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Roland LX-17 action #2688323
11/09/17 02:56 PM
11/09/17 02:56 PM
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Osho Online content OP
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I was recently taking a look at the Ronald LX-17 action:

[Linked Image]

I noticed that the key pivot length is really short.

I have seen several discussions in this forum on how key pivot length is really critical to give a grand piano action feel - I am surprised that Roland has chosen to use such a really short key pivot length.

I have tried LX-17 in person - and I thought that while the action was decent, I didn't really think it was really fitting a piano worth $7000 MSRP (and ~$5k/$6k street price). It is supposed to have the escapement feature - which I could never feel. I could definitely feel escapement in the Yamaha AvantGrand N2 and N3.

On the other hand, I have seem some people who have LX-17 report how wonderful the action is - including how close to grand piano action it feels. For example, this 'reviewer'.

https://youtu.be/fNoNzlydylU?t=1m51s

What gives? Is key pivot length really not that critical?

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688330
11/09/17 03:05 PM
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Just curious, why do you think the pivot length is short, and what is that in comparison to?

Don't forget, the pivot on most plastic actions is at the very end of the key, where the hinge sits. Some wooden key actions utilize a "see saw" balance rail as on acoustic pianos, which results in a noticeably longer key length, but the pivot should be measured from the rail.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688333
11/09/17 03:19 PM
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Apparently it's the same as in PHA4 Premium/Concert:

[Linked Image]

(Image source: http://www.cndzq.com/bbs/thread-366722-1-1.html)

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688334
11/09/17 03:31 PM
11/09/17 03:31 PM
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I wonder if those pieces of wood do make any difference (other than for those thet believe in marketing BS).

Last edited by EVC2017; 11/09/17 03:32 PM.

Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Yamaha HS7 monitors, AKG K99 phones.
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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688335
11/09/17 03:31 PM
11/09/17 03:31 PM
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I think you're confusing the sort of stability pin Roland added to the pha 50 action to the pivot.

The pivot length is certainly no kawai grand feel, but it's long enough I think and a little longer I believe than the gh3/nwx series Yamaha use in most of the CLP series barring the grand touch actions in the 675/685.

The importance of pivot length is partly subjective and depends on the users thumb: finger length ratio and playing style, if you don't, or don't have to play deep into the keys it's not something that matters so much.

With escapement, it depends what you're after, it is an imperfection after all, work on grand piano actions has sought to minimise the notch feel. It's certainly on the subtle end with the pha50 but Roland generally seem more interested in making what they see as a good piano rather than replicating all the warts.

If the need is for practice for an acoustic, particularly less well regulated ones, then pha50 is not ideal but as an overall method of control I think it's pretty decent. It's smooth, fast and responsive, easy to play both soft and loud and decently weighted. Personally as far as digital actions go I slightly prefer grand feel 2 but I'd take pha50 long before the ones in the CLP series (barring grand touch which I've yet to try).

As for the n2/n3, they're basically grand piano actions so, oddly, will feel just like a Yamaha grand! They're not really comparable, the Avantgrand and now novus sit in a different market segment.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Gombessa] #2688336
11/09/17 03:40 PM
11/09/17 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Just curious, why do you think the pivot length is short, and what is that in comparison to?


The distance from the end of the key (where fingers typically are) to the point where the key is pivoted is much shorter than, let's say in Kawai digital actions. For example compare it to the picture in this thread.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: EVC2017] #2688337
11/09/17 03:42 PM
11/09/17 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by EVC2017
I wonder if those pieces of wood do make any difference (other than for those thet believe in marketing BS).


I wonder that too. I think it is pure marketing stunt - so when one presses the keys, the adjacent keys are shown as wooden - giving the same look as what you would normally get in acoustic pianos with full wooden keys.

When I was at the local Roland dealer, the sales guy made a big deal about the little wooden pieces added in the top-end Roland action and asked me "if I can feel the wood when playing LX-17". I clearly could not.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Bambers] #2688338
11/09/17 04:01 PM
11/09/17 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
I think you're confusing the sort of stability pin Roland added to the pha 50 action to the pivot.

