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Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 #2687123
11/04/17 05:05 PM
11/04/17 05:05 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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I am playing Chopin's Waltz 64 No 2 (in C-sharp minor) and I have a question about the third part (which is in fact in D-flat major).

This part has a few ties between non-adjacent notes for the left hand. One of them is marked in red below:

[Linked Image]

I checked some Youtube videos of this piece and I realized that many people just neglect this tie. Maybe they use pedal, but the sheet suggests these notes should be played without pedal.

For me, there is a bit of struggle to play this correctly. I assume the correct way is to use Index Finger for B♭ and Thumb for F at the same time (before the tie), then quickly switch Index to Thumb to continue holding B♭, and then using Fingers 5, 4, and 3 for D♭, D♮, and E♭ while the Thumb is still holding B♭.

So am I correct about this? Is there any easier way of playing that I might be missing?

Thank you in advance!
Mike

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Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687129
11/04/17 05:15 PM
11/04/17 05:15 PM
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JoelW Offline
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Use the pedal to sustain the chord over the bar line. Make the switch on beat 3 of bar 68, not on beat 1 of 69. I'm surprised you are playing this waltz at all if this bar is a challenge.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: JoelW] #2687136
11/04/17 05:25 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Use the pedal to sustain the chord over the bar line. Make the switch on beat 3 of bar 68, not on beat 1 of 69.


Thanks. Well, that's exactly what I say. I can't use the pedal for 68 and 69, according to the sheet. If I switch at beat 3 of bar 68, something will be lost without using the pedal.


Last edited by mbtr; 11/04/17 05:25 PM.
Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687145
11/04/17 05:39 PM
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If you need to use pedal for a moment to maintain the sustain, do so.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687147
11/04/17 05:41 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Fair enough smile

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687149
11/04/17 05:42 PM
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The score shows how to do the finger shift on the note, 2-1 after releasing the F. If you get your thumb on the B-flat then there is no problem.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687152
11/04/17 05:50 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
The score shows how to do the finger shift on the note, 2-1 after releasing the F


Thanks, jeffreyjones smile You're right. My point was that releasing F at the beat 3 of bar 68 is not right, because no pedal is used for the bars 68/69. JoelW said it would be fine to hold the pedal for a moment to maintain the sustain

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687154
11/04/17 05:54 PM
11/04/17 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mbtr
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
The score shows how to do the finger shift on the note, 2-1 after releasing the F
Thanks, jeffreyjones smile You're right. My point was that releasing F at the beat 3 of bar 68 is not right, because no pedal is used for the bars 68/69. JoelW said it would be fine to hold the pedal for a moment to maintain the sustain


I don't think you're meant to sustain the F. Also, the F in the melody line on beat 3 is the same note.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687156
11/04/17 05:58 PM
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If you really want to follow the pedal markings, you're just going to have to practice the maneuver a bit. It's entirely possible to do cleanly and relaxed as written. I only recommended using the pedal because you asked for an easier way to do it.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687160
11/04/17 06:03 PM
11/04/17 06:03 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
I don't think you're meant to sustain the F. Also, the F in the melody line on beat 3 is the same note.


So if you switch at the beat 3 of bar 68 (as JoelW also suggested for being easier), you need to use the pedal to sustain F for the beat 1 of 69. If you switch at beat 1 of 69, you don't need the pedal, but you need to be very fast.



Last edited by mbtr; 11/04/17 06:09 PM.
Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687162
11/04/17 06:09 PM
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Yes. It might help you to play high up on the Bb key with 2 so 1 has plenty of room when switching over quickly.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687163
11/04/17 06:09 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoelW
If you really want to follow the pedal markings, you're just going to have to practice the maneuver a bit. It's entirely possible to do cleanly and relaxed as written. I only recommended using the pedal because you asked for an easier way to do it.

