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How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? #2683387
10/19/17 07:38 PM
10/19/17 07:38 PM
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My teacher recommends that I buy an acoustic grand piano (of course.. :)) or at least keep the digital piano sound at the 'same level' as a acoustic grand piano.

My question is: how can I judge if the DP sound level is right? What is a typical dB level for say a 7' acoustic grand piano for the middle C for normal velocity (say 64 on the scale of 0-127)? I have a sound meter and I can see the Velocity in Pianoteq - so I can probably adjust the volume of the amps by using this.

Thanks,
Osho


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683393
10/19/17 08:18 PM
10/19/17 08:18 PM
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Don't worry about it too much, just make your best guess based on your experience playing loud, medium and soft on a real grand. As long as it feels fairly close, you won't be at disadvantage when you play on an acoustic grand. Don't forget that acoustic pianos vary as well - there is no "standard" volume for pianos.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683397
10/19/17 08:50 PM
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Thanks for the response, but I really would like to know this as it will also give me some ideas about how the volume will be if I bought an acoustic grand.

Thanks
Osho


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683399
10/19/17 08:58 PM
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Depends on the piano, and where you're measuring, and how hard you think velocity "64" should be. But I'd say probably something around 70 dB should get you close.

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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683402
10/19/17 09:24 PM
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Normal piano practice is 60 - 70 dB.

Fortissimo is 92 - 95 dB.

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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683404
10/19/17 09:26 PM
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That's great - Thanks!!


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683442
10/20/17 03:33 AM
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I just set my speakers to +/-0 dB and turn my audio interface all the way up (which should also be -0 dB).
So, just do not remove any volume until the sound is put out, that should be relatively close I guess. Well, at least if you do not have a PA. My setup is 2x Adam A5X and Steinberg UR22 mkII USB-Interface.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683450
10/20/17 05:04 AM
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Simple answer: Loud.

The p...ppp range needs to be in your fingers, not in the volume control.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683852
10/21/17 01:30 PM
10/21/17 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Osho
My teacher recommends that I buy an acoustic grand piano (of course.. :)) or at least keep the digital piano sound at the 'same level' as a acoustic grand piano.

My question is: how can I judge if the DP sound level is right? What is a typical dB level for say a 7' acoustic grand piano for the middle C for normal velocity (say 64 on the scale of 0-127)? I have a sound meter and I can see the Velocity in Pianoteq - so I can probably adjust the volume of the amps by using this.

Thanks,
Osho

Osho,

Sorry to disagree with some comments here. It is impossible to duplicate the acoustic volume of a grand piano or even a vertical piano. If you try to the what you are doing is getting your brain to accept the digital piano's perceived volume as equivalent which it is not. Only some of the digital's frequencies will be interpreted as equal but this is false. In addition you would require an amplifier and speaker system of thousands of watts to get near the acoustic volume because of intermodulation distortion. You do not require to match any acoustic piano volume. Just set your digital model to a level that sounds normal for the room you are in and without any distortion.

Ian


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683864
10/21/17 02:22 PM
10/21/17 02:22 PM
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On another front, car purists demand that electric cars be retrofitted with sound systems to recreate the noise of a gasoline or diesel motor.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Dave Horne] #2683869
10/21/17 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
On another front, car purists demand that electric cars be retrofitted with sound systems to recreate the noise of a gasoline or diesel motor.

Some petrol cars have a sport sound option too!

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Beemer] #2683874
10/21/17 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
It is impossible to duplicate the acoustic volume of a grand piano or even a vertical piano...........you would require an amplifier and speaker system of thousands of watts to get near the acoustic volume


How can this be so? You can play a piano, forte, in a fairly small practice room without it being uncomfortable or - I'd have thought - dangerous if not over very long periods. But if you mounted a sound system with 'thousands of watts' in a small practice room, you'd blow your head off, almost literally. You'd certainly damage your hearing pretty quickly wouldn't you?


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Beemer] #2683875
10/21/17 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
....you would require an amplifier and speaker system of thousands of watts to get near the acoustic volume....


Thousands of watts?! I really think this is rather an exaggerated statement.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683876
10/21/17 02:52 PM
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Snap smile


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683889
10/21/17 03:55 PM
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A typical grand piano at maximum possible loudness radiates approximately 0.3 Watt, yielding a sound power level of about 115dB and a sound pressure level of 104dB at one metre.

To reproduce that sound level at the same spot in the room depends solely on the efficiency of the speakers. It could take anywhere from 8 watts to 250 watts. My speakers are only rated at 83dB, that is an efficiency of 0.126% so 0.3 Watts acoustic power radiated requires 240 Watts amplifier output.

A speaker rated at 105dB would require only 1.5 Watts to achieve the same volume level at the same distance from the speaker.

Let’s use facts people, not guesses.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683890
10/21/17 04:05 PM
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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: prout] #2683891
10/21/17 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by prout

Let’s use facts people, not guesses.


Fine by me, yes........so how many watts' would you need to get 104db at one metre distance from a speaker column giving a fair representation of a grand piano in terms of frequency range, using speakers of typical efficiency for this purpose?


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: spanishbuddha] #2683892
10/21/17 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
On another front, car purists demand that electric cars be retrofitted with sound systems to recreate the noise of a gasoline or diesel motor.

