Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Teacher tells me I "need" a real acoustic?

This is quite possibly at the heart of the issue at hand.

It would be worthwhile to discuss this fully.

Maybe I missed it somewhere in this thread, but did your teacher say *why* you really need an acoustic?

There are numerous reasons for and against, but without knowing the rationale it's impossible to comment on it.

Holger,

Thank you for your considerable and kind responses! Yes I'm very happy with my Roland DP's. I even tried an Avant Grand and Kawai's, and preferred my Rolands, which is all very subjective, and not a negative to Yamaha or Kawai. Yes Holger I do not have any aspirations of becoming a professional pianist. I love improving, and hopefully I will continue to improve until that final day that only the Lord knows.

I put in a minimum of 2 hours per day, and 3 to 4 on the weekends. I would spend more time if I had it, but alas work and sleep interfere with what my heart and soul tell me.

Joanngolfing,

I may, but, not quite yet convinced it is necessary. I do take all of the responses seriously but I never jump into things. I spent a considerable amount of time researching and playing pianos before my DP purchase, and will spend considerable time before I decide on a real acoustic grand piano. It was only my teacher that made me question my decision when I later started taking lessons.

Mac,

I only have one teacher. She is very good in my opinion, but like all of us, has her opinion on how things should be. I actually prefer that type over someone who rides the fence.

OneWatt,

Yes I have considered that. lol

Lakeview,

I played on a BUNCH of acoustic pianos before the purchase of the Roland's. Only a few were significantly "better", than what I felt the Roland's were capable of, and of those they were in the 40k plus range. So I reasoned with myself and asked the question do I "need" a piano that expensive or will the DP's get the job done for 97% of what I do, and the answer was no. I do need a piano and can't imagine my world without the release that music gives me. My mother and grandmother instilled the love of music in me.

I was happy until I started taking lessons, and my teacher questioned my decision recommending that I get an acoustic. I am her only student that uses a DP. I have a hard time thinking that will last for long the way things are trending. One of her students owns a Bosie. I would love to ask him what he thinks of the Yamaha, but I won't. I think I am the country bumpkin compared to the rest of her students.

dmd and Gombessa,

She feels as Holger pointed out that controlling the sounds and shaping them can only be done properly on a real acoustic piano. At the moment I'm working on the second Brahms Intermezzo and then the third one (finished the first to her satisfaction) and she is hardcore on the dynamics, technique, and bringing out the melody, which is kind of funny because I can do it better on my DP, than her Yamaha, but I don't dare tell her that. lol

I have listened to her play and she is very good, and a gentle soul but strict and opinionated which is fine by me as I stated above. Teachers that you improve with and get along with for the most part are hard to come by, and especially where I live.

So at this point I may just let her opine over my lack of a "real" piano as I give consideration to your responses, and start playing real pianos in the show rooms to decide if my resources should be spent in that direction, but it is very difficult to play well on her piano for me personally. I did tell her that once, and her response was, "You are a pianist, you play well on any instrument that is in front of you, control it, and deal with it." Just have to love a teacher with that attitude and discipline. At least I do. lol

Thank you everyone so much for your time and responses. Play your hearts out, which is the "only" way to play the piano.

You speak of difficulty controlling dynamics on the AP as opposed to the DP. There is no doubt that is or can be the case. On the DP you can theoretically setup the lowest velocity as 1dBSPL and the highest velocity as 140dBSPL or what ever loudness you want. This is not possible on an AP. About the best you are going to get is a range from about 35dBSPL to 105dBSPL, still a phenomenal range and rarely if ever used by amateurs, rock and jazz musicians, and not that many classical musicians. The reality is that an AP changes the lower dynamic levels much more quickly than the upper levels which tend to plateau. The velocity curve on an AP is never close to straight.

You must decide if you want to play an Acoustic Piano, or restrict yourself to playing on a DP. There is no right answer, except in one case. If one desires to become a professional classical concert pianist, at this time, there is no path that includes a DP.

I think this is a great suggestion.

However, no matter how good a digital you have (and the LX-17 is great), it does not compare to a good acoustic grand. A few points to consider (both in favor and against getting an acoustic):

- Most DPs today are designed to mimic the feel of a grand piano action, but generally the feel and sound of a roughly 7' grand. So if you are comparing your Roland with a 5'4" grand, you will be sorely disappointed.

- If you've always dreamed of having a grand piano, by all means, now is the time! But take your time in doing research to find one that has the feel and sound you like. You mentioned you didn't care for your teacher's G1. Yamaha's tend to be brighter in sound, and usually have a lighter action. Plus, a G1 is short (5'3"), so the bass notes will be disappointing. I recommend nothing shorter than 6' or around there.