That's true... You know, I believe I always over-pedaled in the past. So I am getting back to some pieces that I played before to correct my mistakes. This is why I am so sensitive to the pedal marks.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687165
11/04/17 06:16 PM
11/04/17 06:16 PM
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No tie for the F. No need to use the pedal either. I instead use finger 4 for the Bb then place 1. Very easy to do.

Also, in this piece the last RH note just before key goes back to C# minor (bars 97/98) should be played with finger 2 on the G, then finger 1 on the G#. Much easier to stay relaxed - for me at least. Then in the bars that follow, one has to hold those lower tied RH notes as specified, etc.

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687175
11/04/17 07:19 PM
11/04/17 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mbtr
.....because no pedal is used for the bars 68/69

I think a big part of why you had trouble with this is that you're thinking that thing there.

It's not so.
I doubt that there are many performers who use no pedal on those bars.

I assume you're saying it because there's no pedal marking under those measures, while there is the pedal marking for the 2-measure groups around it.

That doesn't mean no pedal in m. 68-69, just as in general an absence of pedal indication doesn't mean you don't or can't use pedal.

IMO the reason for those pedal markings on those other 2-measure groups is to let you know to use long pedals there, which is not necessarily intuitive; in fact we could say it's a little unusual, although it doesn't really feel unusual to me because I'm used to it, not just there but with Chopin in general. But remember, when Chopin wrote his stuff and when it was published, he couldn't assume that people would just know about that kind of thing; pedaling across a bar line and pedaling (sort of) through a change from A♭ to A♮wasn't really a known thing and certainly wasn't a common thing. So, Chopin put that pedaling indication there to let you know to do this unusual thing. For the measures you're talking about, the pedaling is more 'ordinary' -- not easy either, but more ordinary, so no indication was needed. But it absolutely doesn't mean that you don't or can't use pedal!!!

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: Bosendorff] #2687180
11/04/17 07:41 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
No tie for the F. No need to use the pedal either. I instead use finger 4 for the Bb then place 1. Very easy to do.

Also, in this piece the last RH note just before key goes back to C# minor (bars 97/98) should be played with finger 2 on the G, then finger 1 on the G#. Much easier to stay relaxed - for me at least. Then in the bars that follow, one has to hold those lower tied RH notes as specified, etc.

Thanks for your note smile

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: Mark_C] #2687184
11/04/17 07:50 PM
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mbtr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
That doesn't mean no pedal in m. 68-69, just as in general an absence of pedal indication doesn't mean you don't or can't use pedal.

Thank you for mentioning this. Yeah, I see many people pressing the pedal for the entire bar 69, which makes it even unnecessary to hold the B♭ all the way. I guess I also used to play it this way, but now I got back to correct my pedaling issues smile


Last edited by mbtr; 11/04/17 07:53 PM.
Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687268
11/05/17 09:58 AM
11/05/17 09:58 AM
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At one point (as evidenced by a manuscript of the Waltz that Chopin presented as a gift), Chopin avoided the issue altogether by writing a rest in the left hand on the downbeat of m. 69. It's always a little unclear how the presence of such a variant should affect how one decides to play a passage in a different source, but it at least provides food for thought.

You can find the manuscript here:

Presentation manuscript of op 64 no 2

Jeff Kallberg

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: Jeff Kallberg] #2687281
11/05/17 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kallberg
At one point (as evidenced by a manuscript of the Waltz that Chopin presented as a gift), Chopin avoided the issue altogether by writing a rest in the left hand on the downbeat of m. 69. It's always a little unclear how the presence of such a variant should affect how one decides to play a passage in a different source, but it at least provides food for thought.

You can find the manuscript here:

[url=http://www.chopinonline.ac.uk/ocve/browse/pageview/78500/]Presentation manuscript of op 64 no 2[/url

Dr. Kallberg -- great to see you here!
Thanks for showing us this.

And, may I venture to ask -- need I say, without any necessity for you to wade into this: To my surprise, before my rather late post about it, nobody else had mentioned what I consider the "Emperor's New Clothes" thing in this discussion, which is that absence of pedal marking within such a passage doesn't mean you don't use pedal there; and nobody has commented on it since then, except perhaps the original poster who seems maybe to be just rejecting it out of hand.

