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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688611
11/10/17 03:02 PM
11/10/17 03:02 PM
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I was happy to do the math, Gombessa. I checked the facts in the past, but many values I have forgotten and I was curious to settle the matter of the length :P

@alphonsus Another way to look at it, is that Roland provides a great action at a good price, while Yamaha holds back a decent action for the top of the range models, for marketing reasons. And even that action isn't as good as the PHA50, but this is of course, subjective. The only one I haven't played is the recent Grandtouch or whatever they call it, but reviews say that the touch is a little too grand, as in seriously overweighted even by the heaviest of grands standards. The NWX and their other actions are inferior from my subjective perspective. I feel they don't respond as well and are not as realistic. Others may feel differently, of course.

And Kawai does offer a slightly superior action, but only for models competing with the 605/lx7 and upwards. That is until recently, when they introduced the GFC, which I'm curious to try. However, they appear to have their problems as well, the wooden action having more variability in production quality and being in need of more maintenance / servicing. Or at least that's the picture I see on the forums, which is a worrying one, considering the practical lack of dealerships and services in Eastern Europe. I wouldn't want to pack and ship back a 70kg faulty CA67/78 or to ship it for repairing under warranty. There's no service or authorized technician for at least 500km,if not 1000.

So when I add it all up, I'm inclined to get another Roland, even though a CA67 for a furniture-style controller is tempting.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688633
11/10/17 04:31 PM
11/10/17 04:31 PM
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I’m confused about the objective of this thread...
Is the OP question this: “Is key pivot length really not that critical?” ?
It seems he had already made his idea “there are several other aspects of key actions that are important as well - e.g. how weighted they are etc. But, on key pivot length front (which is fairly critical IMHO) ...”. It feels quite contradictory to me, or the key pivot length is critical or there are several other aspects that are important.
My opinion is that you have to compare the whole thing together the way you would use it (sounds or vst included). Comparison of one single point like pivot could be done only with all the other aspects equal.
Last point: the Roland marketing strategy to put their best action not only on a few top models could be confusing, but don’t made pha50 less worthy although it could be perceived in this way by some customers...

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688638
11/10/17 04:50 PM
11/10/17 04:50 PM
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For some reason, the image I had posted previously comparing PHA-50 action to Kawai actions got deleted. So, I re-uploaded it again.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by alphonsus

Originally Posted by mcoll
...Roland is offering its top action at a lower price point and I can only see it as a good thing...


That's one (positive) way of looking at it. The other way is, that with Roland, the only upgrade you get when moving from ther low-tier $1600 piano to the top end $7000 piano is speakers and cabinet design. So you could say that while Kawai and Yamaha develop a top-end action for their top pianos, Roland shoves in their mid-tier action and focus on a shiny cabinet with lots of speakers in it.

Exactly - Roland seems to have standardized on a mid-tier action across a range of prouducts.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm with lolatu on this:
Originally Posted by lolatu
I would encourage OP to get some actual measurements before making claims about X being shorter than Y. For a start, the Roland key length from the end to the white keys to the fulcrum is 220 mm.
Lots of talk ... but, aside from his Roland/220mm, I see no numbers.

EDIT: I see a post here with a picture showing the RM3 Grand II action. It has a 7" (178 mm) pivot length. Much shorter than lolatu's Roland at 220 mm.

Numbers are hard to get at as manufacturers do not advertise it. But, the image shown above is a pretty solid quantitative data on relative pivot lengths of Kawai and PHA-50 actions.

Originally Posted by PianoVibe
I’m confused about the objective of this thread...
Is the OP question this: “Is key pivot length really not that critical?” ?
It seems he had already made his idea “there are several other aspects of key actions that are important as well - e.g. how weighted they are etc. But, on key pivot length front (which is fairly critical IMHO) ...”. It feels quite contradictory to me, or the key pivot length is critical or there are several other aspects that are important.

Yes, I have a particular opinion about the importance of key pivot length. However, I am interested in other opinions on this matter. The objective of this thread is to seek these opinions. More specifically, I have a chance to buy LX-17 at a really good price - and I started considering to purchase it as a second piano - but as I researched into it more, I got surprised by what I consider 'below the class' key action. Hence, I started this thread to seek others' opinions on PHA-50 action.

