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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: karvala] #2688970
11/12/17 01:02 PM
11/12/17 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
I'd be up to the challenge of trying to make that indicated tempo for Op. 27/2 work. I play it very much on the fast side anyway. It means that you have to be quiet in movement, so that it doesn't come off as agitated, and to be flexible with tempo. Just because there is a metronome marking doesn't mean that you should be able to turn on the metronome and follow along from beginning to end.. not in a piece that is highly vocally inspired, and has a lot of shifts in mood and texture.


Well if you can pull it off, I'd be hugely impressed and certainly very interested to hear it. I had a go myself yesterday out of curiosity more than anything, and there's absolutely no way I can get it to work at that tempo. The detail becomes flat, the nuance is lost and the whole thing sounds rushed. That could well be a limitation of my playing, so if you (or anyone else) can make it sound even somewhat convincing at the original tempo, I'd be very curious to hear it.


It's going to lose nuance for sure, but what it should gain is the integrity of the line. If you try to plan it the same way that you would at 80 to an eighth note, of course it's going to sound rushed and busy. Increasing the tempo, you have to become more feline, careful with the touch and develop longer lines. I think it can be done, but I'm under no illusions that it will be easy or that it will work the first time I sit down with it.

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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: jeffreyjones] #2689108
11/13/17 07:08 AM
11/13/17 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
I'd be up to the challenge of trying to make that indicated tempo for Op. 27/2 work. I play it very much on the fast side anyway. It means that you have to be quiet in movement, so that it doesn't come off as agitated, and to be flexible with tempo. Just because there is a metronome marking doesn't mean that you should be able to turn on the metronome and follow along from beginning to end.. not in a piece that is highly vocally inspired, and has a lot of shifts in mood and texture.

Some of us discussed the tempo of this nocturne a few years ago on TP. Although there are a few tempi in Chopin that are significantly faster than the way they are usually performed, I think that the metronome mark for Op. 27/2 really stands out. I have read quite a lot about Chopin as a teacher but I have never read that he used a metronome when teaching his works, or discussed his metronome marks with anyone. I also believe that Op. 27/2 is the latest work that Chopin gave a metronome mark, which suggests that sometime soon after he no longer believed it was worthwhile to designate a metronome mark for his published works. My speculation is that Chopin made a mistake when writing the metronome mark for Op. 27/2. The scenario I envisage is that the metronome marks for Op. 27 were a last-minute addition before he sent his autograph to his publisher. He tests the pieces out with his metronome and decides on 84 quarter notes per minute for No. 1 and 100 eighth notes per minute for No. 2. At the last moment he decides to halve the numbers and writes down 42 half measures = half notes per minute for No. 1 and 50 half measures = dotted quarter notes for No. 2 before sending them off, not paying attention to the triple meter in No. 2.

The above is just a theory with no solid evidence, but I believe it is plausible. Op. 27/2 was an advanced work for its time, and I do not know how many music-lovers owned a metronome in those days. If someone had published a relatively easy piano solo piece in the 1870s or 1880s marked Lento sostenuto but with a surprisingly fast metronome mark, I expect it would have become a topic of discussion, and that a friend or fellow composer might politely query it. In my opinion, the published metronome mark for Op. 27/2 does not make sense musically, but I feel that 100 eighth notes per minute is an apt tempo for Op. 27/2 and also happens to match the same metronome mark given to Op. 10/3, which is marked Lento ma non troppo compared to the Lento sostenuto of Op. 27/2.


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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Julian_] #2689230
11/13/17 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Julian_
My speculation is that Chopin made a mistake when writing the metronome mark for Op. 27/2.

He did not.

The development of the grand piano (greatly improved sustaining capabilities) since Chopin's day has enabled modern pianists to play these pieces at almost absurdly luxurious, dragging tempi. What Chopin marked makes much more musical sense.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Polyphonist] #2689350
11/14/17 03:32 AM
11/14/17 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Julian_
My speculation is that Chopin made a mistake when writing the metronome mark for Op. 27/2.

He did not.