The pivot length is certainly no kawai grand feel, but it's long enough I think and a little longer I believe than the gh3/nwx series Yamaha use in most of the CLP series barring the grand touch actions in the 675/685.


I don't think I am confusing it with the stability pin. I am talking about the distance between the Fulcrum to the end of the key (Key tip). For example, this is Yamaha Clavinova (taken from CLP-685 specs)

[Linked Image]

You could see that Key tip to fulcrum distance in LX-17 is significantly shorter than Clavinova (and also Kawai Grand Feel actions - some of which are even longer than Clavinova).

Originally Posted by Bambers

The importance of pivot length is partly subjective and depends on the users thumb: finger length ratio and playing style, if you don't, or don't have to play deep into the keys it's not something that matters so much.


I have seen several strong opinions here in forums that the key pivot length is critical etc. etc. I wonder how subjective it really is.

Originally Posted by Bambers

With escapement, it depends what you're after, it is an imperfection after all, work on grand piano actions has sought to minimise the notch feel. It's certainly on the subtle end with the pha50 but Roland generally seem more interested in making what they see as a good piano rather than replicating all the warts.


I am after getting to feel when the key is pressed down enough - that helps for fast repeats or for soft playing.

Originally Posted by Bambers

As for the n2/n3, they're basically grand piano actions so, oddly, will feel just like a Yamaha grand! They're not really comparable, the Avantgrand and now novus sit in a different market segment.


That's a fair point - but N1/NU1 street price is in the same range as LX-17. And, I am hoping that NV10's street price will be within $1k range of LX-17. If that's the case, the really short pivot key length on LX-17 seems fairly disadvantageous for LX-17.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688375
11/09/17 06:30 PM
11/09/17 06:30 PM
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I would encourage OP to get some actual measurements before making claims about X being shorter than Y.

For a start, the Roland key length from the end to the white keys to the fulcrum is 220 mm.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688381
11/09/17 06:39 PM
11/09/17 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Osho

The distance from the end of the key (where fingers typically are) to the point where the key is pivoted is much shorter than, let's say in Kawai digital actions. For example compare it to the picture in this thread.


Yeah, I created that picture wink But still, I can't see how you can tell from the PHA-50 pictures how long the pivot is? Or how long you think they SHOULD be? IIRC, they're actually quite long for a plastic action, and I think they're longer than the pivots in the RM3 II Grand action. They're probably not the *longest* out there, with the AvantGrands, Grand Feels, Bechstein Hybrids and GrandTouches of the world, but do they need to be, for the sake of nothing else? I think the more important question is how the action plays and feels, and I've never had an issue with Roland's long-pivot (PHA-IV Concert, PHA-50) actions myself.

Originally Posted by Osho
That's a fair point - but N1/NU1 street price is in the same range as LX-17. And, I am hoping that NV10's street price will be within $1k range of LX-17. If that's the case, the really short pivot key length on LX-17 seems fairly disadvantageous for LX-17.


Interesting to mention the NU1. That DP actually uses an incredibly short pivot length, and it feels far shorter than most digitals I've played. When I play the NU1, I can definitely feel a big difference in touchweight required at the back of the keys.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688386
11/09/17 06:59 PM
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Are we talking about who has the longest pivot, again?

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688390
11/09/17 07:17 PM
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Am I wrong or the OP thinks those triangular shaped apendices are the pivot points of the keys? From the figures it is clear to me they push the hammers. The pivot point is at the keys end. And as pointed out above, they have a fairly even weight from the key front to rear.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Yamaha HS7 monitors, AKG K99 phones.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: EVC2017] #2688397
11/09/17 08:22 PM
11/09/17 08:22 PM
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I'd be surprised if he did think that: then quite often you would actually need to pull the black keys rather than push.

For some reason, I find the perspective of this picture misleading. Maybe because the whole outer part is plastic, so there is no clear end of the exposed part of the closest white key.

Last edited by winnyec; 11/10/17 04:48 AM.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688408
11/09/17 09:20 PM
11/09/17 09:20 PM
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Osho Online content OP
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Let me try to clear the confusion about my understanding.

I have marked where I think the pivot is in the following picture.

