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Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? #2683258
10/19/17 07:12 AM
10/19/17 07:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 12
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vibraverse Offline OP
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Hey folks,

I'm currently looking after the best value I can get for my budget of 2000 € (~2300 US-$). I want to practice the piano with a key action that's as realistic as possible and control mostly software pianos inside my DAW with it.
At the moment I got a keyboard with a so called "half-weighted" action (Nektar Impact LX88+) on which it's impossible to have any good fine control over dynamics.

I nailed down my search to two candidates:
- Kawai MP11
or
- Kawai VPC1

I had only the opportunity to test out the Grand Feel II action at a music store near me, which I was really impressed with (in comparison to the action of the Roland FP90, Kawai ES8 and some Yamaha actions).
I also heard, that the action of the MP11 should be a little beat nearer the Grand Feel II. Also I would have onboard sounds, which I probably won't use that much anyway.
The RM3 Grand II of the VPC1 is said to be a little more on the heavy side (which could be a plus for practicing).

It's probably not worth to invest a considerable greater amount of money (+500€ or +590$) to have a little better keyboard and onboard sounds I maybe don't really need.

If I knew, that a VPC2 with the Grand Feel action of the MP11 would be released until the end of this year or very early 2018, I would most definitely choose that.
Else I probably would get a VPC1 and some solid software pianos, which I could then also more easily use inside my productions.

So, knowing if there is any possibility of that happening would help me a great deal.

I hope someone could shed some light onto that matter.
Or do you have something else for me I could take into consideration?

Greetings
vibraverse

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Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683273
10/19/17 09:18 AM
10/19/17 09:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,021
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Basically, if you don't want a cabinet piano---welcome btw---then you'll likely want the MP11SE and the Grand Feel I key action. The other option is the CA67 cabinet model which has the Grand Feel II. The VPC2 is not coming any time soon. Out of the two, the MP11 is better to play as a piano than the VPC1.

The MP12 will not be out for a year or two. In order to include a grand feel II or III action, the MP11 will need a new casing, and Kawai aren't going to redesign one: instead, they've released the MP11SE which has all sorts of improvements except the action.

Out of the two actions, the MP11SE (grand feel I) is lighter than the VPC1 (RM3 Grand II). This is because of longer key length giving a key pivot point more in line with a Kawai acoustic. Also, you might like some of the MP11SE sounds: the e-pianos are especially good, as are the organs. The only benefit of the VPC1 is the programmable velocity curve.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: Doug M.] #2683286
10/19/17 10:01 AM
10/19/17 10:01 AM
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Posts: 348
Milwaukee, WI
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Pologuy Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Also, you might like some of the MP11SE sounds: the e-pianos are especially good, as are the organs.


The MP11SE has organs...?


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683288
10/19/17 10:05 AM
10/19/17 10:05 AM
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vibraverse Offline OP
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The price of the CA67 is unfortunately a little bit over my budget and I should be able to transport the keyboard when I move sometime. (plus it's hardly compatible with my setup of PC + studio monitors, in front of which I'll be liking to play it)

I also looked at the MP11SE - and by the way, I can't see that it had any organ sounds (which would be a plus). But I'm afraid that the price will be well above 2000€ when it is released, and thus break my budget.
The MP11 is very inexpensive right now and I could get one for only 1900€ (from thomann), which is the cheapest you can get a Grand Feel keyboard at the moment as far as I know.

That's still 500€ more expensive than the VPC1. Do you really think that the keyboard is worth that price difference?

BTW: Thanks for the welcome wink

Last edited by vibraverse; 10/19/17 10:06 AM.
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Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683298
10/19/17 10:30 AM
10/19/17 10:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,021
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by vibraverse
The price of the CA67 is unfortunately a little bit over my budget and I should be able to transport the keyboard when I move sometime. (plus it's hardly compatible with my setup of PC + studio monitors, in front of which I'll be liking to play it)

I also looked at the MP11SE - and by the way, I can't see that it had any organ sounds (which would be a plus). But I'm afraid that the price will be well above 2000€ when it is released, and thus break my budget.
The MP11 is very inexpensive right now and I could get one for only 1900€ (from thomann), which is the cheapest you can get a Grand Feel keyboard at the moment as far as I know.

