Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
97 registered members (90125, AprilE, anotherscott, brendon, 7uturu, BarryR, ando, 26 invisible), 1,187 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: peterws] #2684732
10/24/17 04:09 PM
10/24/17 04:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,138
Connecticut, USA
scorpio Offline
1000 Post Club Member
scorpio  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,138
Connecticut, USA
Is it not true that the buffer size is dependent on the sample rate? So if Phil Best is running Pianoteq Pro at a sample rate of 192,000Hz, a buffer
size of 512 or 1024 is not out of the realm of normal. But at a sample rate of 48,000Hz, that buffer size becomes a problem.

I do not have Pro, so I can not test 192K Hz. What I just tried, when running 48K Hz, my optimal buffer size is 192-256 samples; but for
96K Hz, the optimal buffer size is 384-512. Both optimal settings work without lag or issue. So I would assume Phil is correct for a 192K Hz sample rate.

But I am no expert on this... so I could be out completely wrong here.


Kawai MP11 : JBL LSR305 : Focusrite 2i4 : Pianoteq Standard

We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. Willy Wonka


[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: EssBrace] #2684733
10/24/17 04:17 PM
10/24/17 04:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,104
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Doug M.  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,104
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by Doug M.
:
Originally Posted by Phil Best on YouTube

o If soundcard 512 sample rate buffer doesn't work, try setting it to 1024 samples.



1024 buffer size?! You could practically play a note, make a cup of tea and come back in time to hear it. laugh


I thought this was very odd advice! Surely the lower the number, the fewer problems you will get. Phil must be getting confused due to all the money PianoTeq keeps sending him (to demonstrate the product with all sorts of post effects and refinements etc - verging perilously close to being misleading IMO).


It's just as likely I added extra chats from another forum and didn't fact check it. I've rechecked Phil's video comment threads and can't find the two bits of information you guys picked up on. However, the other comments I refound and can confirm their source. Didn't want to misquote him, so I'm glad I reread the posts


Bottom line anyway:
1) post-processing
2) Big CPU and SSD
3) High spec audio interface makes a difference.

Last edited by Doug M.; 10/24/17 04:17 PM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: anotherscott] #2684778
10/24/17 07:50 PM
10/24/17 07:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
A
arc7urus Offline
500 Post Club Member
arc7urus  Offline
500 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Particularly if your internal drive is a typical hard drive (i.e. not SSD), large streaming libraries can work best on their own external storage device, assuming it's a fast drive, over a fast connection, because the OS frequently accesses the internal drive for VM/swapfile usage. The external drive's seeks would be exclusive to the piano library, and would not be interrupted by other tasks.


Clarifying, the OS (windows) frequently accesses the SATA HDD for virtual machine/swapfiles i.e., software files acting as RAM does but it is running on the hard drive itself instead of in RAM? Therefore, any drive running windows might use VM/swapfiles often; however, if you only have VSTs on an external, the OS wont' access VM/swap files on the external, only the piano library. This makes it easier on the CPU? Is that it?


Originally Posted by anotherscott
Basically, that is my understanding, yes. I don't think it technically is making things any "easier" on the CPU (more likely its making things easier on the hard disk controller if anything), but it should reduce the likelihood of glitches in the piano playback, which is really the point.


This is not entirely true. Some remarks...

- I do not understand the reference to virtual machines and swap files here. If the goal is to maximize performance then using or running a VM alongside a VST would be out of question. And a swap file is only a performance limiting factor on overloaded and/or systems that do not have enough RAM.

- Sample-based VST are CPU and data-intensive. Pianoteq is just CPU-intensive. So VSTs need plenty of RAM (16-32 GB). VSTs and PT both need a mid-range multi-core CPU. This would be no issue on most recent desktop configurations, but may be a major issue in laptops and older computers.