The development of the grand piano (greatly improved sustaining capabilities) since Chopin's day has enabled modern pianists to play these pieces at almost absurdly luxurious, dragging tempi. What Chopin marked makes much more musical sense.


I agree with that wholeheartedly. The technological advances in the piano that happened in the 19th century alone were profound, and it's important to remember that Chopin's instruments had different qualities to offer. Take something like Beethoven's C minor sonata No. 5, Op. 10 No. 1. The slow movement is marked Adagio, but it's common to perform it at an extremely broad tempo, such that the long notes last for an eternity. Then I tried that on a period piano from Beethoven's time. It sounded like complete nonsense - the melodic line didn't carry through at all. A faster tempo was an absolute given.

There's also the widespread availability of recordings - every student knows what Arrau, Richter, and Perahia sound like. And they were/are well known for good reason, but that doesn't mean we all have to play the music the same way as they did. If my life's goal was simply to play the same music that Rubinstein did, in the same way, I'm sure people would be happy with it but it wouldn't be original and I wouldn't be remembered the way that Rubinstein is.

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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2689354
11/14/17 03:47 AM
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Composers don't always have the perfect tempo in their mind. They experiment and find something that works. Dvorak's famous Largo started out as a Andante, it was crossed out in the manuscript. Kovarik reports it like this:

Originally Posted by Kovarik 100 years ago
"The master commented that Seidl [when he had a chance to play through the score on the piano] has 'quite drawn out' the introduction to the first movement, and also the second movement—then he paused in silence—but after a while he added:—"but it is much better in this way!" And when we reached home, he took his own score, prescribed a slower Metronome for th introduction of the first movement—in the second movement he crossed out 'larghetto' and prescribed 'Largo!"


So it shouldn't be assumed that composers have infallibly deep understanding of their own conceptions: instead, we should play what sounds good.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Polyphonist] #2689368
11/14/17 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Julian_
My speculation is that Chopin made a mistake when writing the metronome mark for Op. 27/2.

He did not.

The development of the grand piano (greatly improved sustaining capabilities) since Chopin's day has enabled modern pianists to play these pieces at almost absurdly luxurious, dragging tempi. What Chopin marked makes much more musical sense.

If you feel that 150 eighth notes per minute makes more musical sense than 100 eighth notes per minute when playing Op. 27/2, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I wasn't debating the appropriateness of Chopin's metronome marks in general (though I am not alone in noting that a Presto mazurka or two seem almost unplayable at the published metronome mark, at least on a modern piano). I too am not a fan of the modern tendency towards very slow tempi, especially in slower pieces and movements. A classic example is the tender, wistful slow movement from Brahms's Piano Concerto No. 2, which can come across as a kind of deep tragedy if one has only heard or played it at a typically sloooooooow tempo.


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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Julian_] #2689406
11/14/17 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Julian_

If you feel that 150 eighth notes per minute makes more musical sense than 100 eighth notes per minute when playing Op. 27/2, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I wasn't debating the appropriateness of Chopin's metronome marks in general (though I am not alone in noting that a Presto mazurka or two seem almost unplayable at the published metronome mark, at least on a modern piano). I too am not a fan of the modern tendency towards very slow tempi, especially in slower pieces and movements. A classic example is the tender, wistful slow movement from Brahms's Piano Concerto No. 2, which can come across as a kind of deep tragedy if one has only heard or played it at a typically sloooooooow tempo.




A great example of a very broad version of that movement, that doesn't get the tragic quality. That cello solo from Troester is just pitch-perfect.

Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Julian_] #2689491
11/14/17 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Julian_
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Julian_
My speculation is that Chopin made a mistake when writing the metronome mark for Op. 27/2.

He did not.

The development of the grand piano (greatly improved sustaining capabilities) since Chopin's day has enabled modern pianists to play these pieces at almost absurdly luxurious, dragging tempi. What Chopin marked makes much more musical sense.

If you feel that 150 eighth notes per minute makes more musical sense than 100 eighth notes per minute when playing Op. 27/2, you are of course entitled to your opinion.