[Linked Image]

Length B is the visible part of the key - I think this length is pretty much the same across most pianos.

My point is that Length A is very short - roughly 1/3rd of length B - it matches more to the picture above where it says "Key tip close to the fulcrum". For a piano with $7k MSRP - I find this rather surprising.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 11/09/17 09:48 PM.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688410
11/09/17 09:27 PM
11/09/17 09:27 PM
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BTW, this official video confirms (0:47 to 1:00) that the pivot is where it was mentioned in the image above.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688417
11/09/17 09:53 PM
11/09/17 09:53 PM
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This is a different sort of action.

In a grand piano, as you press the key down at your side, the other side goes up. It acts as a lever, and the longer it is, the more power you have to raise the hammer _by lifting it from below_.

This action presses downward onto the end of the hammer with that pin you see in the middle in the photo's in the post by clothearednincompo. So it's exactly the other way around: the closer you are to that pin when pressing the key, the more power you can exert to raise the hammer by _pressing down on it's rear end_.

Imagine if you'd make the Roland key really long, with that pin really far away, you'd _lose_ more and more downard force as the key gets longer.

On the Kawai GF2, your most powerful depression point is right at the beginning of the key at your end, and the power decreases when you move towards the fallboard. On the Roland action, your most powerful point of depression is right above that pin, and it's somewhat less at the beginning or the end.

This is possibly the reason why the GF2 action can trill faster than the PHA-50 (more power and speed when at the beginning of the key), but the PHA-50 has more control over dynamics (because you're closer to the actual depression point, and is thus easier to control). Try to tap something very softly with holding a 4 inch stick at one end. Then try to tap something very softly using a 40 inch stick. You'll notice the shorter stick is easier to control. (If it's not really clear, just use a 400 inch stick. You'll probably break the thing you're trying to tap.)

So, I see these keyboards as different actions, both very well done, both OK to play high-level piano repertoire, but they both have advantages and disadvantages, just like everything else.

Last edited by Falsch; 11/09/17 09:59 PM.

Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688420
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by EVC2017
I wonder if those pieces of wood do make any difference (other than for those thet believe in marketing BS).


I wonder that too. I think it is pure marketing stunt - so when one presses the keys, the adjacent keys are shown as wooden - giving the same look as what you would normally get in acoustic pianos with full wooden keys.

When I was at the local Roland dealer, the sales guy made a big deal about the little wooden pieces added in the top-end Roland action and asked me "if I can feel the wood when playing LX-17". I clearly could not.

Osho


I definitely do feel a huge difference between my MP7 with plastic keys and the LX-17 keys with wooden sides. The keys just feel nicer when sliding into the keys and back again. That's all. Wood has the advantage that it feels nicer, but it can warp. A plastic key does not warp. So I think Roland made the correct choice to create a plastic key with wooden feeling.

Kawai as caught quite some flack when they introduced their ABS/Carbon parts on their action, but I think it was genius. Exactly that part of the action is most affected by warping.

I don't care if they make the keys from wood, plastic, or make parts of it from ABS/Carbon, or concrete... as long as it plays nice and doesn't need too much (or any) maintenance.


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688430
11/09/17 11:22 PM
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How do you know the end of the wood panel is where the fall board starts? You would think the key "ends" forward of that spot so the wood seems to continue into the interior of the chassis.
Similarity how do you know that is where the black key lines up with the white?

Also, how do you know that image is isometric? At a "normal" FOV rendering, the farther the object gets from the camera the more compressed it appears.

In any case I would compare the pivot to other plastic actions. Are you sure it is really shorter?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Falsch] #2688466
11/10/17 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Falsch
This is a different sort of action.

In a grand piano, as you press the key down at your side, the other side goes up. It acts as a lever, and the longer it is, the more power you have to raise the hammer _by lifting it from below_.

This action presses downward onto the end of the hammer with that pin you see in the middle in the photo's in the post by clothearednincompo. So it's exactly the other way around: the closer you are to that pin when pressing the key, the more power you can exert to raise the hammer by _pressing down on it's rear end_.

Imagine if you'd make the Roland key really long, with that pin really far away, you'd _lose_ more and more downard force as the key gets longer.

