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What is Ohlsson referring to? #2657503
06/29/17 12:43 PM
06/29/17 12:43 PM
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JoelW Offline OP
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI1XWrPNaAM&t=47m36s

He talks about Chopin's use of the 7th on the third go around, then later remarks "Chopin does this particular trick four times in his life and it's always drop dead astounding and it's never the same twice."

Can anyone recall what they are?

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Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2657528
06/29/17 03:35 PM
06/29/17 03:35 PM
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Great little quiz!
Of maybe more like Sherlock Holmes case. grin

I have 3 nominees, dunno if any of them are right.

Berceuse -- definitely adds the 7th, but not sure if it's the "3rd time around." Depends how we count.
By my counting, it's actually either the 2nd time around, or about the 1000th. ha

-- D-flat major Etude from Op. 25 (#8) -- again, definitely adds the 7th, and in this case, I'm pretty sure it is indeed the 3rd time around.

-- and, also 'the other' D-flat major Etude, #2 from Trois nouvelles etudes. I don't know this piece thoroughly, but I think it qualifies.

No idea what the 4th might be.

OH WAIT A MINUTE -- I think I've got it.

The 2nd theme of the B-flat minor Scherzo, the thing that's sometimes called the "cantilena."
The 7th gets added to the harmony when the melody comes in for the last time before the final flourish (and I think we'd consider it the "3rd time"), although it's in a different kind of way, and not sure it fits what he meant.

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2657537
06/29/17 04:33 PM
06/29/17 04:33 PM
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What about the third phrase in the 13th prelude? Instead of the F# major chord this time it starts with F# dom 7.


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Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2657544
06/29/17 05:01 PM
06/29/17 05:01 PM
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I forgot to mention that Ohlsson specifies D-flat major for all four cases. The berceuse is undoubtedly one of them. The prelude definitely uses this trick too, but it's in the wrong key. And as for the etude, Mark, I know what you're referring to, but I don't think it qualifies.

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2657562
06/29/17 05:59 PM
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I said 2 etudes. Which one are you nixing?

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2657568
06/29/17 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
I forgot to mention that Ohlsson specifies D-flat major for all four cases. The berceuse is undoubtedly one of them. The prelude definitely uses this trick too, but it's in the wrong key. And as for the etude, Mark, I know what you're referring to, but I don't think it qualifies.

So the question I have is, does he mean the whole piece is in D-flat each time or that the "event" happens in Db? I think, from the way he says it ("and each time it's in Db") it has to be the latter. In which case, the middle section of the Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1 has to be one of the examples he was thinking of. The Db7 starting at bar 51 is sustained for 8 full bars, initially fortissimo con forza then dying away to a pianissimo. Almost exactly the same effect as in Op. 27 No. 2!

BTW, Mark, I can't find what you're referring to in the nouvelle etude. Do you have a bar number?

So how many does that leave?


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Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: Mark_C] #2657569
06/29/17 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I said 2 etudes. Which one are you nixing?

I think the 3rd of the Nouvelles etudes, for the reason I just said. Op. 25 No. 8 does seem to qualify.


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Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: SiFi] #2657572
06/29/17 06:56 PM
06/29/17 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
.....I can't find what you're referring to in the nouvelle etude. Do you have a bar number?....

No, I have nothing. smile
As I said, I don't know the piece well, just had an impression that it might 'qualify.'
I just took a look at the score, and it doesn't. To the extent that there's anything with a 7th, it's there the 1st time around too.

BTW, I said before that it's #3 in the Nouvelles Etudes. Actually it's #2, but it's wrong anyway.

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: Mark_C] #2657643
06/29/17 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I said before that it's #3 in the Nouvelles Etudes. Actually it's #2, but it's wrong anyway.

No it's not #2, which is in Ab. It's #3. And it's an exquisitely beautiful work, even though it doesn't meet JoelW's or Ohlsson's criteria.

Actually, if I may digress, the piece seems to owe a debt to Moscheles, with whose music Chopin was intimately familiar. Specifically, there is IMO a strong echo in the Chopin work -- harmonic, figurative, affective -- of Moscheles's Op. 70 No. 9. I try to show this in my chapter on Chopin's studies in The Cambridge Companion To Chopin (CUP, 1992); see pp. 66 - 67, Examples 7a and 7b. https://books.google.com/books?id=s...imon%20finlow%20the%20twenty&f=false


SRF
Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: SiFi] #2657645
06/30/17 12:21 AM
06/30/17 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
So how many does that leave?

OK, so we have the Berceuse, Op 25 No. 8, and Op. 9 No. 1. What else?