Originally Posted by mcoll
I was happy to do the math, Gombessa. I checked the facts in the past, but many values I have forgotten and I was curious to settle the matter of the length :P


That was quite interesting data - thanks for sharing!

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688641
11/10/17 05:02 PM
11/10/17 05:02 PM
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Osho, assuming the photo scale is correct, that Roland action is actually longer than the rm3 ii and also the new GF Compact (specifically for the white keys, where it matters most). It's not a "short pivot action" at all though, I guess your point is that you wish it was even longer (which is fine).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Gombessa] #2688643
11/10/17 05:06 PM
11/10/17 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Osho, assuming the photo scale is correct, that Roland action is actually longer than the rm3 ii and also the new GF Compact (specifically for the white keys, where it matters most). It's not a "short pivot action" at all though, I guess your point is that you wish it was even longer (which is fine).


Yes, the photo scale is correct. I wish it was comparable to GFII. I really like LX-17's speaker system though but the action is giving me a pause.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688645
11/10/17 05:14 PM
11/10/17 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Osho

Exactly - Roland seems to have standardized on a mid-tier action


Originally Posted by Osho

I got surprised by what I consider 'below the class' key action.


Based on what you classify pha50 as mid-tier? Pivot length only or something else? What are the parameters that set an action as top-tier? There is a minimum pivot length? Should keys be made of full wood? Which type of wood and how old and dryed out?
I’m just stressing the concept, don’t want to offende anyone, but we always end in talking about pivot length because is one of the few things measurable from a picture. But there are so many other things... quality of materials (some woods are worst than plastic), building quality, precision, felts, sensors....
We could not judge only with pivot length and full wood keys, sorry.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: PianoVibe] #2688653
11/10/17 05:57 PM
11/10/17 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoVibe
Originally Posted by Osho

Exactly - Roland seems to have standardized on a mid-tier action


Originally Posted by Osho

I got surprised by what I consider 'below the class' key action.


Based on what you classify pha50 as mid-tier? Pivot length only or something else? What are the parameters that set an action as top-tier? There is a minimum pivot length? Should keys be made of full wood? Which type of wood and how old and dryed out?
I’m just stressing the concept, don’t want to offende anyone, but we always end in talking about pivot length because is one of the few things measurable from a picture. But there are so many other things... quality of materials (some woods are worst than plastic), building quality, precision, felts, sensors....
We could not judge only with pivot length and full wood keys, sorry.


Based on how it felt when I tried it out in person - even before I looked into how the action actually looks. After being underwhelmed in person, I started looking into this a bit more online to see how exactly PHA-50 looks etc.

I don't mean to offend anyone - I am just sharing my personal opinion/preference - and I respect others' opinions and preferences on this matter as well.

Let me stress that I just want to learn more about these actions - rather than portray one as good vs. bad. In Kawai and Roland's case, we are actually lucky to have this level of information. I can't find any such information for Yamaha CLP-675 or CLP-685.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 11/10/17 05:58 PM.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688721
11/11/17 02:21 AM
11/11/17 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Osho
In Kawai and Roland's case, we are actually lucky to have this level of information.

This level of information = pivot lenght ? I don’t feel lucky to know about it, it’s not enough to me to make reasonable comparison between brands. Are there other information that I’m missing and that we are talking about here? Thanks [/quote]

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688731
11/11/17 04:21 AM
11/11/17 04:21 AM
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@correction of my post with regard to the levers: thanks for sorting that out. I'll have a look into this, as I've probably got something somewhere.

@actions: is the 'new' GrandTouch action in the CLP-685 the same action as the one in the old GranTouch piano's that were the predecessors of the current Avantgrands? I don't know when those piano's first came out, but I've found posts on the internet asking about them since at least 2002. So Yamaha is using a 15 year old action in a new piano. Way to go.... it might have a very long pivot, but the action itself gets bad reviews.

