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Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: staveoff] #2682652
10/16/17 05:28 PM
10/16/17 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by staveoff

I follow Tunelab into the treble for a time but then I ditch that near the high treble. Instead, I like to play a bass octave plus arpeggios in that key all the way up the keyboard. Whenever I do that I am "expecting" a certain sound at the top that I know immediately whether it is right or wrong (at least to my ears). I wouldn't be able to tell you what kind of octaves they are. My ears can't tell the difference between slight changes in the sound of the uppermost octaves (assuming that they are close to beatless) but I do know when they don't match the rest of the piano.


This method can lead to inconsistent results. Your sense of the right pitch will be different depending on what note melodies you play beforehand. It is much better to listen specifically to beats produced by specific intervals and to keep the tuning intervals following a systematic procedure.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 10/16/17 08:37 PM.

Chris Leslie
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http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
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Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Chris Leslie] #2682710
10/16/17 09:59 PM
10/16/17 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by staveoff

I follow Tunelab into the treble for a time but then I ditch that near the high treble. Instead, I like to play a bass octave plus arpeggios in that key all the way up the keyboard. Whenever I do that I am "expecting" a certain sound at the top that I know immediately whether it is right or wrong (at least to my ears). I wouldn't be able to tell you what kind of octaves they are. My ears can't tell the difference between slight changes in the sound of the uppermost octaves (assuming that they are close to beatless) but I do know when they don't match the rest of the piano.


This method can lead to inconsistent results. Your sense of the right pitch will be different depending on what note melodies you play beforehand. It is much better to listen specifically to beats produced by specific intervals and to keep the tuning intervals following a systematic procedure.



Thank you for the suggestion and no doubt you are correct. I just can't discern the high treble beats and I haven't spent the time trying out settings in Tunelab to suit my taste. Perhaps as per Bill's suggestion I can try triple octaves.


Piano Player and DIY tuner
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: BDB] #2682719
10/17/17 12:14 AM
10/17/17 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
The methods and techniques that I was criticizing were your explanations and writings. I have a college degree in literature, so I certainly have the knowledge, experience and understanding to do that.

LOL, "I have a college degree in literature so I am qualified to criticize Einstein's papers on relativity".
Sorry, I couldn't resist that, I'll stay out of this pseudo "discussion".

Kees

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #2682721
10/17/17 12:23 AM
10/17/17 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
You are certainly right about no person on earth being able to tune a M3 at exactly 6 bps but there is a way of coming close enough to that actual beat rate for the EBVT to work correctly.
Maybe you could explain the method to get the right beat rate for the initial F3A3 without beat counting, which we can read on your website instructions for EBVT, though you do not credit the inventor of that method, which is me.

Kees

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: DoelKees] #2682726
10/17/17 12:59 AM
10/17/17 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by BDB
The methods and techniques that I was criticizing were your explanations and writings. I have a college degree in literature, so I certainly have the knowledge, experience and understanding to do that.

LOL, "I have a college degree in literature so I am qualified to criticize Einstein's papers on relativity".
Sorry, I couldn't resist that, I'll stay out of this pseudo "discussion".

Kees


Well, it helps me criticize Einstein's papers on the basis of how well they are written. Einstein, in fact, wrote very well. His papers are quite understandable for those who know the mathematical and physical concepts, unlike the writing of several people here who write about tuning.


Semipro Tech
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: DoelKees] #2682731
10/17/17 01:47 AM
10/17/17 01:47 AM
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Madison, WI USA
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
You are certainly right about no person on earth being able to tune a M3 at exactly 6 bps but there is a way of coming close enough to that actual beat rate for the EBVT to work correctly.
Maybe you could explain the method to get the right beat rate for the initial F3A3 without beat counting, which we can read on your website instructions for EBVT, though you do not credit the inventor of that method, which is me.

Kees


Doel, I have never used your method although I did find it to be unique and very innovative. The problem I have with it assumes that the CM3's are infallible but they are not. It is always a judgment call.

My website is severely out of date but that is what happens when a guy offers to do it for free which he did. Now, I can't change anything on there. The administrator has moved on to other pursuits and tells me that he will not have time for it "in the next few weeks" (which was a month ago). I don't know of a single person who ever used your method for determining 6 bps. In any case, I thank you for the effort. It shows the truly thinking and searching for the truth kind of mind that you have.