- The big difference between a DP and an AP is surprisingly no longer the action, but the sound. Acoustic sounds more alive. I have not tried the latest offerings by Kawai on the CA series (or the Novus, of course), but from what I've played, I would say that DPs still have a ways to go in this regard. Software pianos get close, but still they lack in the same way.

If you decide to stick with your DP, I recommend not doing only practice with headphones, and to have the volume up enough (more than 75%) to achieve the loudness of a larger grand piano. It takes some getting used to, but this will help in many ways when switching to play on your teacher's piano.

Ultimately, it's your choice, though. Many teachers do say this without ever having played a late-model DP and are assuming they're still as bad as they were in the 80s when the last tried one, or that all are "keyboards" with no regard for a piano-feeling action. If she can play your instrument, however, she can then give you an honest opinion that would certainly help you decide what's right for you.

My story as a teenage student was similar to yours - except that my last teacher (a concert pianist) owned two six-foot grands: one C.Behstein, one Blüthner. At that time, I'd been playing for eight years but had never played on a grand, only uprights. My home upright was a very light & shallow-actioned cheap little Yamaha (I believe it was the cheapest available in my home country, sold to my parents as being "suitable for beginners") with tonal variation ranging from shallow & bright to harsh & shrill. When I moved to the UK, I had to play much bigger uprights with heavier, deeper actions and with real depth to the sound, in my new high school's practice rooms. My new teacher taught on those pianos and I had to adjust, with some difficulty. (And of course, the pianos I had to play on for my grade exams were another matter again.)

Then at university, with my last teacher, an even bigger shock - I could barely get anything above mp out of his two pianos. One was also heavier-actioned than the other, but both were much heavier in feel than the uprights I was practicing on. Again, a period of adaptation was required on my part. I'm sure he thought I was weak & feeble (OK, I was weak & feeble..... ) - and it took me a whole lot longer to adjust, because I was practicing on pianos with a totally different action to what I played on during the lessons.

During the intervening years until I finally bought my own piano (a modeled DP), I had to play on anything I could get my hands on, which gave me the ability to adapt to almost any piano. Incidentally, everyone (i.e. classical pianists, who normally never played digitals) who played on my DP were impressed by how responsive it is, and how rich the sound is. It changed their opinions of the current state of digitals. Playing a piano - especially a modeled digital - is quite different to listening to a recording of it, which is what your teacher has been doing.

If you do want to buy an acoustic grand, don't buy anything smaller than a six-footer. Not just because baby grands don't sound too good - especially in the bass -, but also because their short keys compromise the actions.

If your goal is to play the acoustic piano at conservatory level then yes, you need the right tool for the right job.
But you are also forced to live within the budgetary constraints of your personal and family finances.
So ask your teacher to assist you in finding an instrument that is acceptable and that you can afford. Are you sure he/ she is just not stating the obvious? If you're 67 years of age, might you not want to own the real deal in your lifetime?

The flip side of the coin is that in the realities of the modern musical world we need to perform on all manner of keyboard instruments to earn a living - if you can call being a classical or jazz trained musician a living any longer.

Asking the guys in the digital piano forum if you really need an acoustic is a loaded question. You already know the answers you're going to get. Make a decision based on your goals and finances and what will make you happy. There are a lot of acoustics that will tickle your fancy like no digital can but they are an investment and require maintenance. If your fine with your digital lifestyle, leave it be.

Two thoughts, for what they're worth:



It's possible that she's strongly biased, and no amount of argument -- or demonstration -- will change her mind.

But lugging the RD-2000 to a lesson, along with some speakers -- it's worth trying. It might also let you show how your playing sounds on _your_ piano, rather than on hers.


Another thing:

. . . Have you played with the "touch settings" on the Rolands?

It may seem backward (and in some sense, it _is_ backward), but you could try to adjust the Rolands to play more like her acoustic. That way, you'd be practicing so that the music sounded good _at the lesson_.

I can't tell you exactly what to adjust. But I know the high-end Rolands have a fair bit of adjustability in the relationship between "key velocity" and "MIDI velocity" (the "touch curve"), and I think they let you control some of the "tone vs MIDI velocity" settings.


I like the idea that we've reached a point where a good DP can, perhaps, out-play a middle-grade acoustic.

That's how I feel with my LX7. Enjoy your piano!

But it got me thinking back to the 50's when I was playing all kinds of pianos and organs on a daily basis. The only time I remember touch being mentioned was when the school first got their Steinway grand. It was very light but I must have got used to it as I played it in assembly on a daily basis for the best part of 6 years, and on numerous other occasions. Mind you, perhaps I can then excuse my variations in competitions on the different pianos, though I think not.