That's still 500€ more expensive than the VPC1. Do you really think that the keyboard is worth that price difference?

BTW: Thanks for the welcome wink


There are a few posts on Pianoworld that specifically go into the difference between the two actions (MP11 vs VPC1). Type something into the pianoworld search box, and I'm sure you'll find a post pretty quickly!


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: Doug M.] #2683299
10/19/17 10:32 AM
10/19/17 10:32 AM
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Tom Fort Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Basically, if you don't want a cabinet piano---welcome btw---then you'll likely want the MP11SE and the Grand Feel I key action. The other option is the CA67 cabinet model which has the Grand Feel II. The VPC2 is not coming any time soon. Out of the two, the MP11 is better to play as a piano than the VPC1.

The MP12 will not be out for a year or two. In order to include a grand feel II or III action, the MP11 will need a new casing, and Kawai aren't going to redesign one: instead, they've released the MP11SE which has all sorts of improvements except the action.

Out of the two actions, the MP11SE (grand feel I) is lighter than the VPC1 (RM3 Grand II). This is because of longer key length giving a key pivot point more in line with a Kawai acoustic. Also, you might like some of the MP11SE sounds: the e-pianos are especially good, as are the organs. The only benefit of the VPC1 is the programmable velocity curve.


It's interesting that you state the arrival dates of future pianos with such authority, can you share why you think so?

Personally, I am hoping for a VPC2 to be released either at NAMM in January or at Musikmesse in April. Don't have a good reason for thinking this, as the VPC does not have a lifecycle history to go on. Still, with the introduction of the GF Compact action, it seems Kawai is trying to improve their shorter wooden key actions and give them a longer pivot point that is more comparable to the GF2 actions. I'm hoping that as their premier piano controller, they'll go ahead and redesign the VPC cabinet and use the GF2, but it's equally likely that the newer GFC, which is shorter, could simply be used in the existing cabinet as a shorter-term solution.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683302
10/19/17 11:03 AM
10/19/17 11:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
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Tennessee
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brooster Offline
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Can the new pedal from the MP11SE work on the VPC1?


The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683305
10/19/17 11:13 AM
10/19/17 11:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 477
Los Angeles, CA
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Joe Garfield Offline
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Having owned an MP10 (same action as VPC) and now a CS11, and having played CS10 (same action as MP11), I would not get a VPC if you're looking for most realistic piano experience. The longer keys make a substantial difference - when you play chords (or notes) and your fingers are near or in between the black keys, the travel is short and requires a lot of force. I noticed it before playing the updated actions and I'm very experienced.

Maybe you can find a CA65? The CA series comes disassembled with assembly instructions in the box. Which means you can disassemble it again to move it.

The difference between MP11/CA65 and the newer CA67 actions is much more subtle than the difference between VPC1 and MP11.

MP10 did not have organs which was disappointing. My CS11 has organs and I really appreciate that. But since you're considering an instrument that has no onboard sounds and plan on using a computer anyway, the organs shouldn't be that big of a deal?

I think the difference in action is worth some money.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683307
10/19/17 11:23 AM
10/19/17 11:23 AM
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mcontraveos Offline
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Welcome to the board -- if you're concerned about money, then I think the smart buy is the VPC1. Having tried both actions extensively and owning the VPC1, I'll say these are both extremely responsive actions, and I rarely -- if at all -- feel my expression is limited by the keyboard.

MP11's onboard sounds might be good, and they have the benefit of being mated by Kawai to the action, but they aren't as complete as some of the software solutions out there. Keyboard controller and a sampled piano ended up being the more economically sound combination for me.