@PHA-50 vs. GF2: The GF2 probably has a longer pivot. As I said in Epee's thread (about acoustics vs. digitals with regard to teaching), the GF2 allows me to trill faster than the PHA-50, but when trilling at the same speed, the PHA-50 allows me to go softer.

@pivot lengths and action construction: in the end, I don't even care, as long as the action can keep up with what I'm trying to do, and it doesn't wreck good technique. Both the PHA-50 and GF2 accomplish that, so to me, they're just different, instead of one being better than the other.

@LX-17: if someone rejects an LX-17 on the basis for not having the longest pivot point in the non-hybrid world or not having a completely wooden action, that would be very foolish. There's more to a piano than having a full wooden action and a very long pivot. When the action is good enough (good feeling, and a pivot length that's 'long enough'), then you quickly hit a point of diminishing returns.


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Falsch] #2688738
11/11/17 04:58 AM
11/11/17 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Falsch
@actions: is the 'new' GrandTouch action in the CLP-685 the same action as the one in the old GranTouch piano's that were the predecessors of the current Avantgrands? I don't know when those piano's first came out, but I've found posts on the internet asking about them since at least 2002. So Yamaha is using a 15 year old action in a new piano. Way to go.... it might have a very long pivot, but the action itself gets bad reviews.


Totally different. The GranTouch pianos were the AvantGrand predecessor and the action is almost identical to the AG. The new 'GrandTouch' action in the Clavinova 675 and 685 is an entirely different thing.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688746
11/11/17 05:34 AM
11/11/17 05:34 AM
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I don't believe anyone here will tell you that the LX17 has the best action in its class. You will need to look elsewhere for that, mainly at the hybrid pianos from Yamaha (Avant Grand N2 or N3) or Kawai (Novus). But is it really a fair comparison when those pianos cost nearly twice as much?

Now, do consider the LX17 if you are looking for an overall well-rounded digital piano:

- A very good action with escapement feature. If you're used to an acoustical grand, obviously the escapement won't be so noticeable but it's definitely there.
- Amazing sound system for its console size that produces great bass, treble and volume that really envelopes the player and the listeners in the room -- really close to a larger acoustical grand.
- Limitless polyphony - compare with 256 tones of polyphony even on more expensive pianos.
- Bluetooth technology with Midi in/out and music sheet turning - many DP's still don't offer this.
- A vast number of sound adjustments to customize to your liking
- attractive minimalist design, and many more smaller fun features
- No maintenance whatsoever compared to a hybrid or let alone an acoustical. Depending where in the world you live, this can become a decisive reason to go with a a high-performance DP like the LX17.

It's the sum of all these that make the LX17 a strong contender in the choice of best digital pianos if you are in the market for one.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Chris Pringle] #2688748
11/11/17 06:10 AM
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@Chris Pringle. The LX7 is almost half the price of the LX17, so if you are mainly on headphones or find the speakers adequate enough for your room, then it is an even better bargain. And you forgot to mention the 10 year warrantee, which was an issue with me bearing in mind the problems I and others had with a certain other manufacturer.

But having said that, I sure people will take issue with you over the sound being close to a larger acoustical grand, and the number of adjustable sounds design, etc.

In the end you have to find one that suits your style of playing and enables you to get the most out of your instrument - within your budget.


Roland LX7

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: EssBrace] #2688753
11/11/17 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace


Totally different. The GranTouch pianos were the AvantGrand predecessor and the action is almost identical to the AG. The new 'GrandTouch' action in the Clavinova 675 and 685 is an entirely different thing.


That's confusing.

With regard to Yamaha, I haven't played the 685 yet, but I really, *really* disliked the 585. I've not spend a lot of time researching actions, with regards to pivots before I bought the LX-17. Somewhere (maybe in this thread even, can't remember) the 585 action was described as having a very high inertia, and then 'it just goes'. That's how I felt as well. The dynamics were very hard to control.

Last edited by Falsch; 11/11/17 06:41 AM.

Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Colin Miles] #2688756
11/11/17 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles


But having said that, I sure people will take issue with you over the sound being close to a larger acoustical grand, and the number of adjustable sounds design, etc..


