:49 AM
04/30/18 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by WarrenY

Glad that you asked. I dislike adjectives from people without real data, so I have been keeping a short list for myself from real measurements and from info gathered online.

Here you go. Pivot length and force ratio from fallboard+2cm (playing at back-of-key) to front-1cm (playing at front), assuming exposed white key is 15cm :
...
EDIT: I expect the pivot length of Yamaha's GrandTouch to be closer to PHA50 than GF2 but I don't know until someone takes apart a CLP675 or 685.


Fantastic, thanks for the sharing the list! Btw, I recall seeing GrandTouch keys here a couple of months back, I'll see if I can dig out the thread (I don't recall it having support length measurements though). Also, hopefully you're keeping an eye out for Grand Feel Compact (and older RM3-Grand) numbers too?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: arc7urus] #2732999
04/30/18 10:33 AM
04/30/18 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
The PHA50 is indeed a good action, very likely the best folded plastic action currently on the market. However, if you compare it with the GF2 then you cannot skip a major trade-off: the mechanical noise. The PHA50 is quite noisy and sounds plastic/hollow even when inside the Rolands with wooden cabinets whereas the GF2 is quieter and sounds and feels like a solid wood action


Yes, I’ve noticed this myself. It is on the noisier side and it may feel hollow. Still, the touch feels great.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2743880
06/12/18 11:04 AM
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Just a few things to put pivot lengths in context.

I believe the pivot length of the Kawais is overstated. The key doesn’t pivot on the pin, but on the top of the balance rail (the shelf that the keys rest on) in a grand. In the GF, it looks to me like 23 cm or thereabouts, for the white keys, is probably a reasonable estimate. Both the Roland PHA50 and Kawai GF pivot lengths are much shorter than a big grand, but once we get past a certain point, small differences have very little relevance -even a concert grand’s keys feel different towards the fall board.

The issue of the offset for the black keys is more complicated. For the effect to be the same on different piano sizes, the offset would need to be proportional to key length. However, on a concert grand the offset is often no greater than on a smaller piano in the same series. This means that black key offset on a concert grand has very little effect on the feel of the action compared to a smaller piano. Some offset is necessary if we want the key travel to be the similar on the black and white keys, without having to have different leverage ratios.

On top of this, there is nothing in physics/mechanics that tells us that a folded action is inherently inferior. A grand piano is a folded beam with three levers with an action ratio of around 10:1.

If you like an action, it’s a good action. If you don’t it’s not. One way or another, the “spec” differences here are fairly trivial when it comes to explaining a preference for one of these actions over another.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2743897
06/12/18 12:30 PM
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In the above post, the 10:1 ratio is that between key and hammer travel. I wasn’t referring to the keystick length on either side of the pivot in the Kawai.

BTW I have an MP 10 and an FP90. Both companies make amazing products.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/12/18 12:31 PM.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2743915
06/12/18 02:08 PM
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Sorry I made a silly mistake. On my piano, the hammer travels 45mm for 10mm key travel.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: johnstaf] #2743977
06/12/18 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Sorry I made a silly mistake. On my piano, the hammer travels 45mm for 10mm key travel.


Does this mean your post should have read:

Originally Posted by johnstaf
In the above post, the 4.5:1 ratio is that between key and hammer travel.


Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744025
06/12/18 11:30 PM
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Yes James thank you. Although it’s probably closer to 5:1 when I take let off into account.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: johnstaf] #2744064
06/13/18 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Just a few things to put pivot lengths in context.

I believe the pivot length of the Kawais is overstated. The key doesn’t pivot on the pin, but on the top of the balance rail (the shelf that the keys rest on) in a grand. In the GF, it looks to me like 23 cm or thereabouts, for the white keys, is probably a reasonable estimate.


It's 24.1cm. People have bothered to actually take the keys out and measure this in other threads on this forum, there are photos about.

And yes the actual pivot is the bottom edge of the key, but this would make it longer if anything as the you'd have to pythag the 24.1 with the key height. This is usually a minimal difference so everyone tends to gloss over it. At any rate, pha50 also pivots from the 'bottom' of the key.