- A critical performance factor is having the VST sample libraries on fast storage. A discussion about using SSD or an hard disk to store VST libraries, such as Garritan's ~130 GB library, made sense a couple of years ago. It makes no sense nowadays since SSDs are relatively cost-efficient and 130 GB is not that much data anyway. So, use internal SSD storage.

- If SSD storage is not an option, then a fast (7200 rpm), internal, secondary hard disk would be the next option. This means having a one internal hard disk with the VST libraries and another with the operating system and applications. A single SSD setup would outperform two hard disks. Having two SSDs is the overkill solution and would not significantly outperform a setup with a single SSD. The bottleneck in this case would be the CPU.

- External hard disk storage is the last resort option and only makes sense for laptops that have a single hard disk. This setup will underperform when compared to any of the above internal storage solutions and may cause "glitches" due to the way USB works and the way VST applications read the sample data. Avoiding those "glitches" means adding extra processing buffers. But that means adding latency to the audio pipeline. Note that standard external drives do not remove any load from the CPU. Quite the opposite. Yes, there are external storage setups that would be suitable for this task but I guess we are talking about standard home computing setups here...

- Finally, even if CPU, RAM and SSD storage are in order, then the MIDI and audio pipelines need to be working properly. This is when the ASIO drivers come into play and when having a dedicated sound card with proper drivers and/or a higher-end motherboard begins to matter...

Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: arc7urus] #2684783
10/24/17 08:06 PM
10/24/17 08:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,794
A
anotherscott Online content
4000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,794
Originally Posted by arc_turus
I do not understand the reference to virtual machines and swap files here. If the goal is to maximize performance then using or running a VM alongside a VST would be out of question. And a swap file is only a performance limiting factor on overloaded and/or systems that do not have enough RAM.

I believe he meant to say "virtual memory" not "virtual machine". And at least on a Mac, OS X goes out to the drive frequently, even when very little is running, and I believe the same is true of current Windows.

Originally Posted by arc_turus
Sample-based VST are CPU and data-intensive. Pianoteq is just CPU-intensive.

Yes, I was referring to running a sample library, not Pianoteq.

Originally Posted by arc_turus
If SSD storage is not an option, then a fast (7200 rpm), internal, secondary hard disk would be the next option. ... - External hard disk storage is the last resort option and only makes sense for laptops that have a single hard disk. This setup will underperform when compared to any of the above internal storage solutions and may cause "glitches" due to the way USB works

Yes, when I said "external" that was short-hand for "second." The second can certainly be internal if there's room for it, and I agree, it should be better. Though USB3 (or firewire) should work well.

Originally Posted by arc_turus
Finally, even if CPU, RAM and SSD storage are in order, then the MIDI and audio pipelines need to be working properly. This is when the ASIO drivers come into play and when having a dedicated sound card with proper drivers and/or a higher-end motherboard begins to matter...

Or a Mac, where you don't have to worry about ASIO or sound card or drivers.

(ad) SWEETWATER
Easy Monthly Payments on Keyboards & Synthesizers
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: arc7urus] #2684784
10/24/17 08:12 PM
10/24/17 08:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 986
Milano
N
newer player Offline
500 Post Club Member
newer player  Offline
500 Post Club Member
N

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 986
Milano
Originally Posted by arc_turus

- Sample-based VST are CPU and data-intensive. Pianoteq is just CPU-intensive. So VSTs need plenty of RAM (16-32 GB). VSTs and PT both need a mid-range multi-core CPU. This would be no issue on most recent desktop configurations, but may be a major issue in laptops and older computers.

- A critical performance factor is having the VST sample libraries on fast storage. A discussion about using SSD or an hard disk to store VST libraries, such as Garritan's ~130 GB library, made sense a couple of years ago. It makes no sense nowadays since SSDs are relatively cost-efficient and 130 GB is not that much data anyway. So, use internal SSD storage.