Maybe today we are more sensitive to these issues, or simply more demanding, or?

It seems to me that there is a lot of discussion on this thread about the relative benefits of acoustic and digital pianos, but none of that -- important though it might be in a general sense -- really gets to the heart of the OP's question. The OP has been told that he or she "needs" an acoustic piano. In that situation my question would be: why? That is, why does the teacher expression such a "need"? Speculating about the differences won't answer the actual question -- only one person can answer it.

An excellent point.

I've been reading this thread without participating. I have been told that quite a few teachers have a knee-jerk reaction to digital pianos, thinking they are all the same, and are simply against all of them "just because".

I don't know if this has been mentioned: Is she criticizing anything in the playing during the weekly lessons which is causing her to take this tack? Or might it be that the OP is playing so well that she thinks he needs to "step up" to a better piano (with the aforementioned assumption about all digital pianos)?

That's the problem you hit it on the head. LOL

I will take my RD-2000 to a lesson and let all of you know what she said. I'm preparing for an upcoming graduation, so I have the perfect excuse to play on my instrument and ask her how it sounds.

I am blown away by all the posts and recommendations, you are all the best, and thank you for all the help, what a great forum.

I'd think it's almost certainly down to the condition of the baby grand rather than the size. If the baby grand is tricky to make sound anything other than brash and loud then the hammers are probably worn. The size of a concert grand helps but it mostly reduces inharmonicity, provides better bass respond (lower possible soundboard frequency) and increases overall volume - the quiet goes up as well as the loud. Thing is, you rarely find a concert grand in poor condition, the same cannot be said of baby grands.

Is your teacher 75 years old or so?

I know some people who are in that age bracket, who tried some digital piano's in the 80's and 90's, and then written them off as useless. They haven't tried anything since, and for them, digital = bad. Those are the same kind of people who keep jacking around with 45 year old Hammond B3's because they are 'better' than the many digital clones today... even though the B3's get harder and harder to keep running, and clones are so good that, if put through a real Leslie, there's basically no difference. They seem to be unable to accept that the 2017 digital piano's (and the better post-2007 Hammond clones) are not the same digital instruments than the ones from the 80's and 90's.

Nowadays, the high-end digital piano's such as the LX-17 and the Kawai CA/CS models are good enough to just be a different piano (with regard to action). As they imitate a grand action, they might actually be better than a similarly priced upright. The LX-17 has resonances to match those of a huge upright or a small grand, so no problems there either, and it has full continuous pedaling.

If your teacher doubts the LX-17 being fit for high-end repertoire, then show him this video.

If the teacher is still adamant you 'need' an acoustic piano, I'd probably switch teachers, as this will be a point of contention forever.

PS: I have played on a lot of organ and synth actions. I'm also building some experience with digital and acoustic piano actions. I _don't care_ if an action is made out of wood, plastic, wood/plastic hybrid, silver, gold, or concrete, as long as I can do whatever I need to do. The only thing I can say for sure is: The LX-17's PHA-50 action allows me to trill MUCH faster than the MP-7's RHII. PHA-50 and Kawai GF2 are comparable: I can control dynamics and trill volume better on the PHA-50, but I can trill faster on the GF2. Acoustic piano's are mix and match: some are as good as the LX-17, some are much, much worse (especially the cheaper uprights).

With the current crop of high-end digital piano's such as the LX-17 I'd only consider a higher-end upright (something like a Kawai K-600 or better), or a small grand (which is at least as large as the largest upright with regard to soundboard, such as a Kawai GL30). Even then, the digital has the advantage of adjustable volume, headphones, and the capability of being tuned and voiced on a note by note basis, _by myself_, to fit my taste and room.

As much as I'd love to have a 7+ foot grand (Kawai, a voiced down Yamaha, or a European brand), I think it'll never happen because of the space requirement and the high volume. And then I'm not even talking about maintenance.

Are you saying that a DP is your second choice? If so, what makes the AP your first choice?

Not your problem. How can you be certain she likes the sound of any acoustic you might choose?

Even so, the Roland comes with four default sounds, and you can customize them to a great extent. I did: I've built my own "Concert Piano", and the other four are all defaults. I basically don't touch the controls anymore. I just flip up the fallboard and play. The only thing I'd have liked would have been a slide-out panel like the digital B3, or a covered panel on the cheekblock like the CS11. (This despite liking to have the controls in front of me when I'm using them...)