The way I think of the 6 bps is that it is slightly slower than the 7 bps of ET but quite replicable when the tuner has a good sense of a single second of time. The metronome can be used if one wants to use it. 6 beats per second is 2 sets of 8th note triplets in one tick of a metronome set to 60. One set of triplets set to a metronome set at 120.

I have also been able to set the initial 6 bps very accurately by ear and then comparing it to an F3 set at +1.0 and A3 set at 0.0, both set on their 4th partials. That means that the F3-A4 M3 is slightly narrow of where it would be in ET.

I am quite sure however, that if I set the F3-A3 M3 at what I thought would be exactly 6 bps, the software that you use would not find it to be exactly 6 bps but rather a small amount other than that. 6.1 or 5.9 or whatever. The thing is that either one would not really matter unless the the intended 6.0000000000000 is too far from the intended goal.

The same happens in ET aural tuning. If the initial set of CM3's is not quite sufficiently accurate but thought to be so, the rest of the temperament will not work out. The "Up a 3rd, up a 3rd, down a 5th" sequence that I designed and teach to private students and at the PTG conventions quickly identifies whether the initial set of CM3's is correct or not. If the very next interval, F#3-A#3 does not progress properly and the two notes involved cannot accommodate a proper progression, then it means that the initial set of CM3's is not entirely correct and needs to be adjusted.

BDB likes to be the gadfly, to be sure. He knows it all already and anything he doesn't know already isn't worth knowing. He interprets what I say as not really important as an invitation to sloppy tuning. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am as much about precision as anyone could be.

The fact is that aural tuning cannot ever be reconciled to precise numbers and electronic tuning is also only an approximation. BDB may think he is the only one who knows everything and is the only one who can get it all right but whatever he does is also subject to the same scrutiny as whatever anyone else does,


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: BDB] #2682732
10/17/17 01:56 AM
10/17/17 01:56 AM
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Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by BDB
The methods and techniques that I was criticizing were your explanations and writings. I have a college degree in literature, so I certainly have the knowledge, experience and understanding to do that.

LOL, "I have a college degree in literature so I am qualified to criticize Einstein's papers on relativity".
Sorry, I couldn't resist that, I'll stay out of this pseudo "discussion".

Kees


Well, it helps me criticize Einstein's papers on the basis of how well they are written. Einstein, in fact, wrote very well. His papers are quite understandable for those who know the mathematical and physical concepts, unlike the writing of several people here who write about tuning.

Touche. I have to agree with you there. And of course you are familiar with Riemannian geometry and it's extensions inclusion metrical torsion?

Kees

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: DoelKees] #2682741
10/17/17 02:24 AM
10/17/17 02:24 AM
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Sadly, it has been many years since I studied metric spaces, and not having much need to use them, it has faded away. I have chatted with Joe and Lois Wolf recently, but they have passed the piano down through the family, so I only met them by chance, when a mutual friend died, and at a play we were both attending. I do not see as many mathematicians as I used to. Many of them that I knew have passed away.

The finer points I leave to those who need them. But I understand the general principals of relativity, and how the theories came about. It is quite clever, the way the thought experiments led to so many conclusions, all based on the simple assumption that some things are invariant.

I do not understand "it's extensions inclusion metrical torsion," but then, it makes no grammatical sense.


Semipro Tech
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: staveoff] #2682754
10/17/17 03:41 AM
10/17/17 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by staveoff
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by staveoff

I follow Tunelab into the treble for a time but then I ditch that near the high treble. Instead, I like to play a bass octave plus arpeggios in that key all the way up the keyboard. Whenever I do that I am "expecting" a certain sound at the top that I know immediately whether it is right or wrong (at least to my ears). I wouldn't be able to tell you what kind of octaves they are. My ears can't tell the difference between slight changes in the sound of the uppermost octaves (assuming that they are close to beatless) but I do know when they don't match the rest of the piano.


This method can lead to inconsistent results. Your sense of the right pitch will be different depending on what note melodies you play beforehand. It is much better to listen specifically to beats produced by specific intervals and to keep the tuning intervals following a systematic procedure.



Thank you for the suggestion and no doubt you are correct. I just can't discern the high treble beats and I haven't spent the time trying out settings in Tunelab to suit my taste. Perhaps as per Bill's suggestion I can try triple octaves.