On the Kawai GF2, your most powerful depression point is right at the beginning of the key at your end, and the power decreases when you move towards the fallboard. On the Roland action, your most powerful point of depression is right above that pin, and it's somewhat less at the beginning or the end.

Both are levers actually, and if the key is rigid it doesn't matter which side of the fulcrum (pivot) the load point is, as far as force multiplication is concerned. The most powerful depression point will be the end of the key in both cases. (It's basically the difference between pliers and nutcrackers.)

If the key is not rigid, then it could matter because some of the effort will go into flexing the key rather than activating the hammer. I wonder if the wood added to PHA-50 is meant to increase the rigidity of the key (or at least to make it more piano-like).


Kawai CA 78 / Sennheiser HD 559
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688471
11/10/17 02:46 AM
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@Falsch, where the hammer is connected to the key doesn't affect the distribution of the force needed to depress it with regards to where you press. The key is a lever, and the needed force increases the more you approach the pivot. At the tip of the key it will always be lowest and at the base it will always be highest.
L.E: while I was looking for pictures and measuring pivots Alophaneko already explained this point in detail.

On topic -
As some have already pointed out, the oblique perspective induces a wrong impression. You need a perfect side view, then you can even calculate the pivot length based on the picture and known aproximate length of the visible white part.

For the Roland premium action (PHA4 premium, concert, PHA50) the length of the key is 22cm, which is superior to most actions on the market, except the GF, GF2, the new CLP675/685 action and those in the avangrands (except the NU1 which is really short at around 19-20, don't remember exactly).

The Yamaha GH, GH3x, NW, NWx are around 21.5.
Also, I don't appreciate how yamaha's marketing materials show you a pivot length of almost 30cm for "the clavinova piano" in a sketch on a CLP535 page:
https://www.reidys.com/pr/keyboards-and-digital-pianos/yamaha-clavinova-clp535-black-walnut-17895/
I can't find any picture of the CLP675/685 grandtouch action, but from materials seen a while ago, I expect it to be on par with Kawai's GF length-wise - and only length-wise! It's not receiving the best of reviews.
The RH3 in Kawais is also around 20.5.
The RM3-2 in VPC1, CA17 is 19cm.
The new GF-C is ~21.5cm.
The GF is the longest of which I know the length for certain at ~25cm.
The NU1 is really short, I once saw a model in a shop, but I don't remember the precise number. However, it was around 19-20cm.
The Casio-Bechstein key length isn't as long as people want to believe, at exactly the same 22cm of the Roland PHA top actions.
The avangrands N1, N2, N3 actions are ~23cm, but it's hard to find a good picture. However, there's a very small margin of error.
For the Kawai Novus NV10 it's hard to find a good picture, but the pivot length is ~25.5-26cm.

So, expept hybrids, Kawai GF, Yamaha grantouch, the PHA50 pivot point is on the long side. The grantouch receives quite a few negative reviews because of the weight and feel. That only leaves the Kawai GF action that is longer.
Also, the majority of uprights and some baby grands have shorter pivots than this. I'm quite pleased with the keylength of the PHA actions, to the point where I don't consider it hindering, as with shorter ones.
I wouldn't mind the longer GF keys, but they come with troubles of their own.

As for the feel of the PHA50 with the wood - I think it helps give the keys a little more inertia + the marketing bonus points. Maybe they also vibrate a little more due to the sound, but that may be just an impression due to the bigger sound system of what I've tested.
Speaking of which, just this weekend I went and tested the PHA50 (in an LX7) vs the PHA4 premium (HP504) side by side, because I'm preparing to move and I'm considering selling my HP504 and upgrading to an HP601 or 603, instead of transporting it. I only use it with VSTs, so I don't really care about the sounds.
The difference is really hard to discern, they feel almost identical, maybe with a little more solid and firmer keypress on the PHA50. But in a blind test, connected to the same sound engine I think I'd be really hard-pressed to tell which is which.

Last edited by mcoll; 11/10/17 02:48 AM.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688497
11/10/17 06:34 AM
11/10/17 06:34 AM
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I found a perfect side view of PHA-50 in this video at 30s. I added this to the excellent picture Gombessa had created comparing Kawai actions.