Don't know if the LX-17 will come close to a grand sitting in the same room. Never had a chance to test something like that. What I can say with confidence is that it comes close to a large upright, namely a Kawai K-6 which sat beside it in the store.


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Falsch] #2688757
11/11/17 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Falsch
Originally Posted by EssBrace


Totally different. The GranTouch pianos were the AvantGrand predecessor and the action is almost identical to the AG. The new 'GrandTouch' action in the Clavinova 675 and 685 is an entirely different thing.


That's confusing.


What's confusing about it?

The GranTouch was a range of complete pianos from the 1990s. The GrandTouch is a DP action from 2017.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688764
11/11/17 08:13 AM
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Ah, the action is called "GrandTouch", while the piano's were "GranTouch". I thought they were both called "GranTouch", and that Yamaha had used the GranTouch action in the Clavinova's. I don't know if the GranTouch action is an actual grand action, or a close implementation. I never played one of those piano's.


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688769
11/11/17 09:00 AM
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It's an actual grand action, same as the AGs that followed. Keys were a bit shorter though and no key buttons over the pivots.

And yes the naming of all this can get a bit silly but there's a limited number of ways you can stick words like grand, feel, touch, hammer etc together smile

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688773
11/11/17 09:22 AM
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As far as performance and overall build quality goes, there’s not much of a difference between the Grantouch and the AvantGrand in terms of action. Personally, I’d prefer a Grantouch DGT7 over an N3. The former uses a real baby grand cabinet, and would probably suit Pianoteq better because it uses a conventional stereo system. The N3’s multi-channel system is optimal for the outdated sample on board, but not for an incoming stereo signal.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: EssBrace] #2688780
11/11/17 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Falsch
Originally Posted by EssBrace


Totally different. The GranTouch pianos were the AvantGrand predecessor and the action is almost identical to the AG. The new 'GrandTouch' action in the Clavinova 675 and 685 is an entirely different thing.


That's confusing.


What's confusing about it?

The GranTouch was a range of complete pianos from the 1990s. The GrandTouch is a DP action from 2017.


Well, I'm very confused indeed. GranTouch > GrandTouch looks like a mistake, or if not a mistake, a cunning piece of obscurantism.

What is confusing is whether these two 'different' trade marks are related. And if they are related, is it an ancestral relationship, a familial one or a kind of joint venture?

Bambers excuses Yamaha by conceding that:

there's a limited number of ways you can stick words like grand, feel, touch, hammer etc together

But is it beyond the wit of their marketing department to think of another three words out of the half billion or so available ones?

Authentic Action
Real Feel
Traditional Touch
Pivot Paradise
Harmony Heaven
I'm alright Jack
Arboreal Immersion

It's amazing how silly sounding names soon become second nature to say. And I'm sure others can do better if Yamaha need the help.

Last edited by toddy; 11/11/17 09:57 AM.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688789
11/11/17 10:36 AM
11/11/17 10:36 AM
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ARBOREAL IMMERSION! Excellent! smile

While we're at it ... how about claiming that the keysticks are made from wood taken from sustainable-growth tree farms (even if they came from old-growth forests laid bare by over-harvesting)?

And what about everything these days being described as "inspired by X", where X is something or someone well-thought of ... when in fact X played no role in the product whatsoever.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: MacMacMac] #2688802
11/11/17 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
And what about everything these days being described as "inspired by X", where X is something or someone well-thought of ... when in fact X played no role in the product whatsoever.


It's just more hogwash. They talk about 'marketing genius' and it sometimes happens, but it's very rare. Mostly it's hackneyed, tired old ideas, churned out without a thought. And this one you mention, 'by' such and such, is just more of the same old barnyard manure. Trying to pretend an individual, or big name, came up with the idea when it's just more mass production.