Any thoughts on it that you can mention, and perhaps evidence?

Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: mbtr] #2687302
11/05/17 12:57 PM
11/05/17 12:57 PM
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One modern scholar and interpreter of Chopin, Eleanor Bailie, observes that the absence of pedal markings in Chopin Urtext scores doesn't necessarily mean no pedaling, as Marc_C points out. Bailie suggests that Chopin indicates pedaling where it may not be intuitive or where he wants a particular effect. She adds, though, that we should not assume that where no pedaling is indicated we must necessarily avoid the use of the damper pedal.

A glance at such an authoritative edition as the National Edition (ed. Ekier) and Henle is evidence of this, in my opinion. There are many pages where very little pedal is indicated but it would be contrary to anyone's (reasonable) interpretation to not use pedal just because no pedal is indicated in the score.

Regards,


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Re: Tie between non-adjacent notes in Chopin's Waltz 64-2 [Re: Mark_C] #2687345
11/05/17 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
It's not so.
I doubt that there are many performers who use no pedal on those bars.

I assume you're saying it because there's no pedal marking under those measures, while there is the pedal marking for the 2-measure groups around it.

That doesn't mean no pedal in m. 68-69, just as in general an absence of pedal indication doesn't mean you don't or can't use pedal.

IMO the reason for those pedal markings on those other 2-measure groups is to let you know to use long pedals there, which is not necessarily intuitive; in fact we could say it's a little unusual, although it doesn't really feel unusual to me because I'm used to it, not just there but with Chopin in general. But remember, when Chopin wrote his stuff and when it was published, he couldn't assume that people would just know about that kind of thing; pedaling across a bar line and pedaling (sort of) through a change from A♭ to A♮wasn't really a known thing and certainly wasn't a common thing. So, Chopin put that pedaling indication there to let you know to do this unusual thing. For the measures you're talking about, the pedaling is more 'ordinary' -- not easy either, but more ordinary, so no indication was needed. But it absolutely doesn't mean that you don't or can't use pedal!!!

Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by mbtr
.....because no pedal is used for the bars 68/69

I think a big part of why you had trouble with this is that you're thinking that thing there.

It's not so.
I doubt that there are many performers who use no pedal on those bars.

I assume you're saying it because there's no pedal marking under those measures, while there is the pedal marking for the 2-measure groups around it.

That doesn't mean no pedal in m. 68-69, just as in general an absence of pedal indication doesn't mean you don't or can't use pedal.

IMO the reason for those pedal markings on those other 2-measure groups is to let you know to use long pedals there, which is not necessarily intuitive; in fact we could say it's a little unusual, although it doesn't really feel unusual to me because I'm used to it, not just there but with Chopin in general. But remember, when Chopin wrote his stuff and when it was published, he couldn't assume that people would just know about that kind of thing; pedaling across a bar line and pedaling (sort of) through a change from A♭ to A♮wasn't really a known thing and certainly wasn't a common thing. So, Chopin put that pedaling indication there to let you know to do this unusual thing. For the measures you're talking about, the pedaling is more 'ordinary' -- not easy either, but more ordinary, so no indication was needed. But it absolutely doesn't mean that you don't or can't use pedal!!!


1. The OP hasn't indicated what edition he's using so we don't even know if the pedal indication is by Chopin unless one looks at a good urtext edition.

2. I looked at four different IMSLP heavily edited versions. They all had the same pedal indications as in the posted example and also included many obvious/straigthforward pedal indications. So I don't think we can conclude(not knowing which edition the OP is using) that any absence of pedal indications is just because the editor only marked out of the ordinary pedaling. I do think that some good pianists will use the pedal at the spot where the posted example omits the pedal.

3. I don't think it's clear from the posted score that one is supposed to hold the pedal through the A flat and A natural.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/05/17 03:09 PM.
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