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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683906
10/21/17 04:08 PM
10/21/17 04:08 PM
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Just remember that a change of 3dB in efficiency is a doubling or halving of power required, and a 10 dB change either requires 1/10 the power, or 10 times the power.

To produce a peak piano sound at 110dB, requires 10,000 times the power as normal practice at 70dB, and 100,000 times the power of playing softly. Your hands really do have to be sensitive to, and able to produce those extremes. Truly soft playing (1,000,000 times less power than peak) requires a very finely regulated acoustic grand and a fine pianist.

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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683909
10/21/17 04:15 PM
10/21/17 04:15 PM
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Yes indeed. The decibel scale always looks so 'compressed'. But I suppose this suits the fact that our ears accommodate vast changes in power and are still able to detect detail at tiny levels of sound power.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: toddy] #2683912
10/21/17 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Yes indeed. The decibel scale always looks so 'compressed'. But I suppose this suits the fact that our ears accommodate vast changes in power and are still able to detect detail at tiny levels of sound power.
Yes, absolutely. What many don’t know is that our ears ‘loud’ and ‘soft’ adapt in the same way ours eyes ‘light’ and ‘dark’ adapt. I don’t know how long it takes to change, but I did a recital in a very small chamber hall, starting off with clavichord, then harpsichord, then grand piano, all French repertiore. The audience actually collectively gasped at the huge volume of the harpsichord (the first piece had a large opening flourish) after having listened to twenty minutes of clavichord music.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683916
10/21/17 04:44 PM
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It also takes more power (and a more capable LF speaker) to get a low frequency to a certain volume than to get a high frequency to the same volume level.

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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: anotherscott] #2683921
10/21/17 05:10 PM
10/21/17 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
It also takes more power (and a more capable LF speaker) to get a low frequency to a certain volume than to get a high frequency to the same volume level.
Yes.

Our hearing evolved specifically to respond more acutely to a certain range of frequencies. In fact, we hear best in the range of about 1000Hz to 4000Hz with the peak response at a little over 3000Hz. We hear very poorly at frequencies much below 100Hz, so it takes a lot more power (10,000,000 times more power) to hear the same quiet volume 20Hz tone that we hear at 3000Hz.

If your low frequency woofer is large, it takes more power to push the piston against the air and acoustic suspension, if that is the technique used in your woofer. I have a sub-woofer that produces 3000 Watts peak at <1/2% distortion at 15Hz which can be clearly felt, though not really heard. That is coupled with my 500 Watt amps for my main tower speakers and 65 Watts for my centre and surrounds. They all produce a nice, loud, but certainly not ear splitting volume. I never get tired listening to them.

Last edited by prout; 10/21/17 05:11 PM.
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683927
10/21/17 05:28 PM
10/21/17 05:28 PM
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Your teacher is correct.

1). The next time you have some time with an acoustic piano, place the sound level measurement device on the music stand and play a two-handed C chord as loud as you can. Remember the measured level.

2). Back at the ranch, put it on your digital and set the volume to match when you play the same FFF chord.

That's it. Your technique will love you for it.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683946
10/21/17 07:28 PM
10/21/17 07:28 PM
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I'm supposing you can put the meter over the headphones and strike the same chords for an accurate measurement?

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683949
10/21/17 07:35 PM
10/21/17 07:35 PM
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Wow! Twenty seven posts on the subject of how to adjust a volume control.

I'm off now to visit and contribute to how-to-screw-in-a-lightbulb.com smile

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683951
10/21/17 07:47 PM
10/21/17 07:47 PM
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It takes a minimum of three people to replace a light bulb, but only two to adjust the volume control on a DP.

Obviously, some DPs are easier to adjust than others......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683966
10/21/17 09:04 PM
10/21/17 09:04 PM
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I much prefer acoustic grands. They only require one to ten fingers to adjust the volume. It’s sad that DPs don’t work that way too.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2683970
10/21/17 09:17 PM
10/21/17 09:17 PM
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Pretty funny...

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: anotherscott] #2684011
10/22/17 02:39 AM
10/22/17 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
It also takes more power (and a more capable LF speaker) to get a low frequency to a certain volume than to get a high frequency to the same volume level.


You only have to listen to or play digital church organs to realise they didn't even come close . . . maybe they do now.


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: peterws] #2684035
10/22/17 07:35 AM
10/22/17 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by anotherscott
It also takes more power (and a more capable LF speaker) to get a low frequency to a certain volume than to get a high frequency to the same volume level.