There was a TV advert back in the 1970s which did almost completely the opposite: it was for a line of Fiat (Uno?) which was 100% built by a production line of robots. And the commercial wallowed in the fact of there not being a human being in sight - just waltzing machines (with a famous Italian tenor aria as soundtrack). Seems they'll sell any old crap and we will buy any old crap.....so long as it keeps moving, noone notices.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: PianoVibe] #2688809
11/11/17 11:44 AM
11/11/17 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Pringle
I don't believe anyone here will tell you that the LX17 has the best action in its class. You will need to look elsewhere for that, mainly at the hybrid pianos from Yamaha (Avant Grand N2 or N3) or Kawai (Novus). But is it really a fair comparison when those pianos cost nearly twice as much?

I am comparing LX-17 to others in its price range such as Kawai CA-98 and Yamaha CLP-675/685 (and maybe N1 if one gets a good deal) - not to AvantGrand N2/N3 or Novus. They are comparable in price points. I think CA-98 and N1 have better actions - and LX-17 has better speaker/amps. The built-in Piano sounds are very different also (modelled vs. sampled etc.) I am sure there are several other differences as well - but these are the ones that matter the most to me personally.

Originally Posted by PianoVibe
Originally Posted by Osho
In Kawai and Roland's case, we are actually lucky to have this level of information.

This level of information = pivot lenght ? I don’t feel lucky to know about it, it’s not enough to me to make reasonable comparison between brands. Are there other information that I’m missing and that we are talking about here? Thanks

Not just the pivot length - but how the whole action is constructed, the 'model' of it so to speak. We don't always have this information (e.g. Yamaha CLP-685) and I find it useful.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: toddy] #2688824
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Originally Posted by toddy
Well, I'm very confused indeed.


Are you really confused? Or are you 'confused' in order to illustrate your point? If you're telling me you are (or were) unclear about the difference between an ancient Yamaha hybrid piano and a brand new Clavinova key action I'd be rather surprised to be honest.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688834
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OK - I do have an idea that the two actions are quite different but only because you told me so. When I first saw the name GrandTouch, of course I was wondering what its connection, if any, was with the same manufacturer's GranTouch from a previous high in the market piano.

It is extremely confusing, don't you think?


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: toddy] #2688835
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Originally Posted by toddy
OK - I do have an idea that the two actions are quite different but only because you told me so. When I first saw the name GrandTouch, of course I was wondering what its connection, if any, was with the same manufacturer's GranTouch from a previous high in the market piano.

It is extremely confusing, don't you think?


No. I think it could fairly be described as very very slightly confusing. For a moment or two until reasoning kicks in. The time lapse between the products; the different spelling of the term; the knowledge that the GranTouch piano had a real piano action in and was the predecessor to the AvantGrand and the absolute certainty that Yamaha would not equip a Clavinova with an action that would be the same as or extremely similar to the AG.

So, on the whole, not really confusing! Not to me anyway.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688838
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Well, I'm truly sorted out on the subject now. But, as you suggested, I was also making a point. And my point is this:

Why the blazes couldn't they have come up with a different, clearly distinct name for what is a clearly different system, rather than changing the name by one letter!? Then nobody - not even the slow witted - need have been confused.

Last edited by toddy; 11/11/17 04:19 PM.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688854
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Honestly...I think it's because nobody remembers the GranTouch (outside of niche forums like this one).


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688861
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At least they are spelling 'Grand' properly now. I suppose that's progress. Maybe in the name's next incarnation it might have a space between the two words, like this: Grand Touch

Then we'll have reached the promised land.

Last edited by toddy; 11/11/17 06:46 PM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688864
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I've added some hard numbers here that may help (or simply exacerbate) the discussion.

But honestly, assuming the PHA-50 is really 22cm, is there a huge difference between 22 and 24.1cm? Maybe. But while the "pivot length" is an easy one to quantify, there's so much more to the feel of a keyboard than solely pivot length, so I hope we can start exploring some of these.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688882
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Bring back Dewster! And get him to tally and track all the specs, including the keystick lengths and pivot lengths and hammer weights and everything else.

Ok, that seems far fetched. In which case we won't have much data.
And that brings us back to the traditional way of evaluating a piano: Try it for yourself!
Regardless of the numbers/measures, your likes and dislikes are what matter.

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