I feel entitled to Chopin's opinion.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2689496
11/14/17 04:56 PM
11/14/17 04:56 PM
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Piano writing is highly textural. Part of why he marked it so fast is to blend the accompaniment together. I also happen to think the melody sounds nicer at the marked tempo. The Rubinstein version is so slow at times it's hard to listen to.

I'm convinced that if the jury of the Chopin competition blindly heard a recording of Chopin, they would say the pianist is breaking all the rules.

Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: JoelW] #2689500
11/14/17 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
I'm convinced that if the jury of the Chopin competition blindly heard a recording of Chopin, they would say the pianist is breaking all the rules.

Chopin would have been a naive interpreter. In the time since then we've built up a lot of scholarship about how to interpret Chopin that he didn't have in his day. Nowadays we have people like Daniel Trifonov who have really mastered the craft of playing Chopin.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: JoelW] #2689529
11/14/17 07:44 PM
11/14/17 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Piano writing is highly textural. Part of why he marked it so fast is to blend the accompaniment together. I also happen to think the melody sounds nicer at the marked tempo. The Rubinstein version is so slow at times it's hard to listen to.

I'm convinced that if the jury of the Chopin competition blindly heard a recording of Chopin, they would say the pianist is breaking all the rules.
I would assume most of the great pianists who play this Nocturne are aware of Chopin's metronome indication. But I don't think many of these pianists play it at Chopin's marked tempo. Same for Traumerai. Although part of this may definitely be tradition, I don't think all these great pianists are idiots. They apparently feel that these pieces sound better at a slower tempo. This feeling must be quite strong since many of these pianists do not disregard markings in the score lightly.

Many of the other Nocturnes have reasonably similar figurations in the bass and are played relatively slowly also, so trying to justify the tempo by saying that Chopin wanted to blend the accompaniment together begs the question "Why didn't he apparently not want the blending on the other Nocturnes"?

So for the Chopin Nocturne and similarly for Traumerai I don't think it makes much sense to dismiss these slower tempos out of hand. I think the question that should be asked is "Why do almost all these pianists choose a slower tempo?"

Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: pianoloverus] #2689534
11/14/17 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Many of the other Nocturnes have reasonably similar figurations in the bass and are played relatively slowly also, so trying to justify the tempo by saying that Chopin wanted to blend the accompaniment together begs the question "Why didn't he apparently not want the blending on the other Nocturnes"?

Which ones?

Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: JoelW] #2689539
11/14/17 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Many of the other Nocturnes have reasonably similar figurations in the bass and are played relatively slowly also, so trying to justify the tempo by saying that Chopin wanted to blend the accompaniment together begs the question "Why didn't he apparently not want the blending on the other Nocturnes"?
Which ones?
B flat minor, E minor Op Post., both in C # minor, E flat major form Op.55.

Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2689808
11/15/17 06:48 PM
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Schumann's Traumerei is a polyphonic piece, in the O.P.'s version it isn't. It is Schumann's most polyphonic piece, apart from some fugues that we can put aside.The title of the piece forces some pianists to really slow down, just to demonstrate how 'dreamy' they can be after the slaughterhouse-drama of the recital (Liszt, Scriabin, Chopin et al). I do not need to point to some culprits...Metronomemarks are some of the most, AND least interesting features of music, the hilarious ones in Beethoven's op.106, or the uncomfortable ones in Chopin op.10/1, or the lacking ones in all of Bach. If a pianist really has a musical mind of his own, those markings just should be there for suggestion instead of prescription, like fingerings and dynamics, the really 'musically wise' performers stand out from the crowd just because of their understanding of the music without adhering too much to things like metronomemarks or fingerings. What really matters is the sounding proof of the sentiment the composer put in his work.