As far as the VPC2 goes, I'm not sure what would be introduced in that model to make it substantially better than the VPC1. I imagine it might include the MP11's action, in which case, I'd wait for everyone to place their orders for a VPC2, and pick up the VPC1 at what I imagine will be a steep discount.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: mcontraveos] #2683309
10/19/17 11:28 AM
10/19/17 11:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Originally Posted by mcontraveos

As far as the VPC2 goes, I'm not sure what would be introduced in that model to make it substantially better than the VPC1. I imagine it might include the MP11's action, in which case, I'd wait for everyone to place their orders for a VPC2, and pick up the VPC1 at what I imagine will be a steep discount.


I would love to see Novus NV10 action in VPC-2 - though this would likely never happpen as VPC2 will cannibalize the NV10 sales!

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: brooster] #2683311
10/19/17 11:37 AM
10/19/17 11:37 AM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by brooster
Can the new pedal from the MP11SE work on the VPC1?


Not likely at all, the vpc-1 uses the same f-30 as the MP11, and the mp11se's new pedal unit doesnt work with the MP11 (it had a new connector as it requires active power).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: Osho] #2683322
10/19/17 01:08 PM
10/19/17 01:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,618
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by mcontraveos

As far as the VPC2 goes, I'm not sure what would be introduced in that model to make it substantially better than the VPC1. I imagine it might include the MP11's action, in which case, I'd wait for everyone to place their orders for a VPC2, and pick up the VPC1 at what I imagine will be a steep discount.


I would love to see Novus NV10 action in VPC-2 - though this would likely never happpen as VPC2 will cannibalize the NV10 sales!

Osho

Already the sheer size of the action, both in depth and height, and the fact that you need a pedal rod to physically move the damper weights, is reason enough that this will never happen.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683324
10/19/17 01:12 PM
10/19/17 01:12 PM
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R111 Offline
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The rumors I've heard is that a VPC-2 is not coming anytime soon.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: R111] #2683329
10/19/17 01:30 PM
10/19/17 01:30 PM
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vibraverse Offline OP
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Originally Posted by R111
The rumors I've heard is that a VPC-2 is not coming anytime soon.


Okay, I wonder where you heard that? But it seems absolutely possible ..

In that case I'll maybe after all have a closer look at the MP11SE. I've heard some of the SK-EX and SK-5 samples, which appear to be a feature of the MP11SE, on the CA98 product page of KAWAI and they sound absolutely astonishing.

Maybe it's possible to stretch my budget a little bit and have a long-lasting (as in years), beautiful instrument after all.
Besides, the MP11SE should not be as expensive as the CA67, so maybe it won't be too much of a stretch.

Edit: It's called MP11SE, not MP11ES whome

Last edited by vibraverse; 10/19/17 01:47 PM.
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: brooster] #2683330
10/19/17 01:40 PM
10/19/17 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by brooster
Can the new pedal from the MP11SE work on the VPC1?


I'm sure someone will find some easy hacks. Either via the 6-pin din connector or reading the sensors directly.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683334
10/19/17 01:55 PM
10/19/17 01:55 PM
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Milwaukee, WI
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Pologuy Offline
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Originally Posted by vibraverse
In that case I'll maybe after all have a closer look at the MP11SE. I've heard some of the SK-EX and SK-5 samples, which appear to be a feature of the MP11SE, on the CA98 product page of KAWAI and they sound absolutely astonishing.


Unfortunately, the MP11SE will not have the new SK-EX Rendering piano sound engine with multi-channel sampling and resonance modelling that the new CA98 has - so those sample sounds are rather useless... frown


Looking to purchase: Kawai MP(12), or Kawai VPC(2), or Kawai Novus NV10, or something Yamaha...
Current: Yamaha Synthesizer
Previous: Kawai CP205, Kawai CP207, Yamaha Synthesizers
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: Pologuy] #2683345
10/19/17 02:31 PM
10/19/17 02:31 PM
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vibraverse Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Pologuy

Unfortunately, the MP11SE will not have the new SK-EX Rendering piano sound engine with multi-channel sampling and resonance modelling that the new CA98 has - so those sample sounds are rather useless... frown


Oh, okay, I see.
So I guess we have to wait until the samples are up one the product page. Or can we listen to them already somewhere?