Some petrol cars have a sport sound option too!


I used to create the sound of an imminent mechanical failure when my dad was driving our ole banger. It was worth a wack across the head . . . .


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: toddy] #2683901
10/21/17 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by prout

Let’s use facts people, not guesses.


Fine by me, yes........so how many watts' would you need to get 104db at one metre distance from a speaker column giving a fair representation of a grand piano in terms of frequency range, using speakers of typical efficiency for this purpose?
Typical modern speaker efficiencies range from .2% to 2%, studio monitors being the least efficient (and most accurate) and home theatre speakers most efficient (and least accurate). This is just a cross-section of what is available. Some high efficiency speakers are very good.

My piano (a M&H BB 7’ grand) produces 104dB at one metre (I just checked it again a moment ago.) I need 240 watts to get the same SPL from my speakers at one metre.

If your speakers are in the 94dB efficiency range (typical of modern home speakers), that is, 1.6%, then 20 Watts ought to do it.

Last edited by prout; 10/21/17 05:01 PM.
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: prout] #2683904
10/21/17 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Typical modern speaker efficiencies range from .2% to 2%, studio monitors being the least efficient (and most accurate) and home theatre speakers most efficient (and least accurate). This is just a cross-section of what is available. Some high effeciency speakers are very good.

My piano (a M&H BB 7’ grand) produces 104dB at one metre (I just checked it again a moment ago.) I need 240 watts to get the same SPL from my speakers at one metre.

If your speakers are in the 94dB effeciency range (typical of modern home speakers), that is, 1.6%, then 20 Watts ought to do it.


Thank you for that information. The part about speaker efficiency was particularly interesting.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683906
10/21/17 05:08 PM
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Just remember that a change of 3dB in efficiency is a doubling or halving of power required, and a 10 dB change either requires 1/10 the power, or 10 times the power.

To produce a peak piano sound at 110dB, requires 10,000 times the power as normal practice at 70dB, and 100,000 times the power of playing softly. Your hands really do have to be sensitive to, and able to produce those extremes. Truly soft playing (1,000,000 times less power than peak) requires a very finely regulated acoustic grand and a fine pianist.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683909
10/21/17 05:15 PM
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Yes indeed. The decibel scale always looks so 'compressed'. But I suppose this suits the fact that our ears accommodate vast changes in power and are still able to detect detail at tiny levels of sound power.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: toddy] #2683912
10/21/17 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Yes indeed. The decibel scale always looks so 'compressed'. But I suppose this suits the fact that our ears accommodate vast changes in power and are still able to detect detail at tiny levels of sound power.
Yes, absolutely. What many don’t know is that our ears ‘loud’ and ‘soft’ adapt in the same way ours eyes ‘light’ and ‘dark’ adapt. I don’t know how long it takes to change, but I did a recital in a very small chamber hall, starting off with clavichord, then harpsichord, then grand piano, all French repertiore. The audience actually collectively gasped at the huge volume of the harpsichord (the first piece had a large opening flourish) after having listened to twenty minutes of clavichord music.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683916
10/21/17 05:44 PM
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It also takes more power (and a more capable LF speaker) to get a low frequency to a certain volume than to get a high frequency to the same volume level.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: anotherscott] #2683921
10/21/17 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
It also takes more power (and a more capable LF speaker) to get a low frequency to a certain volume than to get a high frequency to the same volume level.
Yes.

Our hearing evolved specifically to respond more acutely to a certain range of frequencies. In fact, we hear best in the range of about 1000Hz to 4000Hz with the peak response at a little over 3000Hz. We hear very poorly at frequencies much below 100Hz, so it takes a lot more power (10,000,000 times more power) to hear the same quiet volume 20Hz tone that we hear at 3000Hz.

If your low frequency woofer is large, it takes more power to push the piston against the air and acoustic suspension, if that is the technique used in your woofer. I have a sub-woofer that produces 3000 Watts peak at <1/2% distortion at 15Hz which can be clearly felt, though not really heard. That is coupled with my 500 Watt amps for my main tower speakers and 65 Watts for my centre and surrounds. They all produce a nice, loud, but certainly not ear splitting volume. I never get tired listening to them.

Last edited by prout; 10/21/17 06:11 PM.
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683927
10/21/17 06:28 PM
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Your teacher is correct.

1). The next time you have some time with an acoustic piano, place the sound level measurement device on the music stand and play a two-handed C chord as loud as you can. Remember the measured level.

2). Back at the ranch, put it on your digital and set the volume to match when you play the same FFF chord.

That's it. Your technique will love you for it.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683946
10/21/17 08:28 PM
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I'm supposing you can put the meter over the headphones and strike the same chords for an accurate measurement?

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683949
10/21/17 08:35 PM
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Wow! Twenty seven posts on the subject of how to adjust a volume control.

I'm off now to visit and contribute to how-to-screw-in-a-lightbulb.com smile

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683951
10/21/17 08:47 PM
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It takes a minimum of three people to replace a light bulb, but only two to adjust the volume control on a DP.

Obviously, some DPs are easier to adjust than others......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683966
10/21/17 10:04 PM
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I much prefer acoustic grands. They only require one to ten fingers to adjust the volume. It’s sad that DPs don’t work that way too.

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