Maybe he's thinking of the moment in the Scherzo #3 Op. 39 where, on the third occurrence of the the chorale theme, which is of course in Db major, Chopin suddenly introduces a Cb in the Db chord. It's only momentary, but it's always struck me as, well, rather striking, especially in as much as it resolves unusually onto a dissonance that itself is irregularly resolved. Unlikely that Ohlssohn is thinking of this, but it's still an example of what he's talking about.

Anyone know the bloke? Can we just ask him somehow?


SRF
Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: SiFi] #2657648
06/30/17 12:48 AM
06/30/17 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by Mark_C
I said before that it's #3 in the Nouvelles Etudes. Actually it's #2, but it's wrong anyway.

No it's not #2, which is in Ab. It's #3.

Golly this is confusing. grin

But it is #2!

(I wonder why both of us thought it was #3....no, I'm wrong, you knew it's #3. But it's 2.) smile

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: Mark_C] #2657652
06/30/17 01:26 AM
06/30/17 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by Mark_C
I said before that it's #3 in the Nouvelles Etudes. Actually it's #2, but it's wrong anyway.

No it's not #2, which is in Ab. It's #3.

Golly this is confusing. grin

But it is #2!

(I wonder why both of us thought it was #3....no, I'm wrong, you knew it's #3. But it's 2.) smile

Let me explain. The Trois nouvelles etudes were originally "composed for the Methode des Methodes de Moscheles et Fetis", specifically to be included in volume 2 of that treatise along with other studies by Heller, Liszt, Thalberg, Dohler, Mendelssohn, etc. In this publication, the second of Chopin's contributions was the Db one and the third was the Ab one; this happens to be the order in which they appear in the autograph. The first German edition of the three etudes published separately preserved that order. However, the first and second French editions reversed the order, then a subsequent French edition reversed that. However, there is no modern edition, including Urtexts and what-have-you, that prints them in the original order. So, whether Chopin wanted it or not, #2 is now #3 and #3 is #2 henceforth and forever.

Which part of that simple explanation do you guys not understand??????!!!!!!!!!!!!


SRF
Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: SiFi] #2657654
06/30/17 01:30 AM
06/30/17 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
The Trois nouvelles etudes were originally "composed for the Methode des Methodes de Moscheles et Fetis", specifically to be included in volume 2 of that treatise along with other studies by Heller, Liszt, Thalberg, Dohler, Mendelssohn, etc.

Anyone who hasn't inspected this volume really should. Lots of good music in it. http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/...0696-Moscheles_Methodes_des_Methodes.pdf


SRF
Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: SiFi] #2657668
06/30/17 03:49 AM
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Folks, we've got some serious musicology going on.... grin

Now I know why I could have sworn it was #3.

(As I mentioned, I originally wrote that it was #3. Then, after posting it, I looked it up on IMSLP to 'make sure' -- and saw that it appeared as #2 on there. I did a double-take -- in fact a triple or quadruple take, scrolling up and down and up again to be sure that I was really seeing the D-flat as #2 and the A-flat as #3, because I'd been pretty sure it was the other way around, but it was really so (in that edition) -- and so I changed that first post. I wish I could change it back.) ha

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2687719
11/07/17 12:02 AM
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Sorry to bump this thread, but maybe one of them is in the first nocturne?

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Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2687737
11/07/17 01:13 AM
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Simon mentioned that! smile

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: Mark_C] #2687742
11/07/17 01:31 AM
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Oops. whome

So to review, we have the berceuse and the two nocturnes for certain. That leaves one more.

Maybe Ohlsson was just trolling everyone, expecting them to go crazy looking for the last one. grin

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: JoelW] #2687755
11/07/17 03:32 AM
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Maybe you can try sending him message to find out the answers. But I doubt he would reply.

https://garrickohlsson.com/contact/

Re: What is Ohlsson referring to? [Re: SiFi] #2687806
11/07/17 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by SiFi
So how many does that leave?

OK, so we have the Berceuse, Op 25 No. 8, and Op. 9 No. 1. What else?

Maybe he's thinking of the moment in the Scherzo #3 Op. 39 where, on the third occurrence of the the chorale theme, which is of course in Db major, Chopin suddenly introduces a Cb in the Db chord. It's only momentary, but it's always struck me as, well, rather striking, especially in as much as it resolves unusually onto a dissonance that itself is irregularly resolved. Unlikely that Ohlssohn is thinking of this, but it's still an example of what he's talking about.

Anyone know the bloke? Can we just ask him somehow?


Pretty sure it's just the one he plays in the video.

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