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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: dolce sfogato] #2689824
11/15/17 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Schumann's Traumerei is a polyphonic piece, in the O.P.'s version it isn't. It is Schumann's most polyphonic piece, apart from some fugues that we can put aside.The title of the piece forces some pianists to really slow down, just to demonstrate how 'dreamy' they can be after the slaughterhouse-drama of the recital (Liszt, Scriabin, Chopin et al). I do not need to point to some culprits...Metronomemarks are some of the most, AND least interesting features of music, the hilarious ones in Beethoven's op.106, or the uncomfortable ones in Chopin op.10/1, or the lacking ones in all of Bach. If a pianist really has a musical mind of his own, those markings just should be there for suggestion instead of prescription, like fingerings and dynamics, the really 'musically wise' performers stand out from the crowd just because of their understanding of the music without adhering too much to things like metronomemarks or fingerings. What really matters is the sounding proof of the sentiment the composer put in his work.
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Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: dolce sfogato] #2689866
11/15/17 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Metronomemarks are some of the most, AND least interesting features of music, the hilarious ones in Beethoven's op.106...

Hilarious is not the term I would use.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: jeffreyjones] #2689999
11/16/17 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Originally Posted by Julian_
I too am not a fan of the modern tendency towards very slow tempi, especially in slower pieces and movements. A classic example is the tender, wistful slow movement from Brahms's Piano Concerto No. 2, which can come across as a kind of deep tragedy if one has only heard or played it at a typically sloooooooow tempo.

[Fischer/Furtwängler performance link]

A great example of a very broad version of that movement, that doesn't get the tragic quality. That cello solo from Troester is just pitch-perfect.

I agree that it's a fine performance, and thanks for highlighting it. The performers greatly increase the tempo from letters B to C (measures 35-54), giving the passage the needed impetus and urgency, and they also play the Più Adagio section slightly faster instead of slower. They do this artfully and convincingly, but I still prefer an Andante to their Adagio at the beginning and end, not only to avoid exaggerated sentimentality, but also for how it influences the balance between the movements. The longer the slow movement takes, the more its mood dominates over the agitation and happiness of the movements either side. As ever and always, just my opinions! (While I will never play this work, I see in my score that many years ago I wrote in "[quarter note] = 72" above measure 25, and "Tempo I" above measure 35. I still like this: a flowing initial tempo but with room to breathe in the reflective piano solo, and without the need to suddenly speed up a lot at figure B.)


(Used to post as SlatterFan)
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Terry Michael] #2750252
07/08/18 04:47 PM
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Please, take part in my musical test on this topic.


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2750257
07/08/18 04:59 PM
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A MUSICAL TEST FOR THOSE WHO CAN COUNT UP TO FOUR


I always say that a musician should be able to read sheet music and understand what is written by the composer.

But today people are laughing at such naive people, they say that it's much easier to take a recording of a celebrity and just copy by ear what sounds on celebrity's record.

Recently, five students decided to test me. They asked me to guess which of them had never looked at the notes of Schumann's famous short piece.

I listened to all five and guessed right away. I told this pianist: you played completely different music instead of what the composer wrote. Schumann wrote the Time Signature 4/4. This means that in each bar there should be a One-Two-Three-Four.

Instead, you have five quarters in one bar, six quarters in another bar, three in the next one and so on.


If we come up with some suitable words for 4/4, then they can be sung to this melody with the correct stressing. For example,

"One day brings opportUnity
and the dreamer is victorious and glOrious".


And with the fake, usually performed Time Signature, these words will have to be sung with a wrong stressing like this:

"One day brings opportunitY
and the dreamer is victorious and gloriOus".



However, this pianist did not give up. He invited me along with him to listen to all the records of this piece on You Tube and find at least one with the right, genuine Schumann's Time Signature.

We listened for a long time, but not a single record without this annoying mistake was found. All the pianists played anything, but not the Time Signature 4/4 that Schumann wrote.


I invite everyone who loves music and knows how to count to four, to go through the same test and find a pianist who can not count among these five. And if someone knows the record of Traumerei with the correct Time Signature - please, let me know in the comments.

I will listen with a great interest and I thank you in advance!

Good luck to everyone in the test! And thanks for watching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4VKU_bWjd0




For comparison, I invite you to listen to the same piece performed by famous pianists:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vajd0ypDYQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13g53OYFHyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhKaAX5dOc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgu5NdnkrZ0


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Only Schumann's Traumerei at authentic tempo [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2750277
07/08/18 06:53 PM
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This is a video which is at least halfway relevant :

Schumann tempo

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