For the very top octave however it is best to tune for nice clean octaves and check with the double octave. The result might sound flat to you if you judge the notes using rising arppegios, but if the rest of the piano is appropriately stretched then the top notes will be fine and sound good in the context of most real music.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: prout] #2682755
10/17/17 03:51 AM
10/17/17 03:51 AM
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Scotland
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Originally Posted by prout
Beemer,

Just to make sure we are all on the same page regarding EVBT ETD offsets for zero iH, the list Bill posted here a few posts ago matches with your downloaded file that you can no longer reference on the net. That file is not the one I used for tuning, and is not the one I found on the TuneLab software and not the one my tech tried on his SAT IV.

I will try Bill’s new aural instructions in a few weeks and maybe play around with the offsets on my own proprietary ETA.

Prout,

I had thought I must have been mistakenly downloaded the wrong file. Now that Bill has confirmed it in his new instructions I have altered my TuneLab EBVT file to these values and will re-tune today.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Beemer] #2682768
10/17/17 06:17 AM
10/17/17 06:17 AM
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Scotland
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I have now re-tuned to the (TuneLab) data in Bill's post. During tuning I was conscious that any change from my yesterday tuning using Robert's data was minuscule. By that I mean that the TuneLab spectrum display showed any change to be less than one cent. This has confused me as the numbers from the two historical file versions appeared quite different.

Now I am wondering if TuneLab has to be handled in a special way?

I opened my Blüthner tuning file and checked that the inharmonicity measurements were present.
I then selected EBVT (from the file last modified to BB data) and started tuning.

Could it be that TuneLab needs to start with a "new" tuning and new inharmonicity readings before selecting a historical temperament? Perhaps Robert would confirm this?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Beemer] #2682805
10/17/17 09:30 AM
10/17/17 09:30 AM
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Madison, WI USA
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Ian,

You had better ask Robert Scott about it. Call him, he will explain everything.
952-933-3574


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Beemer] #2682861
10/17/17 01:46 PM
10/17/17 01:46 PM
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Hi Bill,

Thanks for your updated EVBT tuning instructions.

I have one issue though. The initial two instructions on setting A4 seem to be at odds with one another.

Tuning A3 to the fork yields a pure 2:1 octave, but, at least on my piano, a very narrow 6:3 octave beating at 2bps.

Tuning A4 normally to the fork and then tuning A3 as a 6:3 octave produces a wide 2:1 and 4:2 octave on my piano, but acceptable for the temperament. I would still prefer a mixed 4:2/6:3 A3/A4 as it sets up a +.4bps 2:1 and 4:2, cancelling the -.4bps 6:3.

Any comments?

Thanks.

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Beemer] #2682992
10/17/17 09:42 PM
10/17/17 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
I have now re-tuned to the (TuneLab) data in Bill's post. During tuning I was conscious that any change from my yesterday tuning using Robert's data was minuscule. By that I mean that the TuneLab spectrum display showed any change to be less than one cent. This has confused me as the numbers from the two historical file versions appeared quite different.

Now I am wondering if TuneLab has to be handled in a special way?

I opened my Blüthner tuning file and checked that the inharmonicity measurements were present.
I then selected EBVT (from the file last modified to BB data) and started tuning.

Could it be that TuneLab needs to start with a "new" tuning and new inharmonicity readings before selecting a historical temperament? Perhaps Robert would confirm this?

Ian


There should be no reason to start over with inharmonicity measurements. They are independent of any choice of historical temperaments. But it should be no surprise that the change from yesterday's tuning was less than one cent difference. From the numbers you posted at the beginning of this thread, Bill's numbers and TuneLab's numbers are generally less than half a cent apart.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: prout] #2682999
10/17/17 10:32 PM
10/17/17 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Hi Bill,

Thanks for your updated EVBT tuning instructions.

I have one issue though. The initial two instructions on setting A4 seem to be at odds with one another.

Tuning A3 to the fork yields a pure 2:1 octave, but, at least on my piano, a very narrow 6:3 octave beating at 2bps.

Tuning A4 normally to the fork and then tuning A3 as a 6:3 octave produces a wide 2:1 and 4:2 octave on my piano, but acceptable for the temperament. I would still prefer a mixed 4:2/6:3 A3/A4 as it sets up a +.4bps 2:1 and 4:2, cancelling the -.4bps 6:3.