[Linked Image]

Basically, the pivot length is comparable to Grand Feel Compact, found in CA-48, which sells at Thomann for $1839 right now.

LX-17 is competing against CA-98 in the price range - which is Grand Feel II in the picture below.

I can't find out any such information about CLP-685 - or else it would be interesting to compare as well.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: mcoll] #2688498
11/10/17 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Osho

I don't think I am confusing it with the stability pin. I am talking about the distance between the Fulcrum to the end of the key (Key tip). For example, this is Yamaha Clavinova (taken from CLP-685 specs)

<image snipped>

You could see that Key tip to fulcrum distance in LX-17 is significantly shorter than Clavinova (and also Kawai Grand Feel actions - some of which are even longer than Clavinova).



Ok, apologies, turns out you were getting confused by where the back of the key was instead. smile The white surface typically extends back so that you don't see bare wood or similar when the key is depressed. If eyeballing from nekkid actions, a better indication is the back of the raised part of the the black keys, the fallboard will typically be placed a mm or two back from this. Re the clavinovas, the much longer grandtouch action is only found in the clp 685 and 675, the rest of the 6x5s and the whole 5x5 series have actions that are a little shorter than roland's pha50. Also I'm not sure I'd trust that picture, grandtouch is certainly long but yamaha's marketing is often the 'worst' of the three big names, so until someone dismantles it and posts the photos, I'm considering it as having white keys longer than the grandfeels and unknown on the blacks.

Quote

I have seen several strong opinions here in forums that the key pivot length is critical etc. etc. I wonder how subjective it really is.


I think it depends on who's marketing it wink. I say that as someone who really dislikes playing on short pivots, but I know others don't even notice. Much comes down to playing style and hand geometry. I find that if I have to play on a very short pivot action such as yamaha GHS (found on P115 etc) my arpeggios in black note heavy keys become very uneven. To fish out a well known example, the middle part of claire de lune, left hand Db2, Ab2, Db3, F3. If I play that on something like GHS without having had time to adapt, the Ab2 will be late, and once I'm used to it and get the playing even. If I then go back to a (opinion) not dreadful action, the Ab2 will be early as I'll have gotten used to pressing that down with what had been the much higher required force.

Quote

I am after getting to feel when the key is pressed down enough - that helps for fast repeats or for soft playing.


I've always considered that to be marketing rubbish for digitals, you never see that written on marketing for acoustics! If the escapement can be felt in normal play I'd consider the piano in need of some TLC/maintenance. Where I've found escapement to be important is having to work around it. A consistent issue I had learning as a child was that the majority of my practice was done on an upright (where while the escapement of course exists, the geometry of the jack/hammer butt means it is rarely perceptible and certainly nowhere near how it is in a grand) while my tutor had a couple of grands and my exams usually were on grands as well. The tricky bit was soft playing, becasue I was not used to the escapement it could 'catch' a soft keypress entirely and result in non sounding notes. I'd personally consider escapement to be a hindrance to soft playing, not a help. Hence my point that it's good for practising for an acoustic. If the aim is to make a good keyboard it is rather undesirable, it's one of those things, like the difference in weight between bass and treble that acoustic piano makers have actually sought to eliminate over the decades that is then taken and touted as a good thing™ in a digital!

Quote
That's a fair point - but N1/NU1 street price is in the same range as LX-17. And, I am hoping that NV10's street price will be within $1k range of LX-17. If that's the case, the really short pivot key length on LX-17 seems fairly disadvantageous for LX-17.

Osho


Hmm, well the NU1(x), as mcoll, points out, is horribly short, on my own personal scale that action actually goes down the bottom with GHS in the 'junk' category. The N1, in the UK, retails for £6000, the LX17 for £4,400, the clp685 for £3,600 (for the polished), and the NU1X for £4,000. The N1 is really a step above pricewise and it's also not an 'X' so worth noting that the tone generation in it is pretty ancient by digital piano standards, I suspect the speaker system on the LX17 is at least equal and may well be superior as it is rather decent. As someone who is fussy on pivots, I do find that PHA50 is 'long enough', I really don't have a problem adapting to playing on that or any other roland action of the same length. All in all I find it a pretty nice action, I'd consider it superior to the GH3/NWX series from yamaha which seem to have this odd initial high resistance followed by the key just 'going' which makes controlling dynamics annoying.