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683346
10/19/17 02:35 PM
10/19/17 02:35 PM
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by vibraverse
Originally Posted by Pologuy

Unfortunately, the MP11SE will not have the new SK-EX Rendering piano sound engine with multi-channel sampling and resonance modelling that the new CA98 has - so those sample sounds are rather useless... frown


Oh, okay, I see.
So I guess we have to wait until the samples are up one the product page. Or can we listen to them already somewhere?

The sample sounds from the CA98 product page that are marked as "Sound Mode" (and those that have no mode marking at all) are the ones that should be equivalent to the MP11SE. That includes the SK-EX (with HI-XL), EX and SK-5. Only the ones marked "Pianist Mode" do not apply.

Last edited by JoBert; 10/19/17 02:37 PM.
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683347
10/19/17 02:35 PM
10/19/17 02:35 PM
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As has already been said, for a great piano simulation the VPC1 has rather short keys and because of that, there's a significant difference to the GF. Definitely worth the extra 500e in my opinion. I suppose on the music you play and your expectations, but while the VPC1 feels nice, for pieces that demand playing deep into the keys, the needed force changes too much compared to the front of the keys. It's too significant a difference to ignore.
As for the CA67, it might get discounted soon as it's successor enters the market, so it might be had for a similar price with the MP11SE. Just my guesstimate.

Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: mcoll] #2683358
10/19/17 03:04 PM
10/19/17 03:04 PM
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Marcos Daniel Offline
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I believe that in a couple of months, with MP11SE avaiable, MP11 price perhaps can go down a bit more... specially is the price point of MP11SE is the same of MP11.


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: Tom Fort] #2683366
10/19/17 03:43 PM
10/19/17 03:43 PM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Basically, if you don't want a cabinet piano---welcome btw---then you'll likely want the MP11SE and the Grand Feel I key action. The other option is the CA67 cabinet model which has the Grand Feel II. The VPC2 is not coming any time soon. Out of the two, the MP11 is better to play as a piano than the VPC1.

The MP12 will not be out for a year or two. In order to include a grand feel II or III action, the MP11 will need a new casing, and Kawai aren't going to redesign one: instead, they've released the MP11SE which has all sorts of improvements except the action.

Out of the two actions, the MP11SE (grand feel I) is lighter than the VPC1 (RM3 Grand II). This is because of longer key length giving a key pivot point more in line with a Kawai acoustic. Also, you might like some of the MP11SE sounds: the e-pianos are especially good, as are the organs. The only benefit of the VPC1 is the programmable velocity curve.


It's interesting that you state the arrival dates of future pianos with such authority, can you share why you think so?

Personally, I am hoping for a VPC2 to be released either at NAMM in January or at Musikmesse in April. Don't have a good reason for thinking this, as the VPC does not have a lifecycle history to go on. Still, with the introduction of the GF Compact action, it seems Kawai is trying to improve their shorter wooden key actions and give them a longer pivot point that is more comparable to the GF2 actions. I'm hoping that as their premier piano controller, they'll go ahead and redesign the VPC cabinet and use the GF2, but it's equally likely that the newer GFC, which is shorter, could simply be used in the existing cabinet as a shorter-term solution.


The question has been asked a few times already. As far as I remember, Kawai James indicated that there are no plans in the near future.

As for the new Kawai triple pedal, I read that it can be used with the older models if you open up the innards and do some electronics; however, it's not known if the software will cope.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Is there a chance for a VPC2 any time soon? [Re: vibraverse] #2683369
10/19/17 04:00 PM
10/19/17 04:00 PM
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Even if a VPC2 were announced in January it would not appear for months. My philosophy is, if you don’t need a new piano, don’t buy one. And if you do need a new piano, buy one that is available.


Rodney Sauer
Kawai KG-2E • Kawai ES8

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