Any comments?

Thanks.


It all depends upon how exactly you want the A4 pitch to be exactly A-440. I generally have to put tuning A4 from the fork in there for purist reasons. I choose a 6:3 type octave for A3-A4 thinking that it will generally work but the suggestion you have may actually work better. It just gets too complicated to suggest a compromise between a 4:2 and 6:3 type octave.

I have seen respectable technicians suggest that the A4 should be tuned at +2.5. It is all a judgment call. If I tune the A3 at 0.0 but read on the 4th partial and A4 at +1.5 as read on its 2nd partial, everything seems to work out. If you are tuning entirely aurally, I suggest tuning A4 to the pitch source and making the initial A3-A4 octave just a bit wider than a 4:2 octave for the EBVT.

Please bear in mind that for tuning ET, I suggest a strict 4:2 type octave for A3-A4. The difference is because the white note 5ths in the EBVT (or any other Well Temperament) are tempered more than in ET. To be able to reconcile the 4th, 5th and the octave will require a slightly wider octave.

In almost any Well Temperament however, the F3-C4 5th will be pure. That means that to have a nice pure octave and for the C4-F4 4th to also be pure, you will need a 4:2 type F3-F4 octave. All coincident partials will match.

When you expand outside of the temperament octave, in the EBVT or any other WT, the actual size of the octave will vary from note to note. In ET, that octave size will follow a smooth curve but in a properly executed WT, the octave size will vary from note to note. It will be a very small distinction, to be sure. That is why an electronically generated program may suffice to a large degree. Only a very discriminating technician may be able to improve upon an electronically generated program and only within the midrange.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: Beemer] #2683087
10/18/17 08:04 AM
10/18/17 08:04 AM
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Thanks for the explanation Bill. I prefer to keep the A4 reference consistent for recording purposes, though, in my ‘heart of hearts’, I would rather start on C4 and let A4 fall where it may according to my mood, or temperament, if you will. This is what I do on my clavichords.

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: prout] #2683149
10/18/17 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Thanks for the explanation Bill. I prefer to keep the A4 reference consistent for recording purposes, though, in my ‘heart of hearts’, I would rather start on C4 and let A4 fall where it may according to my mood, or temperament, if you will. This is what I do on my clavichords.


Starting at C4 makes sense to me considering EBVT is a type of temperament that would have been used before the A-440 standard. Plus, EBVT is based around C major and the circle of fifths progression. Is there a preferred frequency for C4? Does Tunelab permit you to tune based on C4 instead of A4?


Piano Player and DIY tuner
Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: staveoff] #2683153
10/18/17 02:07 PM
10/18/17 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by staveoff
Originally Posted by prout
Thanks for the explanation Bill. I prefer to keep the A4 reference consistent for recording purposes, though, in my ‘heart of hearts’, I would rather start on C4 and let A4 fall where it may according to my mood, or temperament, if you will. This is what I do on my clavichords.


Starting at C4 makes sense to me considering EBVT is a type of temperament that would have been used before the A-440 standard. Plus, EBVT is based around C major and the circle of fifths progression. Is there a preferred frequency for C4? Does Tunelab permit you to tune based on C4 instead of A4?
I don’t use TuneLab (I have it though and have used it once or twice on the past.), so I can’t answer your question. Sorry.

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: prout] #2683216
10/18/17 11:49 PM
10/18/17 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
Thanks for the explanation Bill. I prefer to keep the A4 reference consistent for recording purposes, though, in my ‘heart of hearts’, I would rather start on C4 and let A4 fall where it may according to my mood, or temperament, if you will. This is what I do on my clavichords.

Definitely off-topic, but I'm interested in how to tune a clavichord (as I have one on order). I tuned a friends but found any beat counting impossible due to the short sustain. Tunelab also couldn't help, due to the short sustain it can't detect pitch. I had to resort to the "common sense" method, which worked.

Kees

Re: Understanding EBVT III and Tunelab? [Re: DoelKees] #2683218
10/19/17 12:01 AM
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The other situation with a clavichord is that the pitch varies according to how deep you hold the keys.

But it all gets down to what I have said several times: Few instruments can be tuned as accurately as a piano. Or need to be, for that matter.


Semipro Tech
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