Originally Posted by mcoll

<pivot lengths>


Probably worth noting that on all the non folded actions, the black keys are offset by ~2cm which does actually make a fairly reasonable difference, i find it's the blacks I really struggle with on e.g. GHS

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Falsch] #2688500
11/10/17 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Falsch
This is a different sort of action.

In a grand piano, as you press the key down at your side, the other side goes up. It acts as a lever, and the longer it is, the more power you have to raise the hammer _by lifting it from below_.

This action presses downward onto the end of the hammer with that pin you see in the middle in the photo's in the post by clothearednincompo. So it's exactly the other way around: the closer you are to that pin when pressing the key, the more power you can exert to raise the hammer by _pressing down on it's rear end_.

In either of these designs (whether the hammer is after the pivot point or below the key - the fact remains the same that the longer the key pivot length is, the easier it is to play deeper into the key (i.e. closer to the fall board). Roland's own explanation of digital piano key actions mentions this:

Quote
The total length of a key is also important. When we say total, we mean including the bit you can’t see. The longer the total length, the further back you can have the pivot point which makes it easier to play and gives more expression when playing the white keys right up in between the black notes. This will be essential as you get more advanced.


Same point repeated by Roland in this video at 2:00.

Now, there are several other aspects of key actions that are important as well - e.g. how weighted they are etc. But, on key pivot length front (which is fairly critical IMHO) - Roland is falling behind the comparable top-end DP from Kawai. It is hard to say anything about Yamaha as one cannot find similar images of their latest CLP-675 or CLP-685 actions.

Osho


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Bambers] #2688502
11/10/17 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
Originally Posted by Osho

I don't think I am confusing it with the stability pin. I am talking about the distance between the Fulcrum to the end of the key (Key tip). For example, this is Yamaha Clavinova (taken from CLP-685 specs)

<image snipped>

You could see that Key tip to fulcrum distance in LX-17 is significantly shorter than Clavinova (and also Kawai Grand Feel actions - some of which are even longer than Clavinova).



Ok, apologies, turns out you were getting confused by where the back of the key was instead. smile The white surface typically extends back so that you don't see bare wood or similar when the key is depressed. If eyeballing from nekkid actions, a better indication is the back of the raised part of the the black keys, the fallboard will typically be placed a mm or two back from this. Re the clavinovas, the much longer grandtouch action is only found in the clp 685 and 675, the rest of the 6x5s and the whole 5x5 series have actions that are a little shorter than roland's pha50. Also I'm not sure I'd trust that picture, grandtouch is certainly long but yamaha's marketing is often the 'worst' of the three big names, so until someone dismantles it and posts the photos, I'm considering it as having white keys longer than the grandfeels and unknown on the blacks.


The picture I posted above comparing PHA-50's side view to Kawai actions clears all the confusion I believe.


Originally Posted by Bambers

Quote

I have seen several strong opinions here in forums that the key pivot length is critical etc. etc. I wonder how subjective it really is.


I think it depends on who's marketing it wink. I say that as someone who really dislikes playing on short pivots, but I know others don't even notice. Much comes down to playing style and hand geometry. I find that if I have to play on a very short pivot action such as yamaha GHS (found on P115 etc) my arpeggios in black note heavy keys become very uneven. To fish out a well known example, the middle part of claire de lune, left hand Db2, Ab2, Db3, F3. If I play that on something like GHS without having had time to adapt, the Ab2 will be late, and once I'm used to it and get the playing even. If I then go back to a (opinion) not dreadful action, the Ab2 will be early as I'll have gotten used to pressing that down with what had been the much higher required force.


That's an interesting observation. For me personally, the short key pivot length is trouble-some when playing on white keys in between the black keys - for example F# minor chord - with F#, A and C# notes - the finger pressing down A is in between G# and Bb - and pretty close to the fall board. The shorter the key pivot length is, the harder it is for me to control how loud/soft I play such fingerings.