- If SSD storage is not an option, then a fast (7200 rpm), internal, secondary hard disk would be the next option. This means having a one internal hard disk with the VST libraries and another with the operating system and applications. A single SSD setup would outperform two hard disks. Having two SSDs is the overkill solution and would not significantly outperform a setup with a single SSD. The bottleneck in this case would be the CPU.


Very helpful post @arc_turus.

I would emphasize that tweaking a Windows system for low latency performance is a fundamental first step. And that buying ultra-high performance parts will not necessarily provide better performance.

On my Windows laptops , I found the slower 850 EVO sata and faster 961 nvme samsung SSDs provided same low-latency performance on VIs such as Garritan CFX & PianoTeq. Also 8GB and 32GB RAM performed the same. A good desktop generally can take advantage of these upgraded components.

A few caveats:

- it took me a long time to optimize the laptop for low latency performance

- ended up buying a good MIDI interface (for the RME ASIO drivers)

- Dell, Microsoft, and Intel drivers-patches improved a lot for these laptops over the past year so that boosted performance

Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: newer player] #2684832
10/25/17 06:23 AM
10/25/17 06:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,085
uk south
D
dire tonic Offline
3000 Post Club Member
dire tonic  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,085
uk south
Originally Posted by newer player
I would emphasize that tweaking a Windows system for low latency performance is a fundamental first step. And that buying ultra-high performance parts will not necessarily provide better performance.

I'd say YMMV. Aside from setting power options to high performance* and adjusting cpu scheduling to background services (takes 30 seconds on a bad day) I've never treated tweaking as a fundamental first step since every PC I've purchased over the last 5 years (3 laptops, 1 desktop) has worked out of the box with Asio4all driver.

If what I read here from time to time is true, it's seemingly possible to buy a fairly high performance PC and still have a problem. Maybe then worry about the zillion possible tweaks (there are plenty of sources) or consider doing a clean o.s. install. I'd prefer the latter as a starting point anyway since so much junk seems to find its way onto new PCs.

*forgot to mention: might be necessary to disable cpu throttling in the bios...

Last edited by dire tonic; 10/25/17 06:31 AM.
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: peterws] #2684891
10/25/17 11:40 AM
10/25/17 11:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,254
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
7000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,254
Raleigh, North Carolina
Dire: I find that to be true on recent-vintage PCs
Quote
I've never treated tweaking as a fundamental first step since every PC I've purchased over the last 5 years (3 laptops, 1 desktop) has worked out of the box with Asio4all driver.

I had to do quite a bit of tweaking on an older, lesser computer. My 2005-vintage Dell laptop had a 1.7 GHz Duo processor and 2 GB RAM running XP. I had to use an external audio interface (Presonus), without which the latency was around 30 msec. With the Presonus, and after some tweaks I could reliable run at 18 msec latency without crackles. I had to tweak quite a bit, including the shutdown of unnecessary services, etc. I looked at all the usual suspects that are oft quoted in white-papers on this subject.

But my 2010-vintage Windows 7 desktop needed no tweaking ... and it gave 2 msec latency with that same Presonus box.

And likewise for my 2017 replacement desktop running Windows 10. (But this one is near top-of-the-line. Far more than required for the job.)

Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: peterws] #2684893
10/25/17 11:46 AM
10/25/17 11:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,633
Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bSharp(C)yclist  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,633
Orange County, California
My SurfacePro 4 seems to run PT just fine I think, no lag, pops, etc. I just don't think it sounds as good as the internal sound of the Yamaha when using headphones. However, if I save the midi file, produce a wav file from PT and then listen to on my PC (Not SP4), it sounds better. I don't get it.


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
YouTube | SoundCloud
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2684940
10/25/17 02:50 PM
10/25/17 02:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,357
Groove On Online content
1000 Post Club Member
Groove On  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
My SurfacePro 4 seems to run PT just fine I think, no lag, pops, etc. I just don't think it sounds as good as the internal sound of the Yamaha when using headphones. However, if I save the midi file, produce a wav file from PT and then listen to on my PC (Not SP4), it sounds better. I don't get it.