If you like her as a teacher, then just tell her that you have chosen the LX-17 (and RD-2000) as your piano's because you like them, and that's that. If she can't accept it, I'd label her a snob, to be honest. You pay her to teach you to play piano, not to judge the instrument you use. What does she tell people who don't have more than €2000 to spend and/or have a very limited amount of space, and they buy something like a Roland DP-603? That's basically the LX-17 with two stereo speakers, in a tiny cabinet. Connect a headphone, and through that, the DP-603 and LX-17 will play and sound exactly the same, for less than half of the price. Will the teacher tell owners of the DP-603 to get a real acoustic 7 foot grand, and oh... while you're at it, get a house to fit around it?



She has already determined she doesn't like ANY digital. There's a probability she will tell you she doesn't like the RD-2000 / PHA-50 action even if she's secretly impressed.

Then in THAT case, there should be NO reason for her to dismiss the current crop of high-end digitals, because they are a part of the "any instrument" collection.

Yes, the DP is my second choice, but the reason is only sentimental. I'd like to have an instrument that is just that, and nothing else. Digitals include a large amount of superfluous stuff. The perfect digital for me would have been an LX-17, with no voice selections: only the piano designer to choose a single character (mellow, bright, default, etc...) and the options to tune and voice it to my liking and the room its in. After you're done, that's the piano you have, and nothing else. Slide the panel closed, and it'll never be opened for the life of the piano.

The perfect acoustic piano would be a one that only needs to be tuned and voiced once, and has an adjustable volume. That doesn't exist, obviously.

For the same reasons, I'd love a digital camera without a screen, and only a few buttons and dials, for ISO, F-stop, and shutter speed. The equivalent analogue camera would be one which comes with an unlimited amount of film (for free), and a scanner which lets me scan it into a computer at the speed of reading an SD-card. That also doesn't exist.

I just don't need or want 347 voices in a piano, or any other tricks and stuff it can do, the same as I don't need or want any digital effects in a camera; effects my computer can do better, with much more control.

Still, the advantages of digital piano's (and camera's) are so large that they are the better choice... and I'll just have to ignore all the stuff I don't need. (And I fully understand that there are people who do need or do want that same stuff.)

The closest digital to an acoustic piano is a Casio Celviano GP-300 hybrid developed with the Bechstein piano. Has the hammer action of an acoustic piano. The piano sound effects are close to an acoustic but somehow isn't quite there.

The thing about acoustic pianos is that they are personal toys. Once you have it, the piano stays in the house for many years. They are cumbersome to move around and a lot of students starting off avoid them. If you just starting lessons and not sure if you will continue 5 years down the line, a keyboard is easier to get rid of. When it comes to piano action, know a local piano technician who would take the hammers apart and adjust the touch to suit individual pianists. Regular tuning every few years is a must.

Unless someone is serious playing music for a better sound, a keyboard is more practical. I live in a high-rise so moving up the elevator is an issue. With an 88 keyboard, the stand and the "plastic" foot pedals can be disassembled and moved in separate pieces.

My teacher is in her late 40's. I don't consider her a snob, just highly sure of what she knows, and what her students need. I will deal with it, and as she gets to know me better, she may eventually soften to my DP.

I think she doesn't like the "sound" of my recordings(which was pointed out, that's not my problem). She has mentioned that she likes my touch/musicality, but the sound I think annoys her. I will have to investigate further. I know for a fact that she does not want me to quit, and monetary reasons is not in the equation. I have finished pieces to her approval and she gives praise where praise is due, and gets on me vociferously when I don't use proper technique, but always appropriately. I am never offended by her methods.

I started lessons with her around mid July, every two weeks. So we are just getting to know each other basically. She has improved me significantly within this time period, and I have learned things that were never taught to me in my youth (9-18). My teachers during that time period were intermediate piano players giving lessons, no theory, dynamics, musicality, just work on this piece until you learn it, rinse and repeat.

I just posted the question as to how necessary is a real acoustic vs a quality DP in order to progress to a high advanced level of skill, and was I missing out on not owning a quality acoustic piano. I think the consensus is no I'm not missing out.

Lots of points were made in this thread and I have taken all of them to heart, and again thank all of you sincerely for taking the time. I am overwhelmed by the response. One person said I posted here to get the answer I wanted. That was never my intention, I assumed because I own a DP that this was the proper thread to ask the question. No one in my area owns a high quality DP and even fewer own a high quality grand, at least no one I know that I could talk to. Only my teacher was available for her ideas, and I know what she thinks. If the majority of responses indicated that I should get an acoustic, I would direct my time and resources in that direction, but so far all indications are that a high quality DP will not hold you back in reaching a high advanced level of skill, and if anything promotes more practice because of the features it offers over a traditional acoustic which was really why I bought the LX-17 and RD-2000 originally. My teacher was the one who made me question what I had done, so I came here and posted my question.