Osho


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Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688504
11/10/17 07:09 AM
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So we obviously need different pianos with different actions and different sounds for different people!


Roland LX7

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688505
11/10/17 07:18 AM
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Ahh Colin Miles just beat me to it. I was going to suggest that a solution to Osho's problems could be to avoid buying an LX17, and perhaps get a Kawai CA ** instead, since they are better in terms of pivot to end distance.


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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688509
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@Bambers, thank you for adding that piece of information. It is indeed relevant that the blacks are offset on a number of keys. I thought about mentioning it, but I forgot during the time spent estimating different pivot lengths smile

@osho - if you want to make the comparison, you would be more right to compare the CA48 to the HP601, which has Roland's top action at 1660$ and also a better sound engine. To get the GF2 you have to step up to the CA67 / 78, which is 2800$

Yes, all in all, maybe the GF2 is slightly superior, but it comes with it's own problems and I'm actively trying to decide if I should go for a CA67 for a midi-controller or a HP601. I'll open a topic on the subject one of these days. But as far as I'm concerned, Roland is offering its top action at a lower price point and I can only see it as a good thing.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2688513
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Thx mcoll for such a detailed and data-filled response BTW. It's great to have this info in one place (even if some of it is an estimate).

And your impressions of the pha-50 versus the pha-4 concert was exactly the same as mine. When the fp-90 and hp series came out I recall a lot of people who hasn't even laid hands on it yet simply declare that it is the second best dp action (going so far as to slot it just under the GF2 and above the GF, based completely on...idk?) I was really curious to try it and see how it has changed. When I finally got a chance to do so with an LX-7 and later an RD-2000, the most surprising thing was how indistinguishable it was from a new pha-iv concert. I mean really, both agree great actions, but they aren't very different from each other at all (which I would imagine is exactly what Roland wanted). Even an Ivory feel-G feels so much more unmistakeably like a PHA-50 than any other manufacturers' actions do, there is a "Roland dna" as there is with Yamaha, Kawai, etc.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: mcoll] #2688515
11/10/17 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Osho
...while the action was decent, I didn't really think it was really fitting a piano worth $7000 MSRP (and ~$5k/$6k street price)....


Originally Posted by Osho
...Basically, the pivot length is comparable to Grand Feel Compact, found in CA-48, which sells at Thomann for $1839 right now.

LX-17 is competing against CA-98 in the price range -...


You can get the same action as the LX17 (PHA-50) for $1600 in the HP601. So that price compares well with the Kawai Ca48.

Originally Posted by mcoll
...Roland is offering its top action at a lower price point and I can only see it as a good thing...


That's one (positive) way of looking at it. The other way is, that with Roland, the only upgrade you get when moving from ther low-tier $1600 piano to the top end $7000 piano is speakers and cabinet design. So you could say that while Kawai and Yamaha develop a top-end action for their top pianos, Roland shoves in their mid-tier action and focus on a shiny cabinet with lots of speakers in it.


Adult beginner, playing since October 2016
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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: lolatu] #2688528
11/10/17 10:51 AM
11/10/17 10:51 AM
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I'm with lolatu on this:
Originally Posted by lolatu
I would encourage OP to get some actual measurements before making claims about X being shorter than Y. For a start, the Roland key length from the end to the white keys to the fulcrum is 220 mm.
Lots of talk ... but, aside from his Roland/220mm, I see no numbers.

EDIT: I see a post here with a picture showing the RM3 Grand II action. It has a 7" (178 mm) pivot length. Much shorter than lolatu's Roland at 220 mm.

Also, I think this statement by Falsch is false.
Sentence one is true. Sentence two is not.
Originally Posted by Falsch
This action presses downward onto the end of the hammer with that pin you see in the middle in the photo's in the post by clothearednincompo.
... the closer you are to that pin when pressing the key, the more power you can exert to raise the hammer by _pressing down on it's rear end_.

As for the marketing hype ... I looked at that Kawai video. At 1:38 we hear about their "multi-channel acoustic projection system". smile
I like their pianos, but their hype/BS is over-the-top.

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