The internal audio components of your Yamaha and your PC may be much better than the Surface Pro 4. Have you tried it with an external USB Audio Interface to see if there is a difference?

Using head phones - I prefer the sound of Pianoteq/Macbook Air over my Roland FP-30. But with my Linux box the built-in audio card wasn't cutting it and I had to purchase an audio interface before I was satisfied. It was a big jump in sound quality. For comparison, when I tried the same audio interface on the Mac, there was only a small difference in sound quality.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: Doug M.] #2684942
10/25/17 02:56 PM
10/25/17 02:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 497
Mountain Time, USA
OneWatt Online content
Bronze Subscriber
OneWatt  Online Content
Bronze Subscriber

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 497
Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by OneWatt
Originally Posted by Falsch
...Now that I'm used to this, my previous MP7 sounds a bit dull and sometimes with 'not enough life' in comparison, even though its resonances are better than most others, notably Yamaha.


FWIW, if you haven't tweaked the EQ and various other "presence"-oriented EFX on the MP7 you're missing some great sounding responsive piano playing. Until I made time to do this my MP7 sounded dull at times too. -OneWatt


I'd be interested to know what exactly you did to the EQ & EFX?


Doug - I'll take my reply to a new topic to avoid getting in the way of this one... - OneWatt

Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2684946
10/25/17 03:13 PM
10/25/17 03:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
A
arc7urus Offline
500 Post Club Member
arc7urus  Offline
500 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
My SurfacePro 4 seems to run PT just fine I think, no lag, pops, etc. I just don't think it sounds as good as the internal sound of the Yamaha when using headphones. However, if I save the midi file, produce a wav file from PT and then listen to on my PC (Not SP4), it sounds better. I don't get it.


The majority of laptops have low-end sound cards/sound chipsets along with insufficient amplification to properly drive headphones, even low impedance headphones. Since you like how PT sounds in your PC you are likely experiencing this problem with the Surface Pro - I have the same audio quality issues on my two (Windows) laptops.

So, I suggest you connect a USB Digital to Analog Converter (with amplification) to the SP4 and use it to drive your headphones.

Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: peterws] #2684965
10/25/17 04:23 PM
10/25/17 04:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,633
Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bSharp(C)yclist  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,633
Orange County, California
Thanks arc, and Groove. I've considered getting an interface, just never got around to doing it. I'll have to look into that or a USB DAC some more.


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
YouTube | SoundCloud
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Re: Which DP comes closest . . . [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2684974
10/25/17 05:02 PM
10/25/17 05:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,296
Northern England.
peterws Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
peterws  Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,296
Northern England.
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
My SurfacePro 4 seems to run PT just fine I think, no lag, pops, etc. I just don't think it sounds as good as the internal sound of the Yamaha when using headphones. However, if I save the midi file, produce a wav file from PT and then listen to on my PC (Not SP4), it sounds better. I don't get it.


At last! A response! I strongly suspected that Yamahas might rival Pianoteq as the default go-to, if the worst came to pass. It was always my return-to after a spell on the software device whilst I had them. There were perceived similarities between Pianoteq D4 particularly in the upper registers.
I can't really understand the problems you folk have with latency; my old well used 2008 lappie, an Acer Aspire, is still continually running silently day and night and gives virtually no bother. Latency listed at 1.3ms.
Wish my car heater fan was as quiet . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
ad
Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Lessons Online

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Horugel grand piano
by Harv. 01/18/19 08:31 PM
Christian Zacharias on Schubert
by David-G. 01/18/19 06:09 PM
Is there a lock to keep a grand piano fallboard open?
by LearnPianoLive. 01/18/19 05:59 PM
Ravel - Pavane
by Moo :). 01/18/19 04:51 PM
Solo Piano Arrangement of Misty
by JazzPianoOnline. 01/18/19 03:21 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics189,653
Posts2,783,391
Members92,155
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2