Regarding folded etc, yes, strictly speaking, what happens the other side of the pivot is it's own thing. I've often wondered if it's perhaps the feel of the pin and felt bushings etc that is what people are actually picking up on.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744084
06/13/18 07:30 AM
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My point isn’t about the pivot being at the bottom, but that it’s closer than 24.1 cm. The bottom of the pin isn’t the pivot point. The pin keeps the key in place, but when depressed, the key pivots on the support underneath and moves up slightly (on the pin). The Steinway accelerated action makes use of this fact, by altering the balance rail to maximize the key leverage for the same key length (and pin position). David Stanwood has a design where the position of the key balance rail (and thus the pivot point) can be changed under the pin (using a lever) to change the feel of the action.

I’d imagine a key difference in the feel between the Kawai and Roland is that the latter has a lot of plastic contact points, whereas in the Kawai the wood and felt contact points are like on an acoustic.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: johnstaf] #2744104
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
My point isn’t about the pivot being at the bottom, but that it’s closer than 24.1 cm. The bottom of the pin isn’t the pivot point. The pin keeps the key in place, but when depressed, the key pivots on the support underneath and moves up slightly (on the pin). The Steinway accelerated action makes use of this fact, by altering the balance rail to maximize the key leverage for the same key length (and pin position). David Stanwood has a design where the position of the key balance rail (and thus the pivot point) can be changed under the pin (using a lever) to change the feel of the action.

I’d imagine a key difference in the feel between the Kawai and Roland is that the latter has a lot of plastic contact points, whereas in the Kawai the wood and felt contact points are like on an acoustic.


On the GF2 the distance from the balance pin to the actual pivot point is rather small. The 24.1 cm are not where the balance pin is but the approximate location of the felt under the key from where the key pivots. Pictures here, including the ones that Bambers referred to.

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/Features/actions.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...l-key-and-pivot-lengths.html#Post2688852

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744132
06/13/18 10:43 AM
06/13/18 10:43 AM
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Thanks for the link. I’ve already seen these. 24.1 is the distance to the pin. I agree that the distance to the pivot is close.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744202
06/13/18 04:48 PM
06/13/18 04:48 PM
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Bambers Offline
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I see what you mean about the bottom of the key essentially rolls a bit however I've not noticed that to be significant in acoustics, if anything the contact point is behind the pin slightly at rest as the keys are typically angled 'up' slightly at that point and moves infront of it when the key is depressed, however it never leaves the felt pad that the key actually sits on.

Steinways accelerated action strikes me as 90% marketing blab if I'm honest. If it was that superior, everyone would be using it by now and they don't (it's from the 30s (ish?), well out of any patent).

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: WarrenY] #2776243
10/28/18 04:45 PM
10/28/18 04:45 PM
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varignet Offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenY
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does anyone have a compiled list of key lengths for pianos?


Glad that you asked. I dislike adjectives from people without real data, so I have been keeping a short list for myself from real measurements and from info gathered online.

Here you go. Pivot length and force ratio from fallboard+2cm (playing at back-of-key) to front-1cm (playing at front), assuming exposed white key is 15cm :

- Yamaha GHS, 17.25cm [3.82]
- Casio Privia, 18.75cm [3.08]
- Yamaha GH, GH3, GH3X, NW, NWX, 20cm [2.71]
- Kawai RHIII, 20cm [2.71]
- Roland PHA50, 22cm [2.33]
- Yamaha AvantGrand, 23.5cm [2.14]
- Kawai GF/GF2, 24.1cm [2.08]
- Kawai Millennium III, 26cm [1.92]

See how PHA50 is the longest folded action in the market. And, once you get close to a force ratio of 2, the difference becomes small and likely buried in key weight variations of different actions.

EDIT: I expect the pivot length of Yamaha's GrandTouch to be closer to PHA50 than GF2 but I don't know until someone takes apart a CLP675 or 685.


Amazing, thanks for sharing.
I saw posts about the RH3 being 20.5cm, also out of curiosity how did you work out the force ratio?
I've heard the vertical height of the pivot point would affect force ratio and the RH3 vertical pivot point was placed differently compared to other folded actions, sorry I lost my source.

Last edited by varignet; 10/28/18 04:46 PM.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2776273
10/28/18 06:02 PM
10/28/18 06:02 PM
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varignet Offline
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also I'd be curious to know the fatar tp40 pivot point, can't find that info online

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