You only have to listen to or play digital church organs to realise they didn't even come close . . . maybe they do now.
Ditgital enhancement of pipe organs is now commonplace. Digital ranks (modelled sounds and a great audio reproduction system) are added to the pipe organ chambers. They can be any type of rank of of pipes, but are often used for ultra low pitches (32’ ranks which go down to C0 or about 16Hz), which would take too much space to install. The neat thing is that the software monitors the pitch of the individual nearby resl pipes and automatically adjusts the pitches of the individual digital pipes to match. This is necessary due to hude changes in temperature and humidity typical in a church.

I have played many of these new mixed organs, and it is hard to tell any difference between the real and the digital sounds.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: prout] #2750698
07/10/18 11:53 PM
07/10/18 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
My piano (a M&H BB 7’ grand) produces 104dB at one metre (I just checked it again a moment ago.) I need 240 watts to get the same SPL from my speakers at one metre.

If your speakers are in the 94dB efficiency range (typical of modern home speakers), that is, 1.6%, then 20 Watts ought to do it.


Most sound pressure level meters are poor at capturing very brief peaks, even when they are in "peak" mode. So 20 watts into 94 dB speakers might give you the same sound pressure level READING as your grand piano, but imo that 20 watts will utterly fail to deliver the very brief transient peaks that are part of the piano's timbre. Those very brief transient peaks convey "liveliness". A sound system with virtually no headroom may sound "as LOUD as" the real thing yet not begin to sound "as LIVELY as" the real thing. There's more to it than just headroom of course, but imo that's a basic piece of the puzze.

Last edited by Duke LeJeune; 07/10/18 11:57 PM.

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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2750700
07/11/18 12:16 AM
07/11/18 12:16 AM
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Just be extra careful not to damage your hearing. Err of the side of caution. If you damage your hearing or end up with chronic ringing or humming in your ears driving you crazy, you'll never forgive yourself.

Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Bosendorff] #2750735
07/11/18 06:48 AM
07/11/18 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
[Linked Image]


Bearing in mind that the decibel scale is logarithmic, these differences are quite startling.

Here is a reference for how these values compare to other sound volumes:

Noise comparisons


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Bosendorff] #2750746
07/11/18 09:16 AM
07/11/18 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
[Linked Image]


What's the difference between 'decibel level' and 'decibel sound pressure level'?

I mean, what is the first column 'decibel level' a measure of if not 'sound pressure'?

(I realize that decibels, of themselves, are a ratio scale that can be applied to almost anything, but that's not the case here, where we are discussing acoustics and only acoustics)


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Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: toddy] #2750755
07/11/18 10:34 AM
07/11/18 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
[Linked Image]


What's the difference between 'decibel level' and 'decibel sound pressure level'?

I mean, what is the first column 'decibel level' a measure of if not 'sound pressure'?

(I realize that decibels, of themselves, are a ratio scale that can be applied to almost anything, but that's not the case here, where we are discussing acoustics and only acoustics)


Musicians guide to decibels


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Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Duke LeJeune] #2750777
07/11/18 12:05 PM
07/11/18 12:05 PM
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Quote
Most sound pressure level meters are poor at capturing very brief peaks, even when they are in "peak" mode. So 20 watts into 94 dB speakers might give you the same sound pressure level READING as your grand piano, but imo that 20 watts will utterly fail to deliver the very brief transient peaks that are part of the piano's timbre. Those very brief transient peaks convey "liveliness". A sound system with virtually no headroom may sound "as LOUD as" the real thing yet not begin to sound "as LIVELY as" the real thing. There's more to it than just headroom of course, but imo that's a basic piece of the puzzel.


And this is one reason why the headphone outputs of DPs just don't cut it like a good dedicated headphone amp with lots of reserve capacitance and a beefy power supply. On the amp/speaker side there might be a few extreme high end amps that put out a maximum of 20 watts that have enough reserve for those peaks, but I'd guess a true 60 watts per channel rating audiophile amp would be needed. Even a 200 watt rated consumer amp might not be able to handle transients well.

Last edited by NormB; 07/11/18 12:11 PM.
Re: How loud should the DP be to simulate a grand piano? [Re: Osho] #2750779
07/11/18 12:07 PM
07/11/18 12:07 PM
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This "How to adjust a volume control" thread died last October. Thankfully.

Now it's